The transcribing process

[lobematt]

Hey guys, I've posted a blog post about some issues I've been having whilst transcribing, I'd love a bit of input from anybody else who transcribes on these forums!

Cheers!

http://www.mattlawtonbass.com/?p=429

[Hector]

There was a good thread about this over on the DB forum: [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/217259-is-it-really-just-as-simple-as-transcribing-records/"]http://basschat.co.uk/topic/217259-is-it-really-just-as-simple-as-transcribing-records/[/url]

[lobematt]

Thanks for that, I've checkout out that Dave Liebman article in the past too, maybe i should revisit that as it was particularly thorough!

[funkle]

My most recent epiphany was realizing that when transcribing, I was putting the horse before the cart - writing it out on paper before I had learned how to play it by ear first. Once I have reversed the process, I feel like I have been making more progress, though it is still slow! (That particular bit of advice came from a sax player, Bob Reynolds, BTW.)

I usually end up playing a bar or two from the tune, working at getting it right, then move along to the next bar, but running the bar or two from before that into it. You end up doing a lot of repetition as you learn the solo/bassline that way, and really internalise it. Repeat until whole section/song done.

Then I kind of go a bit along with the Dave Liebman article - wow that is a good article, and way more detail/depth than what I have tended to do....

I think tunes should probably be all learned by ear also, rather than from chord chart first. Time consuming though!

Doesn't the classic quote go 'The answers to all your questions are in your record collection'?

Edited September 29, 2013 by funkle

[funkle]

I'm going to stick the link to the Dave Liebman article here too - just for ease.

http://www.daveliebman.com/earticles2.php?DOC_INST=13

[Bilbo]

That Liebman article is gold dust.

[lobematt]

[quote name='funkle' timestamp='1380436260' post='2225107']
My most recent epiphany was realizing that when transcribing, I was putting the horse before the cart - writing it out on paper before I had learned how to play it by ear first. Once I have reversed the process, I feel like I have been making more progress, though it is still slow! (That particular bit of advice came from a sax player, Bob Reynolds, BTW.)
[/quote]

Yeah I think that's exactly it, that's how I've started working this week and it's much harder which means it must be more beneficial, right?!

[funkle]

[quote name='lobematt' timestamp='1380467333' post='2225687']


Yeah I think that's exactly it, that's how I've started working this week and it's much harder which means it must be more beneficial, right?!
[/quote]

Takes ages....It feels a lot more satisfying though! I'm still trying to nail every single note absolutely perfectly of Skate U by Snarky Puppy - I think I've been working in it off and on for a month now! But it is really satisfying. The solo is pretty straightforward too, but just soon tasty and well phrased. I'm definitely learning some nice language for minor chords, though I'd say strictly speaking it's more big band funk than jazz. But it's what I wanted to do.

[funkle]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1380447036' post='2225242']
That Liebman article is gold dust.
[/quote]

So true. Whenever you ask someone what they do when they transcribe, you get a huge variety of answers, and there's Dave Liebman laying down some serious gospel.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1380447036' post='2225242']
That Liebman article is gold dust.
[/quote]

"In general the three part process involves at first saturated listening to the chosen
solo with the first goal being to sing along in scat fashion. A student should arrive at the
point that with or without the recording playing he can reasonably sing the solo. The
important musical skill acquired and honed in this process is pitch control without the
crutch of the instrument at hand, which will come later."

This is very important IMO. So many people learn parts by diving straight in, instrument in hand, noodling along to the track until they moreorless randomly hit on the right notes and in doing so deprive themselves of 90% of the potential benefit. I also find that I retain parts much better when I've thoroughly memorised the tune to something prior to working it out on the instrument.

Edited October 11, 2013 by bassman7755

[JapanAxe]

I generally get the piece down on paper (well Sibelius actually), check what I have written corresponds to what I am hearing, then work out how I am going to play the line.

[lobematt]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1381506836' post='2240075']
"In general the three part process involves at first saturated listening to the chosen
solo with the first goal being to sing along in scat fashion. A student should arrive at the
point that with or without the recording playing he can reasonably sing the solo. The
important musical skill acquired and honed in this process is pitch control without the
crutch of the instrument at hand, which will come later."

This is very important IMO. So many people learn parts by diving straight in, instrument in hand, noodling along to the track until they moreorless randomly hit on the right notes and in doing so deprive themselves of 90% of the potential benefit. I also find that I retain parts much better when I've thoroughly memorised the tune to something prior to working it out on the instrument.
[/quote]

I agree, this isn't something I've always done but the parts I have took this approach to do tend to stick a bit better.

[quote name='JapanAxe' timestamp='1381533197' post='2240540']
I generally get the piece down on paper (well Sibelius actually), check what I have written corresponds to what I am hearing, then work out how I am going to play the line.
[/quote]

This way I find really difficult, I find it turns into more of a sight reading exercise and detaches me from the music. Although I saw a video of Janek Gwizdala transcribing and he was pretty much doing it this way, just pen and paper and a keyboard and came back at it later with his bass. Horses for courses I suppose!

[funkle]

I've just bought Dave Liebman's DVD - The Improviser's Guide To Transcription' - http://www.jazzbooks.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=JAJAZZ&Product_Code=D148#.UmbAFBBbSIA - to see what it may offer in terms of concept.

I'll report back after it arrives and I get time to review it.

[lobematt]

Awesome man yeah let me know!

[funkle]

Ok, the DVD of Dave Liebman's is 1 hr 30 min long. I took notes. Will post up more later, but the written article referenced earlier in this thread indeed covers a lot of what is on the DVD. It's a great resource and very clearly lays out a path of what to do when you transcribe.

Interestingly he says the main bulk of transcribing should be done over a couple of years, often 3-4 hours per day though! Then you move past it, though you still learn music in general using transcription (as opposed to charts) thereafter and you continue to transcribe small sections of things selectively, as they interest you.

He also says you should transcribe only the greats during this period, as they represent the artistry others are trying to achieve. So, for starting transcription, Miles, Stan Getz, Paul Desmond, Wynton Kelly, for example. Then moving onwards after that. Also, each transcription and subsequent work will take so long you'd really better love the solo/that artist...

Well worth it.

[lobematt]

[quote name='funkle' timestamp='1385219606' post='2285733']
Ok, the DVD of Dave Liebman's is 1 hr 30 min long. I took notes. Will post up more later, but the written article referenced earlier in this thread indeed covers a lot of what is on the DVD. It's a great resource and very clearly lays out a path of what to do when you transcribe.

Interestingly he says the main bulk of transcribing should be done over a couple of years, often 3-4 hours per day though! Then you move past it, though you still learn music in general using transcription (as opposed to charts) thereafter and you continue to transcribe small sections of things selectively, as they interest you.

He also says you should transcribe only the greats during this period, as they represent the artistry others are trying to achieve. So, for starting transcription, Miles, Stan Getz, Paul Desmond, Wynton Kelly, for example. Then moving onwards after that. Also, each transcription and subsequent work will take so long you'd really better love the solo/that artist...

Well worth it.
[/quote]

Interesting stuff! I try and stick to as much Miles as I can when choosing pieces to transcribe, he really is the master!

[Bill]

I've got really into transcribing over the last 6 months and was using Window's Media Player for the slow down function to pick out notes more easy and clearly, but have just started a 30 trial of the software called 'Transcribe!' and it is so much better than WMP, you can slow it down by much more and the quality of the audio does not suffer!

What i tend to do is transcribe a few bar's but write it down along the way, and then spend some time getting those bar's to sound fluid and cemented into my muscle memory and move on from there.. at the moment i'm working on several of Hadrien Feraud's bass solo's and they are some of the hardest phrasing and note choicing pattern's i've ever come across, but i love the challenge and nothing more satisfying (IMO) than finishing a transcription of something you at first didnt think you would be capable of doing!

This is my first transcription of an old Hadrien Feraud bass solo that i uploaded recently!

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhwD_2IynJM"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhwD_2IynJM[/url]

Working on another solo of his at the moment, and it is 3 times as hard as that one! yikes!

[fatback]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1380447036' post='2225242']
That Liebman article is gold dust.
[/quote]

I thought all that would be way beyond me, but it quickly rewards the effort. Great.