An open letter to Custom builders. (Update on Page 11)

[EBS_freak]

[quote]
5 - I'm never sure if I'll 'get on' with the builder. Not that I'm an arsehole or anything but because of stories like this. I'd forever see the bass as a reminder of the process and I'd really struggle to identify with an instrument I had to spend so much time and effort having made, ala Shockwave. Even if it was perfect, it would put me off. As it stands, I've had several communications with the guy who owns Vigier, and it was nice - and that helps me enjoy the instrument and it's 'aura'
[/quote]

I can completely relate to this. Even when the problem was resolved (and when I say resolved, the product itself was still not right), I felt no affinity with the completed instrument.

Edited September 30, 2013 by EBS_freak

[Kiwi]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1380553596' post='2226982']
I can completely relate to this. Even when the problem was resolved (and when I say resolved, the product itself was still not right), I felt no affinity with the completed instrument.
[/quote]
This is the main drawback of custom instruments. If a builder already produces an instrument that someone likes the sound of, its a relatively small jump for them to alter physical aspects such as body shape, string spacing and neck dimensions. Its a completely different ball park to specify a certain wood combination and expect the luthier to produce a specific sound from it that is unfamiliar to them. Sometimes that doesn't happen with some woods for any number of reasons.

Finding a luthier who already makes basses that have 'The Sound' saves a whole load of hassle. Whether they are prepared to accommodate a specific set of ergonomic requirements at reasonable cost is another matter however.

The more specific someone is about what they want, the more responsibility they relieve the custom builder of. It also takes a certain learning curve 'for a player to find their sound. It;s taken me 25 years, thousands of pounds and I'm just about there...and its got nothing to do with alder bodies and maple necks funnily enough. "My" sound is very different from that.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1380555190' post='2227016']
This is the main drawback of custom instruments. If a builder already produces an instrument that someone likes the sound of, its a relatively small jump for them to alter physical aspects such as body shape, string spacing and neck dimensions. Its a completely different ball park to specify a certain wood combination and expect the luthier to produce a specific sound from it that is unfamiliar to them. Sometimes that doesn't happen with some woods for any number of reasons.
[/quote]

Changing wood is the easiest thing to change though! Having said that, due to the nature wood, two basses made from the same wood, even from the same tree can sound vastly different. Wood is not uniform. Instuments may sound identical, similar or vastly different. Nobody can tell for sure what an instrument will sound like until it's strung up. Any luthier will be able to tell you that. Any luthier that says otherwise is a liar. Woods have characteristics yes but they can vary so much, sometimes it's not even worth talking about! People like Status have probably the best approach to getting similar sounding instruments - their construction is from a much more consistent material. Of course, the more active you go, the less important the choice of woods as the sound is coming more from the circuit and the pickups...

Changing body shape, unless it's things like the radius of edges or similar, is a different kettle of fish completely. Changing scales, number of frets etc, can result in a lot of rework in the jigs... far more than just changing the wood of an instrument.

PS - my problem was with the build of the product itself, not the sound, profile etc.

Edited September 30, 2013 by EBS_freak

[Dingus]

I honestly believe that 99% of players ( myself included) could be perfectly well-served by a decent quality off the shelf, mass-produced bass. From my own experience, the difference between a good mass produced bass and a custom built job in terms of the usefullness of the final product is often minimal . I'm not saying this to be inflamatory or provocative , but a good Fender Jazz Bass, for example, will do just the same job for you as a custom -made Celinder or Alleeva Coppolo or whatever, and you can have just as much fun playing it . Of course lots of high end basses have their own strengths and are great instruments to own and use , but a whole industry has grown up around the questionable idea that ditching one perfectly good bass for a subjectively better one will make you a more satisfied player and therefore a happier person . Listen to some of the bass comparisons that crop up on Basschat every so often and there is no automatic direct correlation between top priced boutique basses and the best overall sound . There are players out there who have discovered that their own individual style does actually neccessitate a custom -made instrument , but they are few and far between .

[fleabag]

[quote name='ped' timestamp='1380553411' post='2226977']
Reasons I've never gone custom:

5 - I'm never sure if I'll 'get on' with the builder. Not that I'm an arsehole or anything but because of stories like this.
[/quote]

And thats peoples points here, that put up or shut up is dumb. How the hell does anyone know what a builder is like, if disgruntled customers didnt post their experiences? If you go to a custom luthier for the first time, you take him on face value, or you look for reports on his work ethic from others that have experienced that builder.

Its not acceptable - not in the least. I certainly wouldnt order any bass from those named and shamed here, and thats thanks to the people who expose their shoddy work ethic.

[RhysP]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1380552235' post='2226951']
Luthiers have a particular skill when they do choose to communicate.

When contacting a certain luthier about my specific problem...

"If it's good enough for <famous bass player #1> and <famous bass player #2>, then it's good enough for you."

Charming!
[/quote]

This MUST have been John Diggins!

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1380558439' post='2227066']
This MUST have been John Diggins!
[/quote]

No cigar! But I can see where you are coming from!

[White Cloud]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1380556787' post='2227037']
I honestly believe that 99% of players ( myself included) could be perfectly well-served by a decent quality off the shelf, mass-produced bass. From my own experience, the difference between a good mass produced bass and a custom built job in terms of the usefullness of the final product is often minimal . I'm not saying this to be inflamatory or provocative , but a good Fender Jazz Bass, for example, will do just the same job for you as a custom -made Celinder or Alleeva Coppolo or whatever, and you can have just as much fun playing it . Of course lots of high end basses have their own strengths and are great instruments to own and use , but a whole industry has grown up around the questionable idea that ditching one perfectly good bass for a subjectively better one will make you a more satisfied player and therefore a happier person . Listen to some of the bass comparisons that crop up on Basschat every so often and there is no automatic direct correlation between top priced boutique basses and the best overall sound . There are players out there who have discovered that their own individual style does actually neccessitate a custom -made instrument , but they are few and far between .
[/quote]
Couldn't have said it better than this.

[RhysP]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1380558521' post='2227071']
No cigar! But I can see where you are coming from!
[/quote]

I said that because when I worked in a music shop many years ago we used to stock & order quite a bit from John. Some of the things he used to say were outrageous but he was a very funny bloke.

The guy who ran the shop wanted to order a custom Supernatural bass with a small body - John said "If you want a small bodied bass f*** off & buy a Wal" & put the phone down.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='fleabag' timestamp='1380558329' post='2227063']
And thats peoples points here, that put up or shut up is dumb. How the hell does anyone know what a builder is like, if disgruntled customers didnt post their experiences? If you go to a custom luthier for the first time, you take him on face value, or you look for reports on his work ethic from others that have experienced that builder.

Its not acceptable - not in the least. I certainly wouldnt order any bass from those named and shamed here, and thats thanks to the people who expose their shoddy work ethic.
[/quote]

Are people not reading my comments properly? It's not about going elsewhere or chosing other vendors... I am guessing Shockwave's choices for going with those manufacturers are because they offer something that other vendors dont. Jon Lett's guitars are certainly unique looking and not something that is readily available off the shelf and are in a style that is not typical or other luthiers. SGD pickups certainly have a rep over on talkbass - and I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me if Shockwave had ordered one of those Wal inspired pickups. Now you tell me where you can readily get hold of a set of those. I know another certain luthier was working on getting some manufactured, but I know he wouldn't sell them outside of his basses, as they form part of the unique selling point of his basses.

I would certainly suggest that people do their homework. Find you perfect luthier. Find your perfect pickup maker. Great. But if you want a XYZ product that is only available from Mr ABC, then you are in a put up or shut up situation (there's that phrase again for me to be misquoted on again). There are many luthiers that have certain reputations... but the top and tale of it, you have to deal with them if you want their product that badly.

Jeez.

You want something like a Morgan car? You join the (long) queue... you don't know exactly when it will be made... you just sit and wait until your number comes up? Not good enough? Buy one second hand or put up and shut up? You aren't going to get a new Morgan any other way. Yes, you can buy something else and take your money elsewhere... but you won't have a new Morgan.

It doesn't matter what stories good or bad you are told... if you want something, in a way, you have to play their game despite you being the customer (and of course, the customer is always right). Totally wrong I know... but that's how it is when the seller has something that you want that you can't just pluck off the shelf. Yes, you shouldn't have to play the BS games... just depends how much you want that final product.

Do you get it now?

Edited September 30, 2013 by EBS_freak

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1380558883' post='2227076']
I said that because when I worked in a music shop many years ago we used to stock & order quite a bit from John. Some of the things he used to say were outrageous but he was a very funny bloke.

The guy who ran the shop wanted to order a custom Supernatural bass with a small body - John said "If you want a small bodied bass f*** off & buy a Wal" & put the phone down.
[/quote]

Ha ha. Certainly rings true! There's a couple of other notable luthiers that spring to mind who would have reacted in the same way!

I was meant to ask John how the f**k he solders the connections onto his pickups. Does he use a frickin' blowtorch or something? (Seems like a sensible approach to wiring basses - I hope he does cos I have got the most fantastic image in my mind at this point!)

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1380559426' post='2227087']
Are people not reading my comments properly? It's not about going elsewhere or chosing other vendors... I am guessing Shockwave's choices for going with those manufacturers are because they offer something that other vendors dont. Jon Lett's guitars are certainly unique looking and not something that is readily available off the shelf. SGD pickups certainly have a rep over on talkbass - and I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me if Shockwave had ordered one of those Wal inspired pickups. Now you tell me where you can readily get hold of a set of those. I know another certain luthier was working on getting some manufactured, but I know he wouldn't see them outside of his basses, as they form part of the unique selling point of his basses.

I would certainly suggest that people do their homework. Find you perfect luthier. Find your perfect pickup maker. Great. But if you want a XYZ product that is only available from Mr ABC, then you are in a put up or shut up situation (there's that phrase again for me to misquoted on again). There are many luthiers that have certain reputations... but the top and tale of it, you have to deal with them if you want their product that badly.

Jeez.

You want something like a Morgan car? You join the (long) queue... you don't know exactly when it will be made... you just sit and wait until your number comes up? Not good enough? Buy one second hand or put up and shut up? You aren't going to get a new Morgan any other way. Yes, you can buy something else and take your money elsewhere... but you won't have a new Morgan.

It doesn't matter what stories good or bad you are told... if you want something, in a way, you have to play their game despite you being the customer (and of course, the customer is always right). Totally wrong I know... but that's how it is when the seller has something that you want that you can't just pluck off the shelf. Yes, you shouldn't have to play the BS games... just depends how much you want that final product.

Do you get it now?
[/quote]
I'd just go somewhere else, probably cheaper too

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1380559645' post='2227092']
I'd just go somewhere else, probably cheaper too
[/quote]

Vera vs Morgan? There's only one winner!

[stingrayPete1977]

I was going to put a picture of a terrible Morgan style kit car on but I am on the works PC

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1380559847' post='2227094']
I was going to put a picture of a terrible Morgan style kit car on but I am on the works PC
[/quote]

Oh surely you'd buy an MR2 Ferrari?

[EBS_freak]

...in yellow.

[thisnameistaken]

I only ever custom order stuff if there's nothing that will do what I want on the market already, and it's always effects, and I accept that it will involve R&D and there are unknowns and so there might be delays and maybe the quote might go up. I've had some delays but nothing intolerable and so far nobody I've ordered from had let me down.

I would've thought though that guitars are basically guitars and there's not much innovation going on and so no real opportunity for massive delays, excepting personal problems that might crop up. But when 'personal problems' become the norm and everything is always late you're left thinking maybe this guy isn't suited to self employment...

[EBS_freak]

"ooh, imagine it in it's day..."

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1380559996' post='2227098']
I would've thought though that guitars are basically guitars and there's not much innovation going on and so no real opportunity for massive delays, excepting personal problems that might crop up. But when 'personal problems' become the norm and everything is always late you're left thinking maybe this guy isn't suited to self employment...
[/quote]

Yup, a bit of wood here, a bit of glue there, a few screws. Simples!

[JTUK]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1380530924' post='2226502']
To be fair, its not fair comparing the small independent luthier with the likes of cnc based sandberg...
[/quote]

yep..... a 2-3 team that have to do everything... understandable how times slip.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1380556787' post='2227037']
I honestly believe that 99% of players ( myself included) could be perfectly well-served by a decent quality off the shelf, mass-produced bass. From my own experience, the difference between a good mass produced bass and a custom built job in terms of the usefullness of the final product is often minimal . I'm not saying this to be inflamatory or provocative , but a good Fender Jazz Bass, for example, will do just the same job for you as a custom -made Celinder or Alleeva Coppolo or whatever, and you can have just as much fun playing it . Of course lots of high end basses have their own strengths and are great instruments to own and use , but a whole industry has grown up around the questionable idea that ditching one perfectly good bass for a subjectively better one will make you a more satisfied player and therefore a happier person . Listen to some of the bass comparisons that crop up on Basschat every so often and there is no automatic direct correlation between top priced boutique basses and the best overall sound . There are players out there who have discovered that their own individual style does actually neccessitate a custom -made instrument , but they are few and far between .
[/quote] What I don't understand is the business model most these UK based guys work on. With few exceptions I can't work out what their unique selling point is. I mean when I first started on basschat everyone was going mad about Shuker - and I'm sure they're good basses but I can't work out what makes them any different than a similar super jazz that someone else could make. ACG have their preamp and a bit more considered body shapes (I'm a designer/visual artist so that's where that opinion comes from) which sets them apart a bit, ... but apart from that I can't think of many who stand out of the "newer" builders - If you think of the slightly older UK builders if I said JD, Wal, Status or Overwater, then you can Imagine what the bass would look, and to a certain extent sound like. Some of the newer lot.... I don't get what it is that they are doing particularly. IMO it would make more sense to come up with something exceptional and sell that, rather than make whatever the (uneducated) punter wants.
I guess I also think that a hand built bass isn't nesserally better than a 3D CNDed bass fretted by a robot (a la Warwick) when it comes down to the finished product... I'm guessing the tolerances on a computer can be far far smaller....
[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1380559426' post='2227087']
Are people not reading my comments properly? It's not about going elsewhere or chosing other vendors... I am guessing Shockwave's choices for going with those manufacturers are because they offer something that other vendors dont. Jon Lett's guitars are certainly unique looking and not something that is readily available off the shelf and are in a style that is not typical or other luthiers. SGD pickups certainly have a rep over on talkbass - and I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me if Shockwave had ordered one of those Wal inspired pickups. Now you tell me where you can readily get hold of a set of those. I know another certain luthier was working on getting some manufactured, but I know he wouldn't sell them outside of his basses, as they form part of the unique selling point of his basses.

I would certainly suggest that people do their homework. Find you perfect luthier. Find your perfect pickup maker. Great. But if you want a XYZ product that is only available from Mr ABC, then you are in a put up or shut up situation (there's that phrase again for me to be misquoted on again). There are many luthiers that have certain reputations... but the top and tale of it, you have to deal with them if you want their product that badly.

Jeez.

You want something like a Morgan car? You join the (long) queue... you don't know exactly when it will be made... you just sit and wait until your number comes up? Not good enough? Buy one second hand or put up and shut up? You aren't going to get a new Morgan any other way. Yes, you can buy something else and take your money elsewhere... but you won't have a new Morgan.

It doesn't matter what stories good or bad you are told... if you want something, in a way, you have to play their game despite you being the customer (and of course, the customer is always right). Totally wrong I know... but that's how it is when the seller has something that you want that you can't just pluck off the shelf. Yes, you shouldn't have to play the BS games... just depends how much you want that final product.

Do you get it now?
[/quote] I get it. As an apendium, Most electric bass guitars are a bit more low tech than a new Morgan, and something like Wal inspired pickups could be built at home if you wanted too and put in the time/effort.

[yorks5stringer]

Will a Morgan play Metal....l?

[thebrig]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1380559426' post='2227087']
Are people not reading my comments properly? It's not about going elsewhere or chosing other vendors... I am guessing Shockwave's choices for going with those manufacturers are because they offer something that other vendors dont. Jon Lett's guitars are certainly unique looking and not something that is readily available off the shelf and are in a style that is not typical or other luthiers. SGD pickups certainly have a rep over on talkbass - and I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me if Shockwave had ordered one of those Wal inspired pickups. Now you tell me where you can readily get hold of a set of those. I know another certain luthier was working on getting some manufactured, but I know he wouldn't sell them outside of his basses, as they form part of the unique selling point of his basses.

I would certainly suggest that people do their homework. Find you perfect luthier. Find your perfect pickup maker. Great. But if you want a XYZ product that is only available from Mr ABC, then you are in a put up or shut up situation (there's that phrase again for me to be misquoted on again). There are many luthiers that have certain reputations... but the top and tale of it, you have to deal with them if you want their product that badly.

Jeez.

You want something like a Morgan car? You join the (long) queue... you don't know exactly when it will be made... you just sit and wait until your number comes up? Not good enough? Buy one second hand or put up and shut up? You aren't going to get a new Morgan any other way. Yes, you can buy something else and take your money elsewhere... but you won't have a new Morgan.

It doesn't matter what stories good or bad you are told... if you want something, in a way, you have to play their game despite you being the customer (and of course, the customer is always right). Totally wrong I know... but that's how it is when the seller has something that you want that you can't just pluck off the shelf. Yes, you shouldn't have to play the BS games... just depends how much you want that final product.

Do you get it now?
[/quote]
Nope, I still don't get it!

I have never ordered a custom build, and until reading this thread, I would never have known that the chances are, the luthier I chose to build my bass would tell me porkies about how long it will take.

If I am told it will be 6 months and it actually takes 9 or 12 months, I think I have every right to be disgruntled, so why should I accept it?

If I was told in the first place that it would take maybe 9 months, but more like 12 months, I would then be in a position to decide if I am willing to wait that long, which is why I have every sympathy with Shockwave, and the others who were told otherwise.

[u]My point?[/u]
If we knew before we ordered that we would have to wait longer than we are told, and then decided to go ahead regardless, then I agree, we would have to "put up and shut up", but if we didn't know in the first place, then that's a different matter, which is why a thread like this is very helpful, as it has clued me, and others up, as to what to expect if we were to have a custom build sometime in the future.

Edited September 30, 2013 by thebrig

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1380559997' post='2227099']


"ooh, imagine it in it's day..."
[/quote]
Gash

[Lord Sausage]

So potentially out of the named and shamed only Jon Letts will see this. So actually only he will feel shame if he comes back on here! I wouldn't! It's not really an open letter then. It's kinda a letter to Jon Letts.
Best pay for an ad in the Daily Mail. Have a go at the immigrants too!