An open letter to Custom builders. (Update on Page 11)

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1382046710' post='2247363']
My understanding is that Fodera took on someone to specifically deal with the customer relations side of running the business.

If that's correct, then the above shows very much that it is working.

Of course not everyone can afford something like that as a small business...
[/quote] If I were a small boutique bass maker, like fodera, or even small scale like Letts or something, I would team up with a local shop for each territory and let them do the customer facing side, they get a few instruments in stock for folk to try and so on.
the public get to try your stuff, they're happy.
the retailer gets a cut and a sale, they are happy,
the builder gets to do less talking to the unwashed public - they are happy.

[ash]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1382047070' post='2247377']
If I were a small boutique bass maker, like fodera, or even small scale like Letts or something, I would team up with a local shop for each territory and let them do the customer facing side, they get a few instruments in stock for folk to try and so on.
the public get to try your stuff, they're happy.
the retailer gets a cut and a sale, they are happy,
the builder gets to do less talking to the unwashed public - they are happy.
[/quote]

Very well put I totally agree.

[skej21]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1382047070' post='2247377']
If I were a small boutique bass maker, like fodera, or even small scale like Letts or something, I would team up with a local shop for each territory and let them do the customer facing side, they get a few instruments in stock for folk to try and so on.
the public get to try your stuff, they're happy.
the retailer gets a cut and a sale, they are happy,
the builder gets to do less talking to the unwashed public - they are happy.
[/quote]

But often in that process, greed rears it's ugly head an the builder wants to take as much profit as possible for his/her incomparably excellent product...

Edited October 17, 2013 by skej21

[molan]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1382046710' post='2247363']
My understanding is that Fodera took on someone to specifically deal with the customer relations side of running the business.

If that's correct, then the above shows very much that it is working.

Of course not everyone can afford something like that as a small business...
[/quote]

Fodera do have someone who manages much of the customer facing business. However he does way, way more than just that. He oversees the complete 'front of house' operation, sorts all the logistics, selects most of the wood they purchase, keeps the staff happy, sorts out the healthcare (a major issue in the US!) and basically lets the two principal builders do what they do best - make basses

This has meant their production times are shorter, builds are more controlled and output has increased significantly.

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1382047070' post='2247377']
If I were a small boutique bass maker, like fodera, or even small scale like Letts or something, I would team up with a local shop for each territory and let them do the customer facing side, they get a few instruments in stock for folk to try and so on.
the public get to try your stuff, they're happy.
the retailer gets a cut and a sale, they are happy,
the builder gets to do less talking to the unwashed public - they are happy.
[/quote]

Fodera do both

They have a local dealer in most of their major markets and also have an internal guy who works closely with the dealers and/or deals direct with the public in markets where they don't have dealer representation. He also looks after artist liaison - a much trickier job than many people imagine!

Ritter now run a similar system with exclusive dealers outside of continental Europe (basically USA, Japan & UK).

Both of them aim to set prices that are identical from their dealers to those they would sell at to direct customers.

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='skej21' timestamp='1382047813' post='2247393']
But often in that process, greed rears it's ugly head an the builder wants to take as much profit as possible for his/her incomparably excellent product...
[/quote]

Trust me, most builders aren't in it for the money. If they wanted to make their fortune they'd take their skills to a real job with a regular income.
(we're obviously not talking about the Foderas of this world here)

[molan]

[quote name='Ou7shined' timestamp='1382049826' post='2247421']
Trust me, most builders aren't in it for the money. If they wanted to make their fortune they'd take their skills to a real job with a regular income.
(we're obviously not talking about the Foderas of this world here)
[/quote]

I've met the Fodera guys they definitely aren't in it for the money, lol.

I really can't imagine any luthier is making a lot out of making instruments.

[yorks5stringer]

The Luthier I worked for was working for well below minimum wage when he worked out the hours he'd put into an instrument vs the price he could charge for it....

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1382050532' post='2247430']
[b]I've met the Fodera guys they definitely aren't in it for the money, lol.[/b]

I really can't imagine any luthier is making a lot out of making instruments
[/quote]

Fair doos. I was only assuming so.

[quote name='yorks5stringer' timestamp='1382050899' post='2247435']
The Luthier I worked for was working for well below minimum wage when he worked out the hours he'd put into an instrument vs the price he could charge for it....
[/quote]

Sounds very familiar.

[Lord Sausage]

Well what i find hard to believe is how no Luthier has called themselves Lex!

[ras52]

[quote name='Lord Sausage' timestamp='1382085267' post='2247593']
Well what i find hard to believe is how no Luthier has called themselves Lex!
[/quote]

Luthy, luthier, luthiest?

[Fat Rich]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1382047070' post='2247377']
If I were a small boutique bass maker, like fodera, or even small scale like Letts or something, I would team up with a local shop for each territory and let them do the customer facing side, they get a few instruments in stock for folk to try and so on.
the public get to try your stuff, they're happy.
the retailer gets a cut and a sale, they are happy,
the builder gets to do less talking to the unwashed public - they are happy.
[/quote]

Dunno, it's another layer of communication that could go wrong. If the order goes through a dealer and the customer doesn't get the bass they wanted, chances are the dealer and the builder will blame each other and it's the customer who loses out.

I've ordered a few custom Status basses over the last couple of decades and it's good to go up to the factory and talk through the design with the guys who are going to make it, select the actual piece of wood and agree the position of the grain by placing the templates. I wanted a narrower string spacing at the nut and Rob Green made some while I was there so I could choose the one that felt best, likewise the spacing at the bridge. Talked to their carbon fibre guy to find out whether what I wanted was possible, talked to the paint guy to get make sure what I wanted would give a good result, talked to Rob about modifying the electrics.

If I'd gone through a dealer they're unlikely to know what is possible and what isn't and might say "no" because it's easier for everyone and more profitable.

[stingrayPete1977]

As i understand it places like bass direct are swamped with offers to stock these one of basses, but understandably they don't want hundreds of brands all offering different percentages only to take all the flak for mistakes and delays the builders make, read back through the thread would you want to be the public face for any of the brands mentioned for a very small cut of the proceeds?

[pierreganseman]

I am a happy owner of two custom sei basses.

I paid £3000 each.

Martin told me that to be able to actually make money out of sei basses, and live.... he'd have to charge minimum of £4000/4500 per bass and do only that....

he said quote "i don't even wanna know how much per hour that is.... still not much...."

cost of life is high in NY, like it is in london.... to be able to live good, and have a business that makes sense. Builders like fodera MUST charge a lot (all their employees have health insurance paid by fodera, which is a huge issue in the US as Barrie said).

And yes Martin could charge less, if he was living in a remote place up north or what ever...

Fodera would charge less if they were from arkansas.... ;-)...

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='pierreganseman' timestamp='1382098365' post='2247891']
... Cost of life is high in NY, like it is in london.... to be able to live good, and have a business that makes sense. Builders like fodera MUST charge a lot (all their employees have health insurance paid by fodera, which is a huge issue in the US as Barrie said)
......
[/quote]

And in Aberdeen is even higher than both.... although a pint is cheaper up here than it is "darn sarth".... it helps you to forget.

[shizznit]

I have owned 3 custom built basses. A Warwick, MTD and now my new Shuker. All three companies built me an awesome instrument that I was bowled over with. There is nothing to divide the quality of any of those companies products, but the customer experience will always be different for any brand that offer a custom order option due to resource.

The Warwick factory would put most car manufacturers to shame, MTD are a small operation with very high demand and Shuker is an even smaller business.

My Warwick was delivered within 7 months of me placing the order because they had sufficient resource to turn it around that quickly...plus the fact that they appear to have NASA designing their factory machinery! But, during the whole time I only had one moment of communication with them, which did nark me off at the time and I didn't feel like a valued customer. Everything felt very impersonal. The bass arrived a lot sooner than I expected, so it was all quickly forgotten about.

Mike Tobias at MTD delivered my bass after 11 months. But, he kept me well informed. I never chased him for updates...I received an email after any work completed on my instrument. It was a very nice experience and Mike is a very nice person to deal with. Over the years Mike has focussed more on the business and now has experienced and talented builders working with him. When he started MTD he didn't have much help for the first couple of years and, from what he told me, almost sent himself into an early grave due to the demand from customers. He once told me that if only dealt with one order at a time he could produce an instrument to his standards within 3 weeks. But, when you are managing 20 instruments at the same time...well...it doesn't take a genius to work that out. All it takes is for someone fall ill and an instant bottle neck occurs.

My new Shuker arrived this week after 19 months since placing the order. That is a long time by anyone's standards, but that was on both our parts. It should have taken up to 12 months, but Jon injured his hand quite badly whilst working and a couple of unavoidable circumstances thrown in for good measure. I was also out of the country for a while not long after the bass was originally due, so it was bad timing for both of us. Whilst I was away I asked Jon to give my build low priority until I came back so that he could catch up on other important things. It was a small measure, but there was no need to lay more pressure on Jon during a difficult time. I understand that Jon runs his business more or less on his own and has to juggle a lot of things that don't involve building instruments. The guy is incredible and I have a huge amount of respect for him and for what he does just to make a few quid. I have read a couple of comments on BC slating Jon, but I can assure you he is very committed to his craft and to his customers. I will defend him to the hilt. You would not believe what this guy has to do to build you a very high quality instrument.

So, would I go back to Warwick or go back to Shuker for my next bass? Hands down, I would give Jon my business again. When I picked up my bass for the first time I could instantly tell that a lot of skill and emotion went in to that instrument. I feels special...I can't really put it any other way. You can't put any price on that. I would have waited 24 months for it to be honest if I knew it was going to be that good. But, Jon really understood me as a musician and what I wanted. I am so pleased with the bass.

Listen, there is no excuse for poor communication. I also hate being kept in the dark, but most custom builders out there don't have the same resources or technology as Fender, Warwick, Ibanez...etc. Not forgetting their investors and share holders. When placing an order you have to treat the whole experience with a pinch of leniency. These guys work under enormous pressure to deliver a high end product for little profit...they do it mostly just for love of what they do. Not a lot of people fall into that category and I certainly wouldn't put those kind of hours into my job for little return. Cut them some slack.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Ou7shined' timestamp='1382104637' post='2248049']
And in Aberdeen is even higher than both.... although a pint is cheaper up here than it is "darn sarth".... it helps you to forget.

[/quote] ahh aberdeen - exactly what comes to mind when thinking about high cost places to live.

[largo]

[quote name='shizznit' timestamp='1382108507' post='2248145']
I understand that Jon runs his business more or less on his own and has to juggle a lot of things that don't involve building instruments. The guy is incredible and I have a huge amount of respect for him and for what he does just to make a few quid. I have read a couple of comments on BC slating Jon, but I can assure you he is very committed to his craft and to his customers. I will defend him to the hilt. You would not believe what this guy has to do to build you a very high quality instrument.
[/quote]

[quote]
Hands down, I would give Jon my business again. When I picked up my bass for the first time I could instantly tell that a lot of skill and emotion went in to that instrument. I feels special...I can't really put it any other way. You can't put any price on that. I would have waited 24 months for it to be honest if I knew it was going to be that good. But, Jon really understood me as a musician and what I wanted. I am so pleased with the bass.
[/quote]

I couldn't have said this better myself....

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1382109185' post='2248159']
ahh aberdeen - exactly what comes to mind when thinking about high cost places to live.
[/quote]

Shocking isn't it. Little old fishing town at the forgotten arse end of the country. However, precede the name with "[i]Oil Capital[/i] of [i]Europe[/i]" and it starts to make sense.... unfortunately.

[Nick Riffed]

I have seen bass players with amazing gear and not the slightest idea how to use it.
I have seen bass players with relatively mediocre gear making it really work.
Having the worlds best bass will not transform someone into the worlds best bass player.
I can see it being a massive leap of faith to get someone to build you something wonderfully unique and special but not purely to say that so and so built this for me if it looks like every other J or P bass and sound fairly much the same too, especially if you have been charged an additional couple of grand for the priviledge.
I think I would be a tad scared to take something rare, personal and unique to the sort of gigs I've played.
If I would loose sleep if it was stolen, I won't gig it.
If I couldn't take out my wonderful one off custom bass to show the to world, why would I bother getting one in the first place?
I have never had a bass custom built or had to deal with a luthier but I have dealt with various types of tradesmen/craftsmen over the years.
There seems to be very little mention of contracts of build schedules. Are you guys paying full whack up front?
Are you putting up a deposit? What?
I still have some doubts about whether a lot of these one offs aren't put together from bodies and necks that you can buy from various suppliers and slightly fettled with. You could be just forking out a load of dosh for someone to screw a neck on a body and bung some strings on it!
If, like me, you tend to play pubs and clubs, when the punters are dancing on the tables I doubt the thought in their minds is how much your bass cost and who made it.

Edited October 18, 2013 by Nick Riffed

[flyfisher]

[quote name='Ou7shined' timestamp='1382111442' post='2248202']
Shocking isn't it. Little old fishing town at the forgotten arse end of the country. However, precede the name with "[i]Oil Capital[/i] of [i]Europe[/i]" and it starts to make sense.... unfortunately.
[/quote]

Unfortunately is right . . . it certainly b*ggered up the price of my salmon fishing on the Dee.

[4 Strings]

[quote name='yorks5stringer' timestamp='1382050899' post='2247435'] The Luthier I worked for was working for well below minimum wage when he worked out the hours he'd put into an instrument vs the price he could charge for it.... [/quote]

Which is why shops aren't involved.

Same reason you can't buy BF cabs from a shop. Small businesses don't have the economies of scale to allow shops to take their cut and keep prices reasonable. My Ruach will be £13-1400, £7-800 of this is materials (including £60 just for the truss rod!) and there are several weeks of solid work involved. They are getting paid for the job, but this isn't massive income for them once you've also taken off workshop rent, tools purchase etc. They are at least as enthusiastic about the bass as me!

[4 Strings]

[quote name='Nick Riffed' timestamp='1382126194' post='2248505'] I have seen bass players with amazing gear and not the slightest idea how to use it. I have seen bass players with relatively mediocre gear making it really work. Having the worlds best bass will not transform someone into the worlds best bass player. I can see it being a massive leap of faith to get someone to build you something wonderfully unique and special but not purely to say that so and so built this for me if it looks like every other J or P bass and sound fairly much the same too, especially if you have been charged an additional couple of grand for the priviledge. I think I would be a tad scared to take something rare, personal and unique to the sort of gigs I've played. If I would loose sleep if it was stolen, I won't gig it. If I couldn't take out my wonderful one off custom bass to show the to world, why would I bother getting one in the first place? I have never had a bass custom built or had to deal with a luthier but I have dealt with various types of tradesmen/craftsmen over the years. There seems to be very little mention of contracts of build schedules. Are you guys paying full whack up front? Are you putting up a deposit? What? I still have some doubts about whether a lot of these one offs aren't put together from bodies and necks that you can buy from various suppliers and slightly fettled with. You could be just forking out a load of dosh for someone to screw a neck on a body and bung some strings on it! If, like me, you tend to play pubs and clubs, when the punters are dancing on the tables I doubt the thought in their minds is how much your bass cost and who made it. [/quote]

My custom Ruach is cheaper than a new Stingray, will arrive quicker and made of better quality materials and also made exactly how I want my bass to be. If it gets nicked, I'd have to order another, same as if a new MM got nicked.

[stingrayPete1977]

All my stingrays have arrived in the time it took to hand the cash over at the till

[4 Strings]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1382128779' post='2248557']
All my stingrays have arrived in the time it took to hand the cash over at the till
[/quote]

Haha, mine were always waiting for me for years before I even wanted them!

What is the waiting time for a specially ordered Stingray? I thought 5-6 months.

[stingrayPete1977]

I dont know as I have never ordered one, I go around every shop and try every bass in there then return to the first shop that stocked Stingrays and choose which colour I like before taking it home to set it up to my liking