Warning.... Kappalite 3015 NOT designed for Bass!

[Toasted]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1380838496' post='2231478']
So that's two counts of Blue Aran staff not having the first clue about bass cabinets then.
[/quote]

You do love whiteknighting alex claber, don't you?

[skidder652003]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1380852549' post='2231589']
I agree to some extent, though it falls upon the customer to do the proper research to be sure that they are purchasing the correct driver for a particular application, not the retailer. I don't expect a retailer to have a high degree of engineering expertise. Of course, if the retailer does assume the position of giving applications advice, other than merely reposting manufacturer specs and data, then they have the obligation to be sure that they get it right. In short, don't offer expert advise if you're not an expert.
Still, I put the onus on the OP in this case. I'd be curious to see exactly what research he did. For instance, did he ask here before making his purchase?
[/quote]

I had a good discussion with you all here!!!!

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/186836-eminence-kappa-pro-15-vs-eminence-kappalite-3015lf/page__st__80__p__1915135__hl__kappalite__fromsearch__1#entry1915135"]http://basschat.co.uk/topic/186836-eminence-kappa-pro-15-vs-eminence-kappalite-3015lf/page__st__80__p__1915135__hl__kappalite__fromsearch__1#entry1915135[/url]

[discreet]

[quote name='AndyKos' timestamp='1380853245' post='2231590']
...are you the same Bill Fitzmaurice that's linked to numerous speaker designs..?
[/quote]

It is he.

Edited October 4, 2013 by discreet

[alexclaber]

I'm not particularly appreciating being (mis)quoted to attack Blue Aran. As I said at the start of the thread the Kappalite 3015 is a great driver for bass guitar but as with all drivers it needs to be use appropriately. Put it in too high-tuned a box or too low-tuned and/or large a box and it will not perform as well nor be as robust because its excursion-limited power handling will drop well below its thermal power handling. Use it in the right context and it will not only outperform the vast majority of commercial cabs but will outlast them.

To continue the Aston Martin analogy, this is a case of putting a Aston engine into something with completely the wrong gearbox/final drive, so to use it at motorway speeds you're running well into the red on the tacho, and there's no rev limiter (compressor/filtering) to protect the engine. The photos show horrible over-excursion damage. Either this was used in a very loud band where the bassist could barely hear his cab, or the bassist didn't know or care that those nasty over-excursion sounds were bad, or it was being used as the bottom half of a stack so the sound from the cab on top was obscuring the distortion. The 3015 starts exceeding 10% THD at 5.9mm excursion and that distortion rapidly increases as you push harder. Because the voice coil is leaving the gap it takes an ever increasing amount of power to push it all the way past the 5.9mm Xmax to the 11mm Xlim where the coil hits the backplate. Knowing how robust kapton voice coil formers are, the damage pictured doesn't look like it was one freak incident but repeated impacts - maybe only one loud bit of one song but those impacts were both hard and repetitive.

It's user error, caused by putting a driver into the wrong cab and then being unable to hear the audible warning signs or ignoring them. Make the cab large enough and/or tune it low enough and it's surprisingly easy to ask too much of a woofer in the critical 60Hz range - that's how I wore out my Acme 10"s (though it took 900W per 2x10" cab to do it!)

If Blue Aran were advertising "buy this driver to upgrade your bass guitar 1x15" " then they would definitely share the blame, or if they advised the customer that this was a good use for it. I don't believe that's the case, though please correct me if I'm wrong. It's horrible to see such a nice driver wrecked like this. If Eminence sell a recone kit (they do for some Kappalites) then it would be repairable for less than the cost of a whole new driver.

[barkin]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1380881394' post='2231813']
I'm not particularly appreciating being (mis)quoted to attack Blue Aran. As I said at the start of the thread the Kappalite 3015 is a great driver for bass guitar but as with all drivers it needs to be use appropriately. Put it in too high-tuned a box or too low-tuned and/or large a box and it will not perform as well nor be as robust because its excursion-limited power handling will drop well below its thermal power handling. [/quote]

Apologies if I've misunderstood, but wasn't this mentioned in the original discussion (a year or so ago, in the thread mention above by the OP) as a possible consequence if the driver was fitted in the Warwick cab ?

[davehux]

I'm putting my Forum Mod boots on here

There is a dispute here between skidder652003 and Blue Aran, which I think should be left to them to sort out privately and off line. I'm not sure it's helpful to either party for all and sundry to wade in with their 2p's on who is right/wrong in this matter, particularly if it appears to draw in other suppliers.

Please feel free to continue to discuss your thoughts on whether the Kappalite 3015 is or is not suitable for bass, but leave the two parties to deal with their issues themselves

Thank you

[discreet]

[quote name='davehux' timestamp='1380885920' post='2231886']
...leave the two parties to deal with their issues themselves.
[/quote]

Fair enough, Dave. I have edited my post accordingly.

[AndyKos]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1380881394' post='2231813']
I'm not particularly appreciating being (mis)quoted to attack Blue Aran. As I said at the start of the thread the Kappalite 3015 is a great driver for bass guitar but as with all drivers it needs to be use appropriately. Put it in too high-tuned a box or too low-tuned and/or large a box and it will not perform as well nor be as robust because its excursion-limited power handling will drop well below its thermal power handling. Use it in the right context and it will not only outperform the vast majority of commercial cabs but will outlast them.

To continue the Aston Martin analogy, this is a case of putting a Aston engine into something with completely the wrong gearbox/final drive, so to use it at motorway speeds you're running well into the red on the tacho, and there's no rev limiter (compressor/filtering) to protect the engine. The photos show horrible over-excursion damage. Either this was used in a very loud band where the bassist could barely hear his cab, or the bassist didn't know or care that those nasty over-excursion sounds were bad, or it was being used as the bottom half of a stack so the sound from the cab on top was obscuring the distortion. The 3015 starts exceeding 10% THD at 5.9mm excursion and that distortion rapidly increases as you push harder. Because the voice coil is leaving the gap it takes an ever increasing amount of power to push it all the way past the 5.9mm Xmax to the 11mm Xlim where the coil hits the backplate. Knowing how robust kapton voice coil formers are, the damage pictured doesn't look like it was one freak incident but repeated impacts - maybe only one loud bit of one song but those impacts were both hard and repetitive.

It's user error, caused by putting a driver into the wrong cab and then being unable to hear the audible warning signs or ignoring them. Make the cab large enough and/or tune it low enough and it's surprisingly easy to ask too much of a woofer in the critical 60Hz range - that's how I wore out my Acme 10"s (though it took 900W per 2x10" cab to do it!)

If Blue Aran were advertising "buy this driver to upgrade your bass guitar 1x15" " then they would definitely share the blame, or if they advised the customer that this was a good use for it. I don't believe that's the case, though please correct me if I'm wrong. It's horrible to see such a nice driver wrecked like this. If Eminence sell a recone kit (they do for some Kappalites) then it would be repairable for less than the cost of a whole new driver.
[/quote]

I havent taken any of your comments as an attack against us, in fact, everything youve posted that Ive read seems a very balanced assessment of the facts.

The kappalite is repairable by use of a recone kit, last time I checked there was no stock of these in Europe, and they had to be ordered in from the US. If I were to hazard a guess the cost of a recone kit would be just under half the cost of a new driver, even with a charge for fitting this would be significantly less than a new driver.

However that wont necessarily solve the problem here permanently, as unless the box is retuned, and other measures put into place to limit excursion and power, the same problem could happen again.

[stevie]

The speaker was definitely overdriven but there is no reason to assume that this driver was mis-tuned in the Warwick cab.

Edited October 4, 2013 by stevie

[stevie]

[quote name='barkin' timestamp='1380884218' post='2231863']
Apologies if I've misunderstood, but wasn't this mentioned in the original discussion (a year or so ago, in the thread mention above by the OP) as a possible consequence if the driver was fitted in the Warwick cab ?
[/quote]

It was mentioned in that thread that the Warwick cab was probably a bit on the large side for the driver (which would reduce power handling), although we didn't have the exact dimensions to go on.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='AndyKos' timestamp='1380853245' post='2231590']
recognising the name Bill Fitzmaurice,Im curious are you the same Bill Fitzmaurice thats linked to numerous speaker designs,
[/quote]Guilty as charged.

[charic]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1380891384' post='2231993']
Guilty as charged.
[/quote]

There we go, Bill admitted it! It's his fault! He broke the speaker!!

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1380868599' post='2231622']
this thread reminds me a bit of putting a 12 litre turbo engine in a battered mini and then being surprised when the mini tears itself to bits under the torque
[/quote]

The problem is, in this case, the place where the 12 litre engine was purchased from has said that the engine isn't suitable for vehicles as the reason for it failing, rather than the mini being not suitable for such a large and powerful engine. Then they have come and said you should modify the mini with the 12 litre engine to only drive at certain speeds, and really, driving a car doesn't matter at all when the bus does all the travelling.

[davehux]

Last warning guys. Leave the dispute alone, or the padlocks come out

[Mr. Foxen]

Throw up some ideas on what generally available speaker would be better for bass, assuming a desire for some upper mid content for actual definition. The Aguilar GS cabs are good and use a modified/OEM Delta12LFA, I find them a bit dark though.

[skidder652003]

Hey Guys, i didnt want to start a war!
Im happy to admit I wrecked the driver, as alex guessed, I play in a stupid loud band but i did think that 2 x 400W drivers into a 700W cab would be fine, obviously I wasnt aware of quite how important it was to get the cab measurements correct, I just thought the worst that could happen was that it might sound Sh*t rather than destroy (the good) one. Hopefully the guys at Blue Aran might take some of this discussion on board and put up a advisory.

No falling out here! Don't want to get booted out by the mods!

[davehux]

Following Steve (skidder652003)'s 'confession' I locked the thread last night. The mods and I have been chatting this morning and it was decided that locking was an over reaction, and the thread should now be re-opened.

I have apologised to Steve, and hope you all put it down to New Mod power crazed enthusiasm

Cheers

Dave

Edited October 5, 2013 by davehux

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='skidder652003' timestamp='1380907394' post='2232342']
Hey Guys, i didnt want to start a war!
Im happy to admit I wrecked the driver, as alex guessed, I play in a stupid loud band but i did think that 2 x 400W drivers into a 700W cab would be fine, obviously I wasnt aware of quite how important it was to get the cab measurements correct, I just thought the worst that could happen was that it might sound Sh*t rather than destroy (the good) one. Hopefully the guys at Blue Aran might take some of this discussion on board and put up a advisory.
[/quote]

Watts are pretty meaningless, near totally, other factors dominate. Think the specs that comes into play here is xmax vs xlim, the closer they are together, the less warning area there is, as the gap between them is the 'fart sound' part (xmax being clean excursion, xlim being destruction excursion). Xmax has increased in new generation drivers faster than xlim, so the warning area has shrunk. If you use a bit of distortion from elsewhere, cuts it down even more because the first part of the fart zone gets covered by it.

[Billy Apple]

I think the OP should get in touch with Eminence themselves and see what they have to say. I had a question about removing the sealing gasket from the front of an Eminence Basslite driver. The supplier said it should not be done, could cause the cone to come unstuck and void the warranty. Eminence said it could be cut down, or indeed removed completely. They said the adhesive that sticks the gasket on is different to the one that glues the cone to the chassis, and the presence (or not) of the gasket does not interfere with this.

I'd seek the advise of the people who built it. BTW took Eminence less than a day to respond, the supplier took a week!

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Billy Apple' timestamp='1380976176' post='2233015']
I think the OP should get in touch with Eminence themselves and see what they have to say. I had a question about removing the sealing gasket from the front of an Eminence Basslite driver. The supplier said it should not be done, could cause the cone to come unstuck and void the warranty. Eminence said it could be cut down, or indeed removed completely. They said the adhesive that sticks the gasket on is different to the one that glues the cone to the chassis, and the presence (or not) of the gasket does not interfere with this.
[/quote]It should not be done, for two reasons. One is that there's nothing to be gained in so doing, so if it ain't broke don't fix it. Why one would decide to remove it is beyond me. The other is that in the process of removing it one might pull the suspension from the frame, and even the smallest air leak there could lead to driver failure.
[quote]I'd seek the advise of the people who built it. BTW took Eminence less than a day to respond, the supplier took a week! [/quote]Suppliers/distibutors employ sales, advertising, customer service and shipping personnel, not transducer engineers.

[Billy Apple]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1380978484' post='2233046']
It should not be done, for two reasons. One is that there's nothing to be gained in so doing, so if it ain't broke don't fix it. Why one would decide to remove it is beyond me. The other is that in the process of removing it one might pull the suspension from the frame, and even the smallest air leak there could lead to driver failure.
[/quote]

Fair enough Bill, but below is a copy of the email Eminence sent me, and after all, they manufacture them. Anyway, my point is, everyone has an opinion, but for my money I'd listen to the maker.

Hi Sean,

Yes, you can remove the front gasket pretty easily without harming the speaker. Take a utility knife and cut it off, being careful not to cut any portion of the cone’s surround. Once you get the gasket started, you may be able to pull it off.


Best Regards,

A****** L****
Technical Support
Eminence Speaker, LLC

[Salt on your Bass?]

I think if this thread highlights anything it's that you can't just Chuck any old speaker in any box and expect it to be ok. Needs a bit more than a wing and a prayer which is why good speaker cabs are worth the money in my humble opinion.

[ShergoldSnickers]

I don't think any of us realise what a complex subject speaker/cabinet acoustics is until you start to delve. It could be argued that some manufacturers still don't but that's another story. It's one of those areas that looks so simple — what could be hard about stuffing a driver into a box? What's hard are the dozens of variables that contribute to the final result. Understanding and then manipulating those variables to the required compromise, and a compromise it will inevitably be, takes a lot of skill and perhaps a little bravery. I'd be fine with the bravery bit.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Billy Apple' timestamp='1380979328' post='2233053']
Fair enough Bill, but below is a copy of the email Eminence sent me, and after all, they manufacture them. Anyway, my point is, everyone has an opinion, but for my money I'd listen to the maker.

Hi Sean,

Yes, you can remove the front gasket pretty easily without harming the speaker. Take a utility knife and cut it off, being careful not to cut any portion of the cone’s surround. Once you get the gasket started, you may be able to pull it off.


Best Regards,

A****** L****
Technical Support
Eminence Speaker, LLC
[/quote]I'm well aware that it can be done. My point is that it shouldn't be, there's nothing to be gained, and potentially a driver to be lost.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Salt on your Bass?' timestamp='1380979571' post='2233057']
I think if this thread highlights anything it's that you can't just Chuck any old speaker in any box and expect it to be ok. Needs a bit more than a wing and a prayer which is why good speaker cabs are worth the money in my humble opinion.
[/quote] +1