stingrayPete1977 Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 [quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1380547821' post='2226843'] Which status in particular? [/quote]The one about your bad neck, maybe you need a lighter bass! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 I know of a few luthiers who are dependent on pick up and hardware suppliers for builds. But they're also custom builders and it doesn't make sense for them to stockpile for custom options. Thats just how it is. I like Wal, Ken Smith and Jaydee - they are more manufacturers than luthiers although they do have the luthiery skills to fall back obviously. But they offer their product warts and all on a take it or leave it basis. This means they can pre order components and can be a little more accurate with delivery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 [quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1380548661' post='2226859'] I know of a few luthiers who are dependent on pick up and hardware suppliers for builds. But they're also custom builders and it doesn't make sense for them to stockpile for custom options. Thats just how it is. I like Wal, Ken Smith and Jaydee - they are more manufacturers than luthiers although they do have the luthiery skills to fall back obviosly. But they offer their product warts and all on a take it or leave it basis. This means they can pre order components and can be a little more accurate with delivery. [/quote] I kinda get where you are coming from - they are custom in the fact that they supply a finite number of options... and as a consequence are more of an assembly line as opposed to a true custom shop. I can only imagine the frustrations of the guys that get orders such as - "Can you make me a xyz fret neck - I know you only seem to do 22". - cue a load of work in creating new drawings, jigs - etc. It's not business as usual. Now, rightly or wrongly, put yourself in the luthier's position, are you going to work on that bass that you know you can get out of the door and get some money in your pocket when times are tight because you've got the whole process of construction nailed to it's completion... or are you going to be interested in ignoring your bills and getting on with that one which is going to cost you more time and money than usual... and so starts the trend of delivery times slipping... So why do these guys agree to such changes? Because peversely, they need the money and need to take on that build! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 [quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1380548576' post='2226855'] The one about your bad neck, maybe you need a lighter bass! [/quote] Yeah, causes me a lot of pain, doesn't seem to lie right even now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Steinberger time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RhysP Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 [quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1380546521' post='2226795'] Great story! [/quote] Really? You wouldn't thinkg it was a "great story" if it happened to you, believe me. I was only in my late teens at the time; I'd ordered the bass with money from my first job & dealing with the whole thing was a f***ing nightmare. [quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1380546521' post='2226795'] Any pics of the band and your bass? [/quote] No pics - the whole incident got very nasty indeed. If I found & posted a picture people would be able to see the bass & therefore who it was made by & that's somewhere I really don't want to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geek99 Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 I don't think its unreasonable of shock wave at all. I've only done one custom build and although I didn't tie down precise dates, my item was delivered within a reasonable time frame and was worth the wait Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dingus Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 I've had numerous custom builds and special order basses done for me over the years , and all of them were, on the whole, overwhelmingly positive experiences in terms of the honesty and good intentions of the builders. However, I have learnt to take most projected delivery dates from smaller builders with a pinch of salt , as in practise they seldom are finished on time . The waiting for pickups/hardware from a third party excuse is [i]very [/i]common .( To be perfectly honest with you , I take most manufacturers claims for the superlative quality of their work with a pinch of salt, too , but that is probably a topic for another thread. ) The thing is , though , that custom bass building is not , on the whole, the kind of activity that attracts the most organised and hard-headed of businessmen, and I am sure a lot of these guys have the best of intentions but are out of their depth in trying to organise themselves , their resources and their time to meet their obligations to the customer. When you visit them in person , a lot of big- name custom bass builders are basically very modest cottage industries trying to subsist by doing what they love. I am not trying to excuse anybody who has behaved irresponsibly or dishonestly , but I cannot think that a lot of these " rogue" builders are in fact just hapless rather than malicious or conniving in any way to do people out of their money . What is for certain , however, is that if as a builder you take someone's money then you are morally obligated to honour that contract . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 I have to agree with Molan's sentiments above about naming those luthiers who do what they promise. Although I do understand the desire to name and shame, I much prefer the 'Name and Fame' approach. In other words, celebrate those who do what they promise to do. Surely, those luthiers with frequent mentions will attract further custom and so on. However, and here is the rub, almost all of the luthiers are very small businesses with an obvious limit to their time. The more they go out to promote the less build time and, unfortunately, delays. I would really like to encourage players to help in a positive manner and, if they are genuinely happy/thrilled/ecstatic then say so - often! I have no problem in praising the work and commitment of ACG, Ritter, and Marleaux - hopefully add Douglas at Eve to that list too. The more promotion we do for these luthiers the less time they have to go out and promote themselves. Although, I also have to agree that, at times, a name and shame is necessary. Could I suggest that before anyone parts with any amount of folding money that they post a query in the appropriate forum? Any reply doesn't have to be public but simply a PM - unless you really feel that strongly C'mon folks, praise where praise is due... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 [quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1380550265' post='2226902'] I've had numerous custom builds and special order basses done for me over the years , and all of them were, on the whole, overwhelmingly positive experiences in terms of the honesty and good intentions of the builders. However, I have learnt to take most projected delivery dates from smaller builders with a pinch of salt , as in practise they seldom are finished on time . The waiting for pickups/hardware from a third party excuse is [i]very [/i]common .( To be perfectly honest with you , I take most manufacturers claims for the superlative quality of their work with a pinch of salt, too , but that is probably a topic for another thread. ) The thing is , though , that custom bass building is not , on the whole, the kind of activity that attracts the most organised and hard-headed of businessmen, and I am sure a lot of these guys have the best of intentions but are out of their depth in trying to organise themselves , their resources and their time to meet their obligations to the customer. When you visit them in person , a lot of big- name custom bass builders are basically very modest cottage industries trying to subsist by doing what they love. I am not trying to excuse anybody who has behaved irresponsibly or dishonestly , but I cannot think that a lot of these " rogue" builders are in fact just hapless rather than malicious or conniving in any way to do people out of their money . What is for certain , however, is that if as a builder you take someone's money then you are morally obligated to honour that contract . [/quote] Best post of the thread I've read so far... (excluding my own, naturally ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 [quote name='Scooby' timestamp='1380550414' post='2226906'] I have to agree with Molan's sentiments above about naming those luthiers who do what they promise. Although I do understand the desire to name and shame, I much prefer the 'Name and Fame' approach. In other words, celebrate those who do what they promise to do. Surely, those luthiers with frequent mentions will attract further custom and so on. However, and here is the rub, almost all of the luthiers are very small businesses with an obvious limit to their time. The more they go out to promote the less build time and, unfortunately, delays. I would really like to encourage players to help in a positive manner and, if they are genuinely happy/thrilled/ecstatic then say so - often! I have no problem in praising the work and commitment of ACG, Ritter, and Marleaux - hopefully add Douglas at Eve to that list too. The more promotion we do for these luthiers the less time they have to go out and promote themselves. Although, I also have to agree that, at times, a name and shame is necessary. Could I suggest that before anyone parts with any amount of folding money that they post a query in the appropriate forum? Any reply doesn't have to be public but simply a PM - unless you really feel that strongly C'mon folks, praise where praise is due... [/quote] Purely from a defamational perspective, I completely support this approach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pierreganseman Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 (edited) Yes... I think some builders are deeply retarded when it comes to communicating anything. I have no problem naming some of them, when I had a quite unhappy story. I have ordered a custom Overwater, the 1st one was exactly as described with ETA. Second one , I think had 3 month delay, without a single explaination. When I actually went on a rant Martin Lee explained that Overwater had been having some staffing problem and that he was alone building basses. Not that its really my problem I feel.... but what about taking 3 minutes of your time to send an email to actually explain the situation? it seems like normal business ethic to me. I then asked 4 times what type of strap locks were on the bass , in case i needed to buy other "strap bits" I actually never had an answer from Martin Lee regarding on where to find others. So it could be Overwater strap lock designs... i don't know and would be totally screwed if i needed or lost them. The product though is outstanding ... i could not be happier... OW basses are built to resist a war... I just feel taking a bit of time to communicate with the customer when investing £3000 in a bass. Is something very important. Just my personal experience, I do understand that many people have bought from them and are VERY happy! Edited September 30, 2013 by pierreganseman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4 Strings Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 [quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1380550114' post='2226896'] Really? You wouldn't thinkg it was a "great story" if it happened to you, believe me. I was only in my late teens at the time; I'd ordered the bass with money from my first job & dealing with the whole thing was a f***ing nightmare. No pics - the whole incident got very nasty indeed. If I found & posted a picture people would be able to see the bass & therefore who it was made by & that's somewhere I really don't want to go. [/quote] Sorry, didn't mean to diminish your experience. Sounds like the builder you dealt with is better out of everyone's way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4 Strings Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 [quote name='pierreganseman' timestamp='1380551009' post='2226916'] ... but what about taking 3 minutes of your time to send an email to actually explain the situation? [/quote] I think this is the key, its disarming and gains sympathy and patience. Honesty and communication. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pierreganseman Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 [quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1380551300' post='2226927'] I think this is the key, its disarming and gains sympathy and patience. Honesty and communication. [/quote] I would have had not a single problem with them. If they had COMMUNICATE!! he was very honest after my rant though... then never answered regarding strap locks... lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RhysP Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 (edited) [quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1380551051' post='2226919'] Sorry, didn't mean to diminish your experience. Sounds like the builder you dealt with is better out of everyone's way. [/quote] No problem - I didn't mean my reply to sound like a telling off, I just still get really angry about it to this day ! Edited September 30, 2013 by RhysP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 [quote name='pierreganseman' timestamp='1380551548' post='2226930'] I would have had not a single problem with them. If they had COMMUNICATE!! [/quote] Luthiers have a particular skill when they do choose to communicate. When contacting a certain luthier about my specific problem... "If it's good enough for <famous bass player #1> and <famous bass player #2>, then it's good enough for you." Charming! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pierreganseman Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 [quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1380552235' post='2226951'] Luthiers have a particular skill when they do choose to communicate. When contacting a certain luthier about my specific problem... "If it's good enough for <famous bass player #1> and <famous bass player #2>, then it's good enough for you." Charming! [/quote] LOL no... i never had this kinda experience with any builder. Martin Lee was sweet and polite on the phone and by email. When he chooses to answer...... Martin Petersen from Sei bass, was always super nice to me too when buildind me two Sei's with a 3rd on the way. Bernie Goodfellow was always very polite to me too.... Otherwise I have countless experience, when I did not get an answer ... or had answer 6 month later... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 I've had the same reply from a very well known luthier when I suggested the pickups might be microphonic (after hearing myself speak through them at a gig). We all still have a choice about whether to proceed with the sale if someone doesn't deliver against their initial assurances. Be careful to distinguish between a quote and an estimate though. FWIW Jon Shuker gets my vote for incredible engineering. Just be aware that the more demanding and non standard an order is, the longer it will take for most luthiers to get parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Are many of the customers just as much of a pain in the arse as many of the builders though? People who think they know what they want but can't communicate it, or think they will get the perfect bass when in fact it will be pretty much like any other bass of similar spec, just looking different. Custom Bass Disease. Everyone loves a good build thread. They love the transformation of an old bit of diseased wood that looks like anything in yer dad's shed to when they start bevelling edges and sculpting laminated neck heels, then that magic rub with a bit of water to show how wickid the grain will look when the Ronseal goes on Sadly that's the only bit that 'does what it says on the tin', the rest of it is just a bass that you have no idea about, how it will feel, what it will sound like, or when you will get it. All you really want is to see your custom bass being made from bits of wood and metal and being transformed over an excruciating period of time into what you think you will have an everlasting loving relationship with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 (edited) [quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1380552687' post='2226959'] Are many of the customers just as much of a pain in the arse as many of the builders though? People who think they know what they want but can't communicate it, or think they will get the perfect bass when in fact it will be pretty much like any other bass of similar spec, just looking different. Custom Bass Disease. Everyone loves a good build thread. They love the transformation of an old bit of diseased wood that looks like anything in yer dad's shed to when they start bevelling edges and sculpting laminated neck heels, then that magic rub with a bit of water to show how wickid the grain will look when the Ronseal goes on Sadly that's the only bit that 'does what it says on the tin', the rest of it is just a bass that you have no idea about, how it will feel, what it will sound like, or when you will get it. All you really want is to see your custom bass being made from bits of wood and metal and being transformed over an excruciating period of time into what you think you will have an everlasting loving relationship with. [/quote] Ah so romantic! This is true - for a lot of people, it's that promise of nirvana, all their dreams answered.... when in reality, it's the build that is the bit that captures their imagination, rather than the finished product. Just because you can choose from an almost limited amount of options, doesn't mean you should. Choose all the woods you want, choose your pickups, circuits... spec this, spec that... the only way you know what it sounds like, how it plays like, is when it's in your hands... And when it is in your hands, you have to convince your friends it's the best thing ever... before you put if up for sale months later in BC classified. See it all too often... On the otherside, when you do get it right (and I like to think I got it right with my 3 - of which I can not think of any other basses I'd much rather have), it can be great. I've heard lots of horror stories from luthiers... why would you order a 5 string 35" scale fretless when you've never played a 5er and you're used to playing on a 34" 4 banger? Why would you change the spacing to something you've never experienced before? Why complain that bass sounds nothing like a P/J/MM when the bass you specced has no resemblance? Absolutely crazy... Go on, say it xilddx... say my new favourite quote...! Edited September 30, 2013 by EBS_freak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 [quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1380553014' post='2226969'] Ah so romantic! This is true - for a lot of people, it's that promise of nirvana, all their dreams answered.... when in reality, it's the build that is the bit that captures their imagination, rather than the finished product. Just because you can choose from an almost limited amount of options, doesn't mean you should. Choose all the woods you want, choose your pickups, circuits... spec this, spec that... the only way you know what it sounds like, how it plays like, is when it's in your hands... And when it is in your hands, you have to convince your friends it's the best thing ever... before you put if up for sale months later in BC classified. See it all too often... Go on, say it xilddx... say my new favourite quote...! [/quote] 'They don't know what the f*** they want, only when they f***ing want it'. I put some extra sauce on for you mate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 [quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1380553226' post='2226974'] 'They don't know what the f*** they want, only when they f***ing want it'. I put some extra sauce on for you mate [/quote] Ooh.... that's made me go all tingly inside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ped Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Reasons I've never gone custom: 1 - Communication 2 - Indecisiveness (too many options that I know little about) 3 - Got what I need 'off the shelf' 4 - I like to modify things myself, make it 'mine' and lastly, and most importantly 5 - I'm never sure if I'll 'get on' with the builder. Not that I'm an arsehole or anything but because of stories like this. I'd forever see the bass as a reminder of the process and I'd really struggle to identify with an instrument I had to spend so much time and effort having made, ala Shockwave. Even if the eventual instrument was perfect, it would put me off. As it stands, I've had several communications with the guy who owns Vigier, and it was nice - and that helps me enjoy the instrument and it's 'aura' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 [quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1380553405' post='2226976'] Ooh.... that's made me go all tingly inside. [/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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