Mid scoop

[action_panzer]

Bit of a random one here, but something that has occurred to me...

Why scoop the mids in a band where the guitarists also scoop the mids? I've tried it a couple of times and like the thump, but there's no definition and you have to be at silly volumes to be get through the mix, volumes where you're in danger of dominating the sound.

I'm not saying I'm a mids obsessed cut-through-the-mix guy, but I heard a band (who shall remain nameless) that used this set up, and I just thought it sounded crap.

[neepheid]

Sad face EQ in a live situation every time for me, irrespective of how I like it sounding when I'm playing solo.

[Lozz196]

It depends on what you`re looking from the bass. I scoop my mids, but no-one could ever accuse me of not being heard, and I don`t turn up much (vol on 3 on a 350 watt combo) I just prefer to have the bass as a foundation for the guitars to sit on. The trick when doing it though, is to make sure you don`t boost the lows too much. I agree that more mids equal better definition, but "my" sound is what works in my bands, I`ve tried other sounds and the rest of the band usually frown until I change back. I suppose though, seeing as it`s a Precision I play, and it`s low mids I cut, it`s not too drastic a move seeing as Precisions are low-mid-monsters.

[JTUK]

Depends where you can position the bass in your mix.... do you want it buried or mostly obscured by the overall band sound or do you want to hear every nuance and note... and you can't determine this all on your own...you have to have the other members buy into everyone having their layer.
If they are compliant, you will stand a very good chance of sounding good collectively...if they are not... then you will always struggle and odd rooms will defeat you easiliy. And if you allow volume to creep during the latter part of the set, you'll lose there as well.

In that sense, mid scoop or hump doesn't matter in the 1st instance...but becomes more critical with every stage of getting the band individual frequency settings or layers wrong

Edited September 27, 2013 by JTUK

[skychaserhigh]

It all depends on what frequencies the other instruments are using. The trick is to fill in the missing frequencies so that the band sound is full and nobody is clashing as much as possible. So if the guitarist uses a mid scoop the bass should fill in the mids and if the guitarist has a middy sound then maybe a mid scoop on the bass sounds good. It's not always that simple of course but that's the basic idea that I work on.

[bassmayhem]

It is no wonder a Fender Precision Bass always sits well in the mix. Its natural tone has a lot of "urrrp" and "cardboard box" qualities. A P-bass may sound dull, or even ugly, by itself but always good in the mix. Well, to the topic...

Scooping means "disposal of the cardboard box in your tone". The lesser cardboard box, the lesser you'll be heard. The most important thing is to sit down with the band mates and have the discussion: "Are we a bunch of soloists or a band?" In most of the cases the problem is that it gets crowded in the frecquency spectrum where the bass is. More and more drop tuned guitars and sub-woofered kick drums make our life a misery. Share the frequency spectrum! That is the solution in many cases. Anyway, a nice scooped sound is fine in a YouTube clip, but will make it harder to get heard. Like Lozz196 writes: "...[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]but "my" sound is what works in my bands...[/font][/color]" That's the thing. The main thing. Make it work! No primadonnas, but the whole ballet...

Edited September 28, 2013 by bassmayhem

[Conan]

Add to this the facts that some basses are naturally mid-scooped and so are some amps... and the whole "being heard" and "fitting into the mix" thing can get quite complicated!

[Karnage]

For a start, the mids on my guitars aren't scooped often, as that is where a guitar should be heard. Try getting one of those over-scooped Mesa sounds past a Hammond, you probably won't hear it! Does depend what's there as a whole.

The 'mid' frequencies for most bass sounds are actually the lower ones you want to hear from guitars and keyboards in a lot of situations. The 'mid' frequencies for the guitars are not in the same spot. They are at 1-2khz where bass guitar mids are 400-500hz or so. Take some out at times to let other sounds breathe. A messy bass sound can clog the entire mix and make everything sound messy (not just the bass) so it's always a careful balance, affected hugely by what else is in there with the bass.

That's why you get a lot of more 'scooped' bass sounds appearing (not lots of mid scooped out, just likely to have some scooped) where you have brighter guitars and lots of keys sounds, so everything gets it's 'spot'.

[xgsjx]

I suppose if everyone midscoops, it leaves a space for the vocals to sit.

Too often you get guitarists who don't scoop but boost the low mids & then all that can be heard, is them. I think it's important if there's 2 guitarists for them to have very different sounds or one set with very little in the way of mids & 'tother with little top end (both with very little in the way of bass), but it takes a bit of time to get guitarists to do this. My guitarists are now working quite well together.

Like is said above, it's about getting each instrument to fit & get the band sounding like a band & not a bunch of soloists.

[Paul S]

I think that very often bassist can take this too far and it is easy to end up with some awful tuba type noise. Yes, you can hear it in the mix but it isn't pleasant. One of the worst offenders I have heard recently was a gig by The Zombies. The bass sound was so harsh - either the soundman or the bassist (Jim Rodford) had got it completely wrong. It might have sat well in a punk band but not the Zombies. Of course it varies from song to song if you are playing covers and it entirely depends on the sound you want to generate but, as a rule, my bass isn't particularly noticeable except when it isn't there.

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='Paul S' timestamp='1380452073' post='2225356']
I think that very often bassist can take this too far and it is easy to end up with some awful tuba type noise. Yes, you can hear it in the mix but it isn't pleasant. One of the worst offenders I have heard recently was a gig by The Zombies. The bass sound was so harsh - either the soundman or the bassist (Jim Rodford) had got it completely wrong. It might have sat well in a punk band but not the Zombies. Of course it varies from song to song if you are playing covers and it entirely depends on the sound you want to generate but, as a rule, my bass isn't particularly noticeable except when it isn't there.
[/quote]
I agree with this! While it's wise to avoid removing too many mids, it's easy to come away from bass forums with the idea that you must not cut any mids, ever. Lots of players sit in the mix just fine using amps with the classic Fender tonestack with its built in dip around 500Hz ,like the Hartke LH500, Trace V-type, Alembic F2b and many, many more.

[Lozz196]

Yep, it`s all about the sound of the band itself. In my bands we have:

The Daves - 1, sometimes 2 guitars, drums, but the main guitar is a Les Paul, distorted, plenty of effects, playing punk covers. Do I want to get in the way, or work with the drums - the latter.

The Tuesday Club - 2 guitars, 2 basses, keys, 2 singers, drums, we`ve all got to fit somewhere, and the two basses especially have to make sure we`re sounding different, so mine is clean, mid-scooped, not much high end, whereas the other is twangy and a bit driven.

[Greggo]

After a long time of not having an amp in rehearsal room and having to DI, I'm having an issue getting my sound through the now repaired amp to be right and the info in this thread is useful. The guitarist is pretty mid heavy so I will try a reduction in mids to see if this helps me fit in better with band sound.

Using the DI seemed to work well, the EQ of the preset I used just seemed to work no ifs no buts. If I can't get it right with amp will just stick to DI.

Edited September 29, 2013 by Greggo