MESA Boogie Bass Prodigy Four:88

[Dingus]

[

Edited September 26, 2013 by Dingus

[Dingus]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1380218880' post='2222523']
Nice paragraph work, by the way.
[/quote]

I'm trying.

[discreet]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1380220364' post='2222554']
I'm trying.
[/quote]

You certainly are.

[machinehead]

Health care is not "free" in the UK. Neither are prescriptions (they are only "free" at the point of service) and all the other things you mention aren't free either. Someone is paying.

I have been paying for all these things, every month, by way of a deduction of a percentage of my wages, for 40 years and 23 days now.

And my parents did the same, as did my grandparents.

And part of our deductions are used to pay for those who rarely or never contribute. Those non-contributers get those services free. I don't and neither does any member of my family.

And, and, and, I own a Mesa amp. But I would be a difficult person to convince that there isn't an inflated profit to the UK importer - just because they can.

Frank.

[Dingus]

[quote name='machinehead' timestamp='1380229201' post='2222681']
Health care is not "free" in the UK. Neither are prescriptions (they are only "free" at the point of service) and all the other things you mention aren't free either. Someone is paying.

I have been paying for all these things, every month, by way of a deduction of a percentage of my wages, for 40 years and 23 days now.

And my parents did the same, as did my grandparents.

And part of our deductions are used to pay for those who rarely or never contribute. Those non-contributers get those services free. I don't and neither does any member of my family.

And, and, and, I own a Mesa amp. But I would be a difficult person to convince that there isn't an inflated profit to the UK importer - just because they can.

Frank.
[/quote]

Frank, the point is that we pay less for these things overall than you would need to do in America for the same levels of service and security . In the U.K, you have the peace of mind of knowing that certain things will always be provided for you and your family whether you are able to contribute a lot , a little, or nothing at all .

You and your family may contribute towards the NHS , but even with a lifetimes contribution you might well not actually pay for the actual cost of the care you may need to receive. And prescriptions are subsidised by the State for everyone , bearing in mind the actual cost of the drugs to the NHS. You and your family are paid for by others better off than you in just the same way that you pay for people who are unable to pay as much as you and your family . I have spent just about my entire adult life living between Britain and the U.S.A , and in America you have to pay a very significant portion of your income for far less security. Do you really believe that if you had a similar level of income in America as you have here that you would have a lot more disposable cash to spend on these cheaper goods ?

Anyway, trying not to stray too far off the point, if you consider the cost of shipping, import duty and VAT , I really don't think the importer will be making an excessive profit . Most businesses work to fairly similar margin of profit, and in retail the magic figure is usually around 30%, in so much as that is what you can use as a starting point to discount from . That is what retailers want to make to remain profitable and therefore viable. Bear in mind that they are in business to make money, not to provide a public service, and these are luxury imported goods. It isn't really reasonable or realistic to expect them to be sold at anything less than the maximum price that the market will pay.

If the Government make it so that imported goods with a reasonable margin on them are quite expensive , then that isn't the fault of the importer, It's the fault of the Government . The consumer has then to make the decision whether the imported goods are worth a premium . Just like always with American- made equipment , you have to weigh up if you want to pay in pounds what the gear costs in dollars in the U.S.A when you could potentially get better value for money buying British-made goods. That is big part of why the powers that be deliberately make imported goods expensive, i.e to protect British companies and promote British-made goods to the domestic market . . It's the Chancellor of the Exchequer who is doing very well out of the price of Mesa gear in the U.K , not so much the importer. ( Westside Distribution up in Glasgow , I think?) That money the Chancellor gets from Mesa amp sales goes towards paying for the aforementioned services and subsidies we [u]all [/u]rely on and take for granted , hence the justification for the price in relation to what they cost in America.

Edited September 27, 2013 by Dingus

[brensabre79]

WOW! only page 2 and we've gotten into a political debate. Interesting though it is, I only wanted to know how much these amps were and where I can get one...

At the end of the day everybody in the chain is making money, the longer the chain gets, the higher the price gets. At some point though, this Mesa amp may get too expensive for most people to justify owning. So the chain has to break. e.g. the distributor won't bother to import them because nobody (or not many) will buy at that price. The fewer the orders, the more expensive it becomes to manufacture, supply, distribute etc.. The end result is nobody wins.

I had a chat with my local Mesa dealer the other day (who, incidentally didn't even know these were out yet, let alone how much they'd be) and heard him plea on the phone to his manager to see if they could get one in for me to try. It wasn't going well, they had a Mesa amp in before, for 3 years in fact, it was just too expensive for most people when compared to other lines they carry. Eventually they sold it, probably at near what it cost them (it kept getting reduced). So they couldn't really justify getting any more Mesa stuff in without a deposit. And so the chain breaks.

[molan]

Official update is that the Prodigy will not be shipping into the Uk for 6-8 weeks. There's a strong possibility that the, higher powered, Strategy may come in at the same time. Numbers will be very small for both heads to begin with.

Pricing may change - there were initial list prices for both but these are circa 6 months out of date and it's possible a completely new set of Mesa Boogie prices will be issued soon (this doesn't necessarily mean they will rise - the £ has improved against the $ in recent months).

With reference to an earlier question - there is no fixed pricing agreement in place for Mesa Boogie products. Dealers may choose to stick to RRP but that is their prerogative and not anything that could be enforced by a manufacturer (I have a feeling it's not even allowed legally in the EU).

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1380278658' post='2223123']
With reference to an earlier question - there is no fixed pricing agreement in place for Mesa Boogie products. Dealers may choose to stick to RRP but that is their prerogative and not anything that could be enforced by a manufacturer (I have a feeling it's not even allowed legally in the EU).
[/quote]

Ah - understood. I know they do in the US, but wasn't sure if that was the case in the EU.

[molan]

As someone who helps out at a retailer from time to time I see a fair bit of what happens 'behind the scenes' with regards to manufacturer pricing, distributor mark-ups, recommended retail prices and, possibly most interesting, customer demand.

This could potentially be a long debate (and maybe this thread isn't the best place for it!) but as it's been raised with regards to Boogie pricing I'll give some, [b]very personal,[/b] views about some of this.

Let's start with what the customer wants in a perfect world:

Full manufacturer range availability to test and compare at a UK outlet (ideally at something approaching gig volume and for at least 30-40 minutes).
A second complete stock of every item so he/she doesn't have to buy the item he's just tested at full tilt (and may have been previously tested by others).
A significant discount on the item just demo'd if the second, unopened box, item isn't in stock.
If full range isn't available then the potential to order with delivery within 7 days.
Prices that match those available in the country of manufacture or final assembly (but only if these are lower than the country of purchase - this isn't always the case).
An option to return the item within a fixed period, usually 7 days, if he/she doesn't like it after using at a rehearsal/gig.
UK based warranty & returns with full spare parts availability for near-immediate replacement & return.


I realise that it may sound like I'm going over the top here but I've heard people ask for all of these things both here on BC and at the showroom where I help out. Obviously individual people may only want one or two of these things but any UK seller has to think about potentially providing all of them.

I think it should be pretty obvious that these desires are unlikely to be achievable in almost every case, [i]without carrying a cost,[/i] and there are lots of reasons why.

[b]Taxes[/b]
One of the very simplest (as mentioned above) is good old VAT & import duties. Taking the USA as an example I think the highest State sales tax is around 6.5% (the lowest is 0%!). Anything hitting the UK will have a straight 20% added immediately. There's then an import duty levied of circa 3%. These charges are added not only to the cost of the item but also any shipping costs. Many importers also whack a fixed admin cost on top.

[b]Local Distributor[/b]
This is often a cause of great gnashing of teeth amongst UK buyers. The cost of the 'faceless' distributor who does nothing other than ship products from the docks/airport to the retailer.

In most cases of higher end instruments and amplification/cabinets this view could not be further from the truth. Without a distributor each dealer would have to deal direct with the manufacturer. This immediately increases the amount of time and admin from the retailer's point of view, which has to carry some sort of additional cost. More importantly it does exactly the same at the manufacturer's end. Suddenly they have a clutch of retailers clamouring for product and asking for shipping quotes and delivery timetables. In order to meet this demand, guess what happens - they have to employ more staff and cover their costs by putting prices up. Either that or their timetable 'fall over' and stuff gets delivered late and/or incorrectly.

Often the most important thing the distributor does is to stock items locally or at a regional hub. I cannot over-state how useful this is. Many manufacturers build on a relatively low production basis - Boogie are absolutely one of these. If a distributor didn't hold reasonable stocks locally then every item could potentially be a bespoke order. You then need to factor in a build time of maybe 6-8 weeks and, if something is even remotely heavy, then a sea freight delivery of another 6 weeks. Potentially another week to clear customs as well. Suddenly you're into 3 month delivery times.

Also have to bear in mind that shipping individual items is incredibly expensive relative to the unit price of the item. I recently saw a quote for a 15" extension cab from one builder that was greater than the cost of the cab itself! Bulk shipping of cabinets is definitely the norm and significantly reduces prices. However this needs a fair bit of capital outlay and, as most people know, cost of capital is not cheap.

Distributors will also often take a risk on a new product that a retailer might be wary of stocking - another Boogie issue.

Anyone who's bought direct from a low production specialist instrument maker will know just how frustrating and time consuming it can be - plus how rarely anything ever arrives when, or how, it's supposed to

[b]Retailers[/b]
I'm sure everyone has heard about the issues with retailer margins so i won't dwell on them. The costs involved in running even a half-decent retail operation in the UK, especially for a musical instrument specialist, are high. Cost of stocking goods and providing demo facilities can kill small specialist business - hence the tiny number of quality bass retailers over here.

As also stated above, the 'magical' retail margin always used to be 30% but this is often not achievable any more. I know of one, very high profile, manufacturer that has reduced dealer discounts to just 15% on one of their better selling ranges. With almost every buyer demanding a discount, and heavy competition from overseas online businesses with significantly lower overheads & far greater purchasing power, then average UK margins have fallen quite a long way.

Suffice to say that you won't meet a well-off bass retailer in the UK - or at least not one who's made much money from selling basses or amps!


If anyone really wants a system where there are no distributors, to get a decent stock of product in the country, sort warranty issues and to hold spares , or retailers, where you can go & actually try things out, and just to buy direct from a manufacturer (that's based thousands of miles away) then I wish them all the best of luck.

I hope this doesn't all sound too negative. Just trying to add a bit of personal perspective on why stuff often costs much more here in the UK than in markets like the USA. Of course the relative price will vary from brand to brand and Mesa Boogie may have a greater variance than others. I could probably sit down and work out a set of comparative costs and estimate how shipping, taxes, distributor, retailer margins etc effect this particular brand but maybe that's for another day

[wateroftyne]

Cheers, Molan - that's very insightful.

Out of interest, how to (for example) Aguilar manage it?

The DB751 is about £1800 in the UK and £1500 in the US.. unless my figures are wrong (which is likely).

[wateroftyne]

...and apologies for the thread derail :-)

[Dingus]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1380278658' post='2223123']
With reference to an earlier question - there is no fixed pricing agreement in place for Mesa Boogie products. Dealers may choose to stick to RRP but that is their prerogative and not anything that could be enforced by a manufacturer (I have a feeling it's not even allowed legally in the EU).
[/quote]

As I understand it, retail price fixing is even more illegal in the U.S than it is in the U.K . However, [i]resale price maintainance [/i], was ruled by the Supreme Court to be legal in the U.S.A in 2007. In the U.K it is illegal except when granted exemption in very special circumstances , but in practise it can be very difficult to prove in isolated cases , I expect.

These amps look the business to me . I hope they sound as good as they look! I wonder if they are going to do some specific cabs to pair it with?

Edited September 27, 2013 by Dingus

[Dingus]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1380282155' post='2223186']

The DB751 is about £1800 in the UK and £1500 in the US.. unless my figures are wrong (which is likely).
[/quote]

The point I was trying to make earlier ( but not very well , probably) is that if you are looking at the Dollar price and then comparing it to the price in U.K Pounds then that gives a very inaccurate idea of the true relative cost of consumer goods in Britain and the U.S.A. Not least of all , the domestic buying power of the dollar is not dictated by the exchange rate, and vice-versa. You need to start by looking at what a dollar will buy you in America and compare it with what 62 pence will buy you in Britain. You would find that in most instances a dollar would buy you closer to what a pound would rather than 62p , meaning that , on the face that alone the goods are even more expensive than you think. You then have to factor in wages, and levels of taxation and social security and a whole host of other factors. All told, we pay a bit more than in America in real terms, but , very significantly, we don't really pay any more for American goods than Americans pay for imported goods from the U.K , undermining somewhat the idea of "ripoff Britain".

The most feasable way for companies like Mesa to sell at a more competitive price in the U.K would be to set up production in Europe to take advantage of the E.U , but would you want to buy the same products made in a "satellite" factory? How long would it be before we were having threads on Basschat discussing whether the Mesa amps made in Denmark were as good or sounded the same as the ones made in California? We all know which ones would end up being most desirable.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1380284675' post='2223250']
The point I was trying to make earlier ( but not very well , probably) is that if you are looking at the Dollar price and then comparing it to the price in U.K Pounds then that gives a very inaccurate idea of the true relative cost of consumer goods in Britain and the U.S.A. Not least of all , the domestic buying power of the dollar is not dictated by the exchange rate, and vice-versa. You need to start by looking at what a dollar will buy you in America and compare it with what 62 pence will buy you in Britain. You would find that in most instances a dollar would buy you closer to what a pound would rather than 62p , meaning that , on the face that alone the goods are even more expensive than you think. You then have to factor in wages, and levels of taxation and social security and a whole host of other factors. All told, we pay a bit more than in America in real terms, but , very significantly, we don't really pay any more for American goods than Americans pay for imported goods from the U.K , undermining somewhat the idea of "ripoff Britain".

The most feasable way for companies like Mesa to sell at a more competitive price in the U.K would be to set up production in Europe to take advantage of the E.U , but would you want to buy the same products made in a "satellite" factory? How long would it be before we were having threads on Basschat discussing whether the Mesa amps made in Denmark were as good or sounded the same as the ones made in California? We all know which ones would end up being most desirable.
[/quote]

Ta for that - I'm not sure if you meant to quote me, but my post was just me wondering out loud why Mesa's UK pricing seems so extreme compared to, say, Aguilar.

Edited September 27, 2013 by wateroftyne
typo

[Dingus]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1380284829' post='2223254']
Ta for that - I'm not sure if you meant to quote me, but my post was just me wondering out loud why Mesa's UK pricing seems so extreme compared to, say, Aguilar.
[/quote]

I need to learn to read the post properly before I reply. ( Then again , it has never stopped me before...)

Maybe Mesa see themselves as having more upmarket and exclusive products than Aguilar . Going back to when they first came out in the '70's, Mesa Boogie amps have a certain mystique to them , and the company will ( and should) be aware of that and want to exploit that perception of their products to the full .

[molan]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1380282155' post='2223186']
Cheers, Molan - that's very insightful.

Out of interest, how to (for example) Aguilar manage it?

The DB751 is about £1800 in the UK and £1500 in the US.. unless my figures are wrong (which is likely).
[/quote]


[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1380286693' post='2223292']
I need to learn to read the post properly before I reply. ( Then again , it has never stopped me before...)

Maybe Mesa see themselves as having more upmarket and exclusive products than Aguilar . Going back to when they first came out in the '70's, Mesa Boogie amps have a certain mystique to them , and the company will ( and should) be aware of that and want to exploit that perception of their products to the full .
[/quote]

I think there's a pretty simple explanation (unfortunately!).

Aguilar are one of the manufacturers that have, historically, sold direct to dealers in the UK. This has resulted in generally lower pricing but sporadic stock availability and long time windows for new orders.

If you had hunted around a few months back for quite a few of their most well known cabs - say a DB112 or 212 in a 4 ohm format you'd have discovered virtually none available in the whole of the UK. Ordering a new one would have been approx 6 weeks in the build schedule and then around 4-6 weeks for sea shipping. Pretty much the same story for a DB751, for a while there were absolutely no new ones available for sale in the UK (although I know of some Aguilar stock that's being sold as 'new' which is actually ex-demo show stock).

If you'd asked for a single cab you would probably have simply told there wasn't any stock and you couldn't get one unless you wanted to pay for individual cab shipping (which would have been a fortune).

End result was potentially low prices but limited availability.

However, Aguilar have moved to a UK distribution model. Check prices for the DB751 now and you'll spot a couple that were ordered before the new deal that may be available at the old price, ex-demo stock that's risen to £1,900 and prices from one of the online only suppliers already hitting £2,149.

The upside is that, from mid-October you'll start seeing much wider availability of all Aguilar products and a lot more dealers able to supply them.

In a way it sums up what I was saying above - it's really tough to please all the people all the time

[tonyxtiger]

Westside expect these mid December. Hope no one is in a rush. I'm having to curtail my excitement now.

[molan]

[quote name='tonyxtiger' timestamp='1380646217' post='2228413']
Westside expect these mid December. Hope no one is in a rush. I'm having to curtail my excitement now.
[/quote]

I hear there may be both models available then

[lowerbassment]

Nice demo video from Mesa now up

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b3tgaUcMBc

[Musicman20]

Very interesting demo! Depending on price this may be a very popular amp.

[EBS_freak]

Interested in hearing this bad boy.

[molan]

Checked again on Monday and still no definite UK prices or confirmed delivery dates

Vague hints they may be more than initially predicted. . .

[EBS_freak]

[sup][quote name='molan' timestamp='1382542412' post='2253438']
Vague hints they may be more than initially predicted. . .
[/quote][/sup]

[sup]Mesa not keen on selling many then? [/sup]

[molan]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1382543458' post='2253464']
[sup][/sup]

[sup]Mesa not keen on selling many then? [/sup]
[/quote]

Small company, not super equipped to deal with high demand surges.

That's what it feels like to me anyway!

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1382543978' post='2253477']
Small company, not super equipped to deal with high demand surges.
[/quote]