Shockwave Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Hello all. This is more of a statement then anything. But I have never ever ordered anything custom and got it when it was promised. I generally take a lax approach to Custom built things because I don't want to antagonize the manufacturer, However I feel this has been taken advantage of by a number of builders. I have been given excuses time and time again as to why things are not completed, but I see builds being completed from orders made after my own and other evidence of dishonesty. Currently I am waiting on two sets of custom pickups by an un-named custom builder on another forum. Given a build time of 4-6 weeks, still waiting a year later. I have been nice up to a point but I have lost patience. The builder had some personal issues, but no longer and he has openly stated that he is building new orders ahead of mine and is calling me unreasonable. I have a bass being made by a builder on this forum at a cut price. It was ordered this time last year and was supposed to be finished by Easter/April time. I have been asking for a proper honest update for the last month but with no reply. I have a bass being built by another builder not based on any forum, ordered a year ago. It seems to be finally getting built, but I had to be persistent in my calls and is the only builder I know in person. Even though waiting for a custom bass for 6 months to a year is not considered a long wait by many people, I do expect builders to stick to the build times given and not to take advantage of my good cheer. When I start chasing up on orders more insistently via Email typically they say nothing. And when I feel I have no choice but to vent on a public forum, they try to go damage control and make me look unreasonable. All I ask from these custom builders is absoloute honesty in their communications with me and what they are working on. Constant lies catch up with you at some point and just because I may only know you through the internet, does not give you the right to ignore me more then any other customer. That is all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamdenRob Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 This has also been my experience... I understand things get complicated but there is no excuse for quoting inaccurate build times... If it's going to take a year, say its going to take a year, then everyone is happy. Don't say 20 weeks then not even start it until after this date... I appreciate this is not all builders, I recently inquired about ordering a Wal and the build time was 17 months. I was not prepared to wait so I didn't place the order, however I have no problem with this as I was given the full story upfront. It's very frustrating as I feel this country has lots to offer with regards to custom build basses, but the lack of clarity in build times will stop me from ordering again. I can't see this happening with Sandberg... Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 [quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1380530566' post='2226497'] I can't see this happening with Sandberg... [/quote] To be fair, its not fair comparing the small independent luthier with the likes of cnc based sandberg... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fretmeister Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 As long as a customer has not changed the specs on the way, after the end of a quoted build time the customer can sue for a refund of whatever has been paid. The court is likely to expect the customer to have given the builder a little extra time because of the old 'you can't rush a craftsman' idea, but certainly when the builder has had another 25% or 50% of the time stated the court will not be on the side of the builder. Especially when the builders are usually silent / non-responsive to emails and even abusive to those doing nothing more than asking what the builder is doing with money that has already been handed over. Name them, shame them and sue them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andydye Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 I've had no problem with Alan at ACG either in his communications or in his timely and dilgent working. I have heard horror stories of other builders though which make me sad! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbird Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 I think they should be named and shamed that might help them get there a@@@s in gear? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4 Strings Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 I'm not having that experience with Ruach, although the build has currently lost a bit of momentum while they await the arrival of hardware etc (mostly from independent makers!). I get almost daily updates and pics and I have sent them a nauseating amount of emails with suggestions, pics, ideas etc, all cheerfully received and replied. They have also popped round to my house when in the area to drop colour samples, show me wood etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamdenRob Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 [quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1380530924' post='2226502'] To be fair, its not fair comparing the small independent luthier with the likes of cnc based sandberg... [/quote] Surely the construction methods are irrelevant? I'm talking about sticking to a quoted build time. I understand that to hand make everything takes longer but that's not an excuse for quoting inaccurate build times, just quote a longer timescale... but still stick to it. I also have to quote deadlines in my job. If things are tight I will allow extra time in my deadline to cover any disasters or unforeseen events, the timescales I quote are longer than the actual time it will take me to do the work, this is because my deadlines are then promised to clients further up the line. Missing them is not an option, if I was to miss a single deadline I would never work in the industry again. This is not a problem, I just ensure I never miss them. I would imagine this is the case for a lot of people... Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shockwave Posted September 30, 2013 Author Share Posted September 30, 2013 [quote name='Thunderbird' timestamp='1380531914' post='2226517'] I think they should be named and shamed that might help them get there a@@@s in gear? [/quote] I don't mind naming and shaming 2 of them eventually if nothing is done. As stated above, the problem with naming and shaming is that I do not want to give them the opportunity to imply that I am the unreasonable one. I want the product I ordered, not more delays or throwing the toys out of the pram because I complained about them online. One of the builders seems to have gotten the message that I wont tolerate anymore delays and are starting to send me constant updates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbird Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 [quote name='Shockwave' timestamp='1380532178' post='2226524'] I don't mind naming and shaming 2 of them eventually if nothing is done. As stated above, the problem with naming and shaming is that I do not want to give them the opportunity to imply that I am the unreasonable one. I want the product I ordered, not more delays or throwing the toys out of the pram because I complained about them online. One of the builders seems to have gotten the message that I wont tolerate anymore delays and are starting to send me constant updates. [/quote] I agree but from what you have said in your post I personally think you have been more than reasonable but whatever course of action you choose to take I wish you good luck with it mate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shockwave Posted September 30, 2013 Author Share Posted September 30, 2013 [quote name='Thunderbird' timestamp='1380532617' post='2226531'] I agree but from what you have said in your post I personally think you have been more than reasonable but whatever course of action you choose to take I wish you good luck with it mate [/quote] True... I don't really have any other options because they are either A. In a different country. B. Unreachable, or both. In which case, I made a mistake in stating that I wouldnt name them, I apologise. So here they are. I have been waiting for pickups from David at [b]SGD Lutherie [/b]based in New Jersey, there is a large Talkbass thread on it. I have been waiting on a custom bass that I got on the winter bass deal from Jon of [b]Lettsbass. [/b]I have been messaging him via Facebook for a while and he had always responded before the bass updates from him stopped, I know he has read my messages since but has chosen not to respond. However he is still posting updates of other basses he is building on Facebook. Neither are responding to communications and both are over double the time quoted. (And in case of SGD, 10 times the amount) Consequently, if anyone has contact numbers for these people it would be much appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jellyfish Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 I thought that Mr. Letts might be one of them. I was extremely close to pulling the trigger on one of his fantastic instruments but that was before I started talking to other luthiers. I saw a great bit of advice on these forums a while back that said one of the most important things when deciding on who you choose to build your bass is to decide based on your experience with the person in question, not completely on the instruments they build. I ended up contacting the guys that would end up building my bass, Alpher Instruments, and have not been any less than extremely happy with their enthusiasm and correspondence. They also have given me a rough time frame and if it's going to be late, I expect it to be a few weeks at most. I do feel sorry for anyone who has delays with their custom orders, and these is rarely a good excuse for them, but I judged my choice based on who seemed to be more enthusiastic and who actually got me more excited about the build as it went along. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 [quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1380532038' post='2226522'] Surely the construction methods are irrelevant? I'm talking about sticking to a quoted build time. I understand that to hand make everything takes longer but that's not an excuse for quoting inaccurate build times, just quote a longer timescale... but still stick to it. I also have to quote deadlines in my job. If things are tight I will allow extra time in my deadline to cover any disasters or unforeseen events, the timescales I quote are longer than the actual time it will take me to do the work, this is because my deadlines are then promised to clients further up the line. Missing them is not an option, if I was to miss a single deadline I would never work in the industry again. This is not a problem, I just ensure I never miss them. I would imagine this is the case for a lot of people... Rob [/quote] I agree - but the reality of the matter is, it isn't limited to guitar builders. It's pretty much universal in any small, cottage industry bespoke manufacturer. Ever order a custom pair of shoes or clothing? The point is, if you really want the product, you'll wait... especially if the manufacturer is making you something that is unique. Doesn't make it right... it's just the nature of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shockwave Posted September 30, 2013 Author Share Posted September 30, 2013 [quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1380535137' post='2226584'] I agree - but the reality of the matter is, it isn't limited to guitar builders. It's pretty much universal in any small, cottage industry bespoke manufacturer. Ever order a custom pair of shoes or clothing? The point is, if you really want the product, you'll wait... especially if the manufacturer is making you something that is unique. Doesn't make it right... it's just the nature of it. [/quote] Why make excuses for them? I just ask for honesty from the start to finish and I ask for a generous estimate with added time for it to be completed, however this leeway I feel it is treated by builders as time to just stop building altogether, or extra time not to start it for ages in the first place and I have not been given any reason to believe otherwise (Due to lack of communication, honesty or/and explanations). If I was given a valid reason as to why someone elses later order was built ahead of mine then I would be fine with it. The issues I have with these custom builders are not my fault and I should not be held to fault for their mistakes, dishonesty or lack of communication. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamdenRob Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 [quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1380535137' post='2226584'] I agree - but the reality of the matter is, it isn't limited to guitar builders. It's pretty much universal in any small, cottage industry bespoke manufacturer. Ever order a custom pair of shoes or clothing? The point is, if you really want the product, you'll wait... especially if the manufacturer is making you something that is unique. Doesn't make it right... it's just the nature of it. [/quote] Yeah your right. I'm not naming the builder in question as I'm only a few weeks over the quoted build time anyway and I've been kept informed with whats going on whenever I've asked (although if I'd been kept waiting as long as Shockwave I would be telling the BC community to avoid ordering). I guess its just a bit of frustration coming out as I'm impatient to get hold of what I'm hoping will be a fantastic bass. I'd be very interested to know of BCers who have had instruments built in the UK to the quoted build times? This will be my next choice for a custom build.... It doesn't matter how good something is if it doesn't arrive... Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4 Strings Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Do you have money tied in with the pickup order? Otherwise I think I would have cancelled it by now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shockwave Posted September 30, 2013 Author Share Posted September 30, 2013 [quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1380535951' post='2226600'] Yeah your right. I'm not naming the builder in question as I'm only a few weeks over the quoted build time anyway and I've been kept informed with whats going on whenever I've asked (although if I'd been kept waiting as long as Shockwave I would be telling the BC community to avoid ordering). I guess its just a bit of frustration coming out as I'm impatient to get hold of what I'm hoping will be a fantastic bass. [/quote] The point is, I haven't been given any updates and my communications that I know have been received have been ignored. I have every right, like anyone who has put money down on something to get their product at the time specified. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 The longer something takes to make, the more difficult it is to accurately estimate how much elapsed time it will take to find that time. People who are great craftsmen are not necessarily going to be great at running a business. My bet is that if someone says it will take, say, three months to build a bass then that's how long it will take - in man-hours. The problems arise when they get distracted and diverted from spending the required time on making that bass and are not good at managing that inevitable aspect of their business, so the timescale goes out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shockwave Posted September 30, 2013 Author Share Posted September 30, 2013 [quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1380536136' post='2226603'] Do you have money tied in with the pickup order? Otherwise I think I would have cancelled it by now. [/quote] Yes, $400 plus. And the pickup builder stated no refunds on specific custom orders like mine. If I want my money back I would have to chase him in court in New Jersey. But I don't want the money, I want the pickups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamdenRob Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 [quote name='Shockwave' timestamp='1380536185' post='2226604'] The point is, I haven't been given any updates and my communications that I know have been received have been ignored. I have every right, like anyone who has put money down on something to get their product at the time specified. [/quote] I agree with you wholeheartedly. I'd be doing exactly the same in your position... who knows in a couple of months I may be adding a name of my own to this thread. You are not being unreasonable and hopefully some good can come of this. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Cloud Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 I empathise...wholly unacceptable in my opinion. Disappointed to hear about Letts basses in particular. Would like to hear Jon's perspective on this (reputation is everything). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toasted Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 I've ordered two custom instruments - one Sadowsky and one Celinder and comms on both have been sensational. I think the Celinder deal was more down to The Gallery than Christian Celinder but it did arrive when I asked it to arrive. I've ordered many custom stompboxes and this has largely been a different kettle of fish. Toneczar and D*A*M have been amazing. I've been downright ripped off by a guy on HCFX called Hempathy who is still promising a pedal I paid for in .... [b]2007[/b]! Most of the others have been a bit late, but not crazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ras52 Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 [quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1380532000' post='2226519'] They have also popped round to my house when in the area to drop colour samples, show me wood etc. [/quote] Not meeting a deadline is one thing, coming to house to show you wood sounds like a police matter! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ead Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 [quote name='ras52' timestamp='1380539677' post='2226667'] Not meeting a deadline is one thing, coming to house to show you wood sounds like a police matter! [/quote] Just to re-iterate Eude's point above, the two ACGs that I specified and ordered both arrived within the promised timeframe and are both exactly what I wanted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Just on the flipside of your letter.... Alan at ACG, Chris and the Guys at Overwater, Rob and Dawn at Status Chris at Alpher, Aaron at whatever Aaron armstrong's pickup making business, Alex at barefaced apart from Alpher and ACG I've not bought from them, but in talking to all of them and the way they conducted themselves, I would trust them 100% in their integrity and communications. The good guys should be celebrated I think! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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