An open letter to Custom builders. (Update on Page 11)

[skej21]

It has to be said, I've had dealings with a couple of the custom builders on here. After having a jazz bass body from one of them, the communication and customer service was poor to say the least and the builder has since gone on to needlessly rant on here (publically) in a very negative way about Fenders and the clientele who buy/own them (which would include me), so I would not use those services again.

If builders are hit-or-miss with service and as passive-aggressive as the Basschat rants would suggest, they have no-one to blame but themselves if it affects business. You can have all the luthier skill in the world but it's wasted if your attitude puts customers off your services.

Edited September 30, 2013 by skej21

[oggiesnr]

I don't make instruments but I have done custom work in my own field. I've also ordered custom instruments.

When I quote a price and a delivery date I do so on the basis that I will deliver in that week and to the spec as given me by the customer. Things can go wrong on my part and I would then tell my customer what had happened and agree a new delivery date. If it is absolutely time critical then it's my problem to beg or borrow what I need to get the job done (in one case I bought a new machine as the repair was going to take too long, it cost more than the job but that's my loss).

I don't hold with any custom builder quoting a time they know they cannot make, in the squeezebox world I know two builders who are currently not accepting orders because of the length of their order book and no amount of pleading will get you on that list. I know another has, in a businesslike manner, rationalised how he makes boxes (even all his custom ones) and quotes two years as standard and always delivers (and charges top dollar). It is possible for custom builders to be professional and there's no excuse for them not to be, if (and it's one excuse I've had) they are taking on too much repair work to subsidise their building then they they should either put up their prices or give up!

However customers can be equally bad, I've had changed specs a week before delivery, changed delivery dates, a total design change when I'd delivered and a refusal to pay the balance.

So, customers also need to keep their end of the deal, the fact that you've just heard a killer new pick up or seen a great wood is just tough. When the equivalent now happens to me I say fine "The cost of the work done so far that will be written off is x, after you pay me that we will start a new contract with a new completion date and price". Usually we just proceed as we were.

Steve

[rk7]

Some of you may have seen, and followed, my Overwater build thread on here.

Great communications, very helpful, and delivered on time.

Sorry to hear about commissions where this hasn't been the case.

RK

[thebrig]

[quote name='oggiesnr' timestamp='1380568322' post='2227267']
I don't make instruments but I have done custom work in my own field. I've also ordered custom instruments.

When I quote a price and a delivery date I do so on the basis that I will deliver in that week and to the spec as given me by the customer. Things can go wrong on my part and I would then tell my customer what had happened and agree a new delivery date. If it is absolutely time critical then it's my problem to beg or borrow what I need to get the job done (in one case I bought a new machine as the repair was going to take too long, it cost more than the job but that's my loss).

I don't hold with any custom builder quoting a time they know they cannot make, in the squeezebox world I know two builders who are currently not accepting orders because of the length of their order book and no amount of pleading will get you on that list. I know another has, in a businesslike manner, rationalised how he makes boxes (even all his custom ones) and quotes two years as standard and always delivers (and charges top dollar). It is possible for custom builders to be professional and there's no excuse for them not to be, if (and it's one excuse I've had) they are taking on too much repair work to subsidise their building then they they should either put up their prices or give up!

However customers can be equally bad, I've had changed specs a week before delivery, changed delivery dates, a total design change when I'd delivered and a refusal to pay the balance.

So, customers also need to keep their end of the deal, the fact that you've just heard a killer new pick up or seen a great wood is just tough. When the equivalent now happens to me I say fine "The cost of the work done so far that will be written off is x, after you pay me that we will start a new contract with a new completion date and price". Usually we just proceed as we were.

Steve
[/quote]
Totally agree with everything you say here, there is no excuse for not getting the job done on time, unless it really is unavoidable due to personal reasons, or a delay in parts etc.. in which case, there is no excuse for poor communication with the customer, they should inform them of what's going on, and telling them when they can expect the work to be completed, and if it's going to be something like an extra three or four months over the original quoted date, then a refund of any money paid in advance, should be offered to the customer if they can't wait that long.

I also agree that it does go both ways as well, because if I made changes to the original specs, then I would expect to pay extra for the inconveniece I have caused, and maybe pay for any parts that are no longer required for the build.

BTW, if you were a luthier, I would happily do business with you, as you understand how a good business should work, and show respect to your customers, and in return, you would be respected and recommended, making for a successful business.

Good business ethics is what we should expect from any business as a matter of course, not just luthiers, and we shouldn't have to "put up and shut up"

Edited September 30, 2013 by thebrig

[Shockwave]

Just to note I have never changed the specs on any of these builds and I never pressured for updates unless it was way past the deadlines or it had been a while since I heard any progress.The only thing I have changed is home address to be delivered to.

[Kiwi]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1380556131' post='2227027']
Changing wood is the easiest thing to change though! Having said that, due to the nature wood, two basses made from the same wood, even from the same tree can sound vastly different. Wood is not uniform. Instuments may sound identical, similar or vastly different. Nobody can tell for sure what an instrument will sound like until it's strung up. Any luthier will be able to tell you that. Any luthier that says otherwise is a liar. Woods have characteristics yes but they can vary so much, sometimes it's not even worth talking about! People like Status have probably the best approach to getting similar sounding instruments - their construction is from a much more consistent material. Of course, the more active you go, the less important the choice of woods as the sound is coming more from the circuit and the pickups...

Changing body shape, unless it's things like the radius of edges or similar, is a different kettle of fish completely. Changing scales, number of frets etc, can result in a lot of rework in the jigs... far more than just changing the wood of an instrument.

[/quote]

I agree in principle about the wood but there are some manufacturers out there like Chris Celinder, who get remarkably consistent results from passive wooden instruments. I don't think the pickups or preamp have much effect on the sound of a bass at all outside of very coarse adjustments. I've tested the outer limits with at least two pickup suppliers and preamp manufacturers and am pretty confident I know what can be achieved.

Re: jigs, I'm talking about expectation management not build process.

[Lowender]

I learned that lesson long ago. Why anyone would pay top dollar and wait endlessly for what is essentially a gamble is beyond me.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1380577021' post='2227487']
I agree in principle about the wood but there are [b]some manufacturers out there like Chris Celinder, who get remarkably consistent results from passive wooden instruments. [/b]I don't think the pickups or preamp have much effect on the sound of a bass at all outside of very coarse adjustments. I've tested the outer limits with at least two pickup suppliers and preamp manufacturers and am pretty confident I know what can be achieved.

Re: jigs, I'm talking about expectation management not build process.
[/quote] which explains why people pay the money they do for Celinders.... I would argue that there are a fair few builders around who don't have that level of luthiery to build towards a tone/or sound pallet. It's how I understand custom instruments to end up with a sound that you really don't understand how on earth they would work in a mix!

[Noisyjon]

I've done the custom order thing a couple of times with different builders and wouldn't recommend it on the whole either.
One was a massive tool with post purchase problems and the other didn't quite get it right with comm's, build or delivery times.

I'm of Ped's thinking - Get a bass that's nearly what you want and mod it yourself to where you want it to be, even better order parts from Warmoth (other instrument parts companies are available!) and assemble it yourself. The satisfaction when it's all done is almost overwhelming.

[alyctes]

[quote name='Shockwave' timestamp='1380542998' post='2226719']
And that attitude is the problem. How are current or future luthiers who do do this sort of thing supposed to learn if no one does anything?

[/quote]

This.

[Disclaimer: Never bought a custom anything...]

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1380577953' post='2227508']
I learned that lesson long ago. Why anyone would pay top dollar and wait endlessly for what is essentially a gamble is beyond me.
[/quote]

Because nothing "off-the-peg" is what you want.

Unless what you want is in the shops and available to try pretty much any musical instrument you have to buy on spec is a gamble. At least if you know what you want and pick the right luthier to make it for you it might be less of one.

[charic]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1380612823' post='2227699']
Because nothing "off-the-peg" is what you want.
[/quote]

Close, in my case it was because the "off the peg" option of a similar specification would've cost me more than going custom

[steve-bbb]

[quote name='Toasted' timestamp='1380539152' post='2226657']
Hempathy
[/quote]

did the name not give away a subtle clue perhaps that he might have blown all your dosh on gear and then just mellowed and completely forgot your pedal

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1380564041' post='2227165']
What I don't understand is the business model most these UK based guys work on. With few exceptions I can't work out what their unique selling point is. I mean when I first started on basschat everyone was going mad about Shuker - and I'm sure they're good basses but I can't work out what makes them any different than a similar super jazz that someone else could make. ACG have their preamp and a bit more considered body shapes (I'm a designer/visual artist so that's where that opinion comes from) which sets them apart a bit, ... but apart from that I can't think of many who stand out of the "newer" builders - If you think of the slightly older UK builders if I said JD, Wal, Status or Overwater, then you can Imagine what the bass would look, and to a certain extent sound like. Some of the newer lot.... I don't get what it is that they are doing particularly. IMO it would make more sense to come up with something exceptional and sell that, rather than make whatever the (uneducated) punter wants.
I guess I also think that a hand built bass isn't nesserally better than a 3D CNDed bass fretted by a robot (a la Warwick) when it comes down to the finished product... I'm guessing the tolerances on a computer can be far far smaller....
I get it. As an apendium, Most electric bass guitars are a bit more low tech than a new Morgan, and something like Wal inspired pickups could be built at home if you wanted too and put in the time/effort.
[/quote]

I don't get the J bass thing either. By their very nature they are a production line instrument. May as well get a Warmoth body and neck and customise to your hearts content. Of course this doesn't give the same birthing process that I think many crave. Warmoth will cater for your choice of wood and make pretty much anything you want within a standard j bass spec. Only if there is something truly whacky about your desired spec I could see why you must go custom. The thing is, luthiers can come up with something whacky... And it won't sell. People want the normality of a j bass but not the normality of a Fender. Time and time again you see luthiers start off with something out of the norm... Then plump for a j bass. Why? Cos it sells and is a timeless shape.

I can see why guys like ACG, Wal, GB, Alembic and Schack to name a few, do well. Their usp is all in their electronics. Nothing else sounds like them and the full electronics package and pickups are generally not available for purchase to put in other basses. And quite right too.

As for Morgan, it's not a literal comparison... But there are elements of a bass that are not as straightforward either. Take this for example...

http://www.gbguitars.co.uk/images/innovation/detail/bass_preamp_lg.jpg

That's years of r and d and each one of those circuits are hand soldered and matched to the pickups it will work with. That's not your normal plug and play circuit. I'd say elements of this are on par with a Morgan personally... Remember, Morgan don't build their own engines for starters. The actual production is vastly different but my stance on only a Morgan will do if the buyer wants a Morgan still stands.

As for the Wal pickups, it's not as simple as that either. Where are you going to find a Wal pickup to reverse engineer? If you find one, are you going to destroy it in your quest to replicate it? Have you got the winders to make it a viable process? Are you going to invest the time and money to buy all the components (in small but expensive quantities) to test it all? And remember, the pickups are only half of the Wal sound. Yes, they could be built at home... But in reality they are not are they? Especially as a one off. That's why our New Jersey friend tried to make a business venture out of it. You make it sound like its easy... But it's far from that. If it was that easy, everybody would be doing it and cashing in.

Edited October 1, 2013 by EBS_freak

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='alyctes' timestamp='1380582622' post='2227572']


This.

[Disclaimer: Never bought a custom anything...]
[/quote]

Try reading the thread again.

[EBS_freak]

PS just to clarify, not saying that custom guys behaviour is right, just saying why it is like it is.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='thebrig' timestamp='1380571365' post='2227362']
Good business ethics is what we should expect from any business as a matter of course, not just luthiers, and we shouldn't have to "put up and shut up"
[/quote]

Agreed. Unless they are selling a unique product that you can't get elsewhere then you are kinda screwed. There seems to be an echo.

Edited October 1, 2013 by EBS_freak

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='Lord Sausage' timestamp='1380566576' post='2227226']
So potentially out of the named and shamed only Jon Letts will see this. So actually only he will feel shame if he comes back on here! I wouldn't! It's not really an open letter then. It's kinda a letter to Jon Letts.
Best pay for an ad in the Daily Mail. Have a go at the immigrants too!
[/quote]

True. This thread only seems to have had a purpose if a bass suddenly materialises because the majority of the content in here is widely being ignored.

[CamdenRob]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1380615666' post='2227750']
True. This thread only seems to have had a purpose if a bass suddenly materialises because the majority of the content in here is widely being ignored.
[/quote]

I think it's a useful thread. If I'd have read this before ordering my custom build five months ago I would have thought twice about ordering it... ... then probably ordered it anyway thinking it wouldn't happen to me

When I ordered the bass the plan was, if it turned out as I wanted, I'd order a similar fretless version on the back of it.

I can say now that I definitely will not be ordering another custom build.

Rob

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1380616852' post='2227772']


I think it's a useful thread. If I'd have read this before ordering my custom build five months ago I would have thought twice about ordering it... ... then probably ordered it anyway thinking it wouldn't happen to me

[/quote]

:-p

[xilddx]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1380615279' post='2227735'] I don't get the J bass thing either. By their very nature they are a production line instrument. May as well get a Warmoth body and neck and customise to your hearts content. Of course this doesn't give the same birthing process that I think many crave. Warmoth will cater for your choice of wood and make pretty much anything you want within a standard j bass spec. Only if there is something truly whacky about your desired spec I could see why you must go custom. The thing is, luthiers can come up with something whacky... And it won't sell. People want the normality of a j bass but not the normality of a Fender. Time and time again you see luthiers start off with something out of the norm... Then plump for a j bass. Why? Cos it sells and is a timeless shape. I can see why guys like ACG, Wal, GB, Alembic and Schack to name a few, do well. Their usp is all in their electronics. Nothing else sounds like them and the full electronics package and pickups are generally not available for purchase to put in other basses. And quite right too. As for Morgan, it's not a literal comparison... But there are elements of a bass that are not as straightforward either. Take this for example... http://www.gbguitars.co.uk/images/innovation/detail/bass_preamp_lg.jpg That's years of r and d and each one of those circuits are hand soldered and matched to the pickups it will work with. That's not your normal plug and play circuit. I'd say elements of this are on par with a Morgan personally... Remember, Morgan don't build their own engines for starters. The actual production is vastly different but my stance on only a Morgan will do if the buyer wants a Morgan still stands. As for the Wal pickups, it's not as simple as that either. Where are you going to find a Wal pickup to reverse engineer? If you find one, are you going to destroy it in your quest to replicate it? Have you got the winders to make it a viable process? Are you going to invest the time and money to buy all the components (in small but expensive quantities) to test it all? And remember, the pickups are only half of the Wal sound. Yes, they could be built at home... But in reality they are not are they? Especially as a one off. That's why our New Jersey friend tried to make a business venture out of it. You make it sound like its easy... But it's far from that. If it was that easy, everybody would be doing it and cashing in. [/quote]

A J also balances perfectly and has the golden proportions, a good Fender Jazz is a beautiful thing, a lovely design. Fenders are so customisable anyway, that's part of the joy of owning one. New PG, new pups, new body, hardware, a John East pre-amp, even a new neck if you bought blind, or foolishly.

I think trying to reverse engineer a pickup is daft, how the hell are you supposed to guess what it will sound like in the bass? People THINK they know, but they don't really, it's all hit and miss. And very expensive.

Seems to me a custom bass is simply a vanity indulgence for most people, their time and money would be better spent on learning how to set up their instruments, learn about sound and eq. I think half the problems they think they are addressing with a custom bass could be solved more simply if it's not just a vanity project. Probably should get some lessons on how to play the thing too

Edited October 1, 2013 by xilddx

[andydye]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1380617433' post='2227776']
A J also balances perfectly and has the golden proportions, a good Fender Jazz is a beautiful thing, a lovely design. Fenders are so customisable anyway, that's part of the joy of owning one. New PG, new pups, new body, hardware, a John East pre-amp, even a new neck if you bought blind, or foolishly.

I think trying to reverse engineer a pickup is daft, how the hell are you supposed to guess what it will sound like in the bass? People THINK they know, but they don't really, it's all hit and miss. And very expensive.

Seems to me a custom bass is simply a vanity indulgence for most people, their time and money would be better spent on learning how to set up their instruments, learn about sound and eq. I think half the problems they think they are addressing with a custom bass could be solved more simply if it's not just a vanity project. Probably should get some lessons on how to play the thing too
[/quote]

Mostly agree here matey!

I bought my ACG (custom) because I
1) wanted to buy british and there aren't any 'line produced british basses' (that I know of),
2) had tried most of the line produced basses in that price bracket and while they were nice, it was a significant chunk of money and I suspected that an ACG would be better (it is!),
3) really liked the look, feel and sound of it!

I also didn't have the custom 'built' for me, I bought one of Alan's 'available now' stock basses so I got th ebest of both worlds,
1) I had it within a week of paying for it,
2) someone who knows wood better than I do, selected an dspecified the bits and constructed it for me.

I'm happy because I have a bass that I love to play, that I can setup to feel just right (because everything works properly and the neck-body angle is spot on), that sounds really good (to me) and that was handbuilt by a British (well, Scottish but close enough) craftsman and all at a price that would compare favourably with a new stingray5!

Edited October 1, 2013 by andydye

[ShergoldSnickers]

There is no doubt that custom builds are a risk. You trade certainty for something tailored and exclusive, and if you do your homework and are lucky, a brilliant instrument. If you aren't lucky then it can be a nightmare. I was lucky. Robbie at RIM basses is down to earth, communicative, open to suggestions, willing to guide and is gifted.

My build took around twice the quoted time, the only drawback in the whole process, but Robbie never shied from keeping me updated. I think fatherhood ended up taking up more time than he expected. . I'd do it again without hesitation.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1380617433' post='2227776']
Seems to me a custom bass is simply a vanity indulgence for most people, their time and money would be better spent on learning how to set up their instruments, learn about sound and eq. I think half the problems they think they are addressing with a custom bass could be solved more simply if it's not just a vanity project. Probably should get some lessons on how to play the thing too
[/quote]

+1

Seems a bit like flash cars vs a working tool for doing the job. Sure, some tools are better quality than others but they quickly plateau after a certain price point. Anyway, what happened to the 'it's all in the fingers' sentiment?

[xilddx]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1380620266' post='2227835']
+1

Seems a bit like flash cars vs a working tool for doing the job. Sure, some tools are better quality than others but they quickly plateau after a certain price point. Anyway, what happened to the 'it's all in the fingers' sentiment?
[/quote]

Tone is all in the fingers as long as those fingers are stroking some bookmatched diseased wood in the shape of a sperm whale with elephantitis.