Bowing Technique

[Tait]

I've been playing double bass for a little while now but always pizzicato. Recently I decided to learn to bow (and read music at the same time, but that's another story!), so having finally got round to it I've read two books describing how to hold the bow and also watched plenty of videos on Youtube. However whenever I try I'm getting a lot of pain in my right hand in the sort of fleshy bit next to the thumb, it always goes tense and sort of cramps up.

I'm guessing this is something to do with my bowing technique being wrong, but I'm not sure what is wrong with it. Any suggestions? One thing I have noticed is all the videos say your hand should be relaxed, and whilst my fingers are curved and relatively relaxed, I'm having to really push down with my thumb to balance the bow in my hand (obviously holding the bow at the frog end of the stick means it wants to topple out of your hand, to counter this I'm having to apply a lot of force with my thumb to keep it balanced).

I'm a student with little time and even less money, so getting a proper double bass teacher isn't an ideal option, although I know it's probably the best way to have my bowing technique properly sorted out.

Thanks for any hints/tips!

EDIT: Also, a cello playing friend of mine said when he first started his hand hurt a lot, it's just a matter of taking lots of breaks until you're used to it, especially since I'm a leftie so my right hand probably isn't particularly strong. So it could be that, but I haven't played since yesterday and I could barely make it through two 8 bar practice excercises in my book.

Edited September 26, 2013 by Tait

[ubassman]

Practice just holding your bow for long periods of time - watching tv for example. The thumb wants to be bent into the frog rather than being rigid and stuck out . I suspect that you may be trying to apply force with your hand muscles when you bow. You should use your arm weight . Theres a lot to get under your belt when you start bowing - it would be good to take the plunge and get some lessons at least to start with so that you can play pain free and get a half decent sound. Good luck with it !

The other thing to try is playing with a German bow - its not as hard to deal with the overhand grip of a French bow when you first start out however the world is split by those who swear that French Bows give better finesse and those who say not !.

[ubassman]

BTW what books have you been reading ?

[Tait]

Total Jazz Bassist gives a brief overview of how to hold the bow, but the main one is Essential Elements 2000 For Strings, it's actually a really good book, it's got a lot of both bowing a pizzicato exercises and stuff in, and it's also really good for learning to read music as well.

And the problem with lessons is not just the cost, I do a pretty busy course at University and then I also do fencing 4 nights a week, I really don't have that much time to fill with double bass lessons. It's doable, but not ideal. Might be that I just have to take that plunge.

How do you mean use my arm weight? How could I use the arm to pivot the bow to keep it straight?

Edited September 26, 2013 by Tait

[Basstroker]

If you just hear a good bass player it is impossible to tell if he/she is playing "German" or "French". Everything is possible with both styles. But "German" is easier to learn. The bow's frog should not be too big in the beginning! Important: Back of the hand and outside of the forearm must be straight in one line but never cramped. The arm should be quite straight with an angle of about 80° at the elbow but also not cramped. Most force and movement run out the laid-back shoulder. Some lessons in the beginning are very helpful. Here again the differences between German and French: [url="http://www.silviodallatorre.com/index.php?language=en&hauptrubrik=double-bass&thema=7"]http://www.silviodallatorre.com/index.php?language=en&hauptrubrik=double-bass&thema=7[/url] . - Best, Thomas (Hope you unterstand my "English")

[ubassman]

[quote name='Tait' timestamp='1380212299' post='2222411']
How do you mean use my arm weight? How could I use the arm to pivot the bow to keep it straight?
[/quote]

Hope this helps explain..

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVUQTw-7ysM&feature=player_embedded#t=94"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVUQTw-7ysM&feature=player_embedded#t=94[/url]

[SevenSeas]

[quote name='Tait' timestamp='1380212299' post='2222411']
Total Jazz Bassist gives a brief overview of how to hold the bow, but the main one is Essential Elements 2000 For Strings, it's actually a really good book, it's got a lot of both bowing a pizzicato exercises and stuff in, and it's also really good for learning to read music as well.

And the problem with lessons is not just the cost, I do a pretty busy course at University and then I also do fencing 4 nights a week, I really don't have that much time to fill with double bass lessons. It's doable, but not ideal. Might be that I just have to take that plunge.

How do you mean use my arm weight? How could I use the arm to pivot the bow to keep it straight?
[/quote]

I strongly recommend Simandl, I'm still going through the book now, the process is very slow but if you stick with it the results will be great. Also I had a very similar problem and the only way I sorted the issues was going to see a classical tutor, I recommend someone who either A) Plays classical music to a professional standard. Could be a jazz double bassist if they have had some classical training.

I looked at many videos but still found it was no comparison to having a lesson, even if it's just a one off.

[SevenSeas]

[quote name='SevenSeas' timestamp='1380268847' post='2222951']
I strongly recommend Simandl, I'm still going through the book now, the process is very slow but if you stick with it the results will be great. Also I had a very similar problem and the only way I sorted the issues was going to see a classical tutor, I recommend someone who either A) Plays classical music to a professional standard. Could be a jazz double bassist if they have had some classical training.

I looked at many videos but still found it was no comparison to having a lesson, even if it's just a one off.
[/quote]

Ah.. I didn't realised you were learning to Read. Simandl starts off okay to read but it has some horrible notation such as double sharps and flats which can be annoying.

[FLoydElgar]

George vance progressive double bass volumes 1-3 ( I think there may be more cant remember)

It takes you straight into making music and is a great little beginners book.
It is a rabbath book which is another story which if it interests you check out the techniques.


A tutor is advised with the bow as its a difficult beast to tame...
Good luck with what ever you decide

[fatback]

I had exactly the same problem with pain in that part of the hand when i started bowing. I discovered that it was because my YitaMusic bow, although fine in most respects is a little tip heavy.

I found that the pain came from having to use the thumb to add weight to the frog end of the bow. If I moved my grip a couple of inches further up the bow towards the tip (same grip shape) until the bow balanced, I got no more pain. And I was able to use arm weight more than before.

Since my hand has strengthened a bit with practice, I've been able to move back down frogwards a little, but I still find everything works much better if the bow feels perfectly balanced.

I'm still rubbish, of course. But rubbish and pain-free.

And Rabbath's Art of the Bow vid is the best thing out there. All imo of course.

Edited September 27, 2013 by fatback

[Tait]

[quote name='fatback' timestamp='1380274850' post='2223052']
I had exactly the same problem with pain in that part of the hand when i started bowing. I discovered that it was because my YitaMusic bow, although fine in most respects is a little tip heavy.

I found that the pain came from having to use the thumb to add weight to the frog end of the bow. If I moved my grip a couple of inches further up the bow towards the tip (same grip shape) until the bow balanced, I got no more pain. And I was able to use arm weight more than before.

Since my hand has strengthened a bit with practice, I've been able to move back down frogwards a little, but I still find everything works much better if the bow feels perfectly balanced.

I'm still rubbish, of course. But rubbish and pain-free.

And Rabbath's Art of the Bow vid is the best thing out there. All imo of course.
[/quote]

The bow being tip heavy sounds exactly like my problem! As I said in my first post, I'm having to use my thumb to force it upwards. I'll try holding the bow a little further up the stick, see how that works out. Thanks!

[fatgoogle]

What about extending your first finger a bit further down the stick.

[SevenSeas]

Also one other thing, make sure the bow isn't too tight! When you bow the string it should be flexible enough without touching the hair of the bow.
I use to tighten the bow way too much, until my teacher used my bow. This was probably my main reason and I haven't had any pain since.