Double bass sound and how it changes?

[SevenSeas]

Hey,

I hear people mention numerous times that the sound of a double bass will change with age or simply when buying a new double bass it takes time for the bass to acquire its full sound.

I have tried to research this and found no references anywhere? I think people describe the bass as 'opening up'.

Can anyone explain this in more detail or does anyone have any references to good material to read up on?

Cheers,

[henry norton]

Well, when a DB is new or if it's had some major work carried out (like a new bass bar or braces), it can sound tight, quiet and compressed to begin with. It usually feels like you have to play very hard and fight to get the sound to come on out. As time goes on and it's played more (bowing is particularly good for this), the bass 'loosens up', the sound gets more dynamic and richer and it feels less of a struggle to play. The same thing happens if the bass hasn't been played for a long while. I don't know of any books describing this phenomena - maybe it's because the DB is one of the most dynamic and most physical instruments out there, there's allot of interaction between the instrument and the player which is why one player just can't get on with a particular instrument that another finds perfect. A player also needs to learn how to get the best out of a particular instrument - where to bow, how it balances, soundpost position etc.

It's worth noting this only really happens with solid wood DB's - laminates (plywood DB's) tend to stay sounding the same throughout their life.

Hope this helps.

[SevenSeas]

Hi Henry,

Okay thats awesome, you couldn't of put it any better.

[jakenewmanbass]

I might be imagining this but I reckon my bass goes a bit quiet when it's been in the case...! and after a little while playing, it opens up.
So arriving in a studio, it's the first thing i do, get the bass out and play a few notes in the live room, and leave it to settle (usually while the engineer takes an age to get a drum sound )

Edited October 9, 2013 by jakenewmanbass

[PaulKing]

Peter Tyler swears by his vibrator.

Perhaps some explanation to clear his name .... I saw one of his basses sitting in the corner with a gadget attached to its bridge, buzzing away day and night to speed up the opening up process. He said it made a huge difference.
Not a rabbit in sight.

A brand new laminate bass will mellow and bloom to some extent, but yeah it rarely develops in the rich complex way a decent
solid or carved bass does.

[Basstroker]

Yes, some bass players use devices like this to "age" the sound of their basses: [url="http://tonerite.com/bass/vmchk"]http://tonerite.com/bass/vmchk[/url] . The inventor was Prof. Gerhard A. von Reumont and the procedure in German is called "Vibrationsentdämpfung", VED. The devices Mr. Reumont used were much bigger and louder, maybe more effectiv than the Tonerite. In my opinion it is better to play a new instrument and to hear how it develops. - Best, Thomas

Edited October 9, 2013 by Basstroker

[geoffbassist]

When I've had work done on mine it sometimes feels a bit tight and seems to vibrate less, but very quickly it opens up. I think a lot of the time people may be reporting the sound of new strings settling down, but I do think there are subtle changes that happen after work. Even moving the sound post can have an impact. I expect new basses are much the same and after a few weeks of serious playing do tend to sound a bit more open, but I wouldn't expect a bass to improve in sound when you buy it, but be happy if it does :-)

[geoffbassist]

[quote name='Basstroker' timestamp='1381307237' post='2237140']
Yes, some bass players use devices like this to "age" the sound of their basses: [url="http://tonerite.com/bass/vmchk"]http://tonerite.com/bass/vmchk[/url] . The inventor was Prof. Gerhard A. von Reumont and the procedure in German is called "Vibrationsentdämfung", VED. The devices Mr. Reumont used were much bigger and louder, maybe more effectiv than the Tonerite. In my opinion it is better to play a new instrument and to hear how it develops. - Best, Thomas
[/quote]

a massive +1 why anyone would bother with I dont know. Just spend 20 mins practicing scales with a bow instead.

[blinddrew]

Same thing happens with solid wood guitars as well, they "play in" over time. I've never actually heard a scientific explanation for it though.

[benbastin]

Here's my take on it.

Wood for instrument making is dried for a long time before use, typically at least 30 years. It takes this long to full dry out, and make sure your not going to get any nasty surprises with it warping in funny directions. Then you put the wood through an further long process of carving, bending, tweaking, glueing etc
This all changes the properties of the wood drastically, and the further to that it end up covered in varnish. So when you start to play the instrument, all these different components are going to move, and change. Usually this manifests it self in a feeling of tightness or reduced sound in the case of repair, and an opening up as the instrument begins to vibrate together, as the components become one instrument and not a collection of parts. The wood itself has to get used to its new shape and purpose. It had at least 1 hundred if not 2 to 3 hundred as a tree, then a further 30-40 as a plank, then between a few months and a few years being whittled into an instrument, so its hardly surprising its not immediately happy as a bass or a guitar.

In addition to these considerations is the glue used, especially when dealing with laminates. Instruments are traditionally made using hide glue, which seems to be closer to wood in terms of vibration that other glues such as white glues and epoxy often used in cheaper instruments and mass produced guitars. Hide glue certainly has a minimal affect to the wood. Where as when you use laminate which are often made using white glue or epoxy and extreme cases such as the cheaper range of martin guitars the wood itself it impregnated with epoxy, the glue becomes a huge part of the equation, and takes much longer to bed in.

Any instrument that isn't played regularly will not maintain its sound, thats the best thing you can do for any instrument is play the hell out of it every day.

[SevenSeas]

[quote name='benbastin' timestamp='1381312270' post='2237254']
Here's my take on it.

Wood for instrument making is dried for a long time before use, typically at least 30 years. It takes this long to full dry out, and make sure your not going to get any nasty surprises with it warping in funny directions. Then you put the wood through an further long process of carving, bending, tweaking, glueing etc
This all changes the properties of the wood drastically, and the further to that it end up covered in varnish. So when you start to play the instrument, all these different components are going to move, and change. Usually this manifests it self in a feeling of tightness or reduced sound in the case of repair, and an opening up as the instrument begins to vibrate together, as the components become one instrument and not a collection of parts. The wood itself has to get used to its new shape and purpose. It had at least 1 hundred if not 2 to 3 hundred as a tree, then a further 30-40 as a plank, then between a few months and a few years being whittled into an instrument, so its hardly surprising its not immediately happy as a bass or a guitar.

In addition to these considerations is the glue used, especially when dealing with laminates. Instruments are traditionally made using hide glue, which seems to be closer to wood in terms of vibration that other glues such as white glues and epoxy often used in cheaper instruments and mass produced guitars. Hide glue certainly has a minimal affect to the wood. Where as when you use laminate which are often made using white glue or epoxy and extreme cases such as the cheaper range of martin guitars the wood itself it impregnated with epoxy, the glue becomes a huge part of the equation, and takes much longer to bed in.

Any instrument that isn't played regularly will not maintain its sound, thats the best thing you can do for any instrument is play the hell out of it every day.
[/quote]

Awesome.

[geoffbassist]

Great post Ben.

[blinddrew]

Makes sense to me.

[ubassman]

If this really floats your boat there is a book by [font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][color=#282828]Prof. Reumont explaining the physical changes in wood, the changing compression and tension waves / forces of the top due to vibration of the strings , and how these vibrations affect the alignment of the basse's micro fibres ....and how he has tried to speed up the process using science and oscillators etc. [/color][/font][url="http://www.henrystrobel.com/booklist.htm#dedamp"]http://www.henrystro...list.htm#dedamp[/url]

Although I cant see how any artificial vibrations can ever compete with the variety of frequencies , loudness , tone that you get playing, I wouldn't dismiss a mechanical product outright if it helps sweeten things up!

Edited October 9, 2013 by ubassman

[stingrayPete1977]

I only started on my brand new db at the start of this year, after playing it for 15 to 30 minutes a day everyday it is sounding much better

[ShergoldSnickers]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1381339948' post='2237881']
I only started on my brand new db at the start of this year, after playing it for 15 to 30 minutes a day everyday it is sounding much better
[/quote]

I wish mine was...

[stingrayPete1977]

I couldn't get worse and its still not good

[Basstroker]

[quote name='ubassman' timestamp='1381332414' post='2237765']
If this really floats your boat there is a book by [font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][color=#282828]Prof. Reumont explaining the physical changes in wood, the changing compression and tension waves / forces of the top due to vibration of the strings , and how these vibrations affect the alignment of the basse's micro fibres ....and how he has tried to speed up the process using science and oscillators etc. [/color][/font][url="http://www.henrystrobel.com/booklist.htm#dedamp"]http://www.henrystro...list.htm#dedamp[/url]

Although I cant see how any artificial vibrations can ever compete with the variety of frequencies , loudness , tone that you get playing, I wouldn't dismiss a mechanical product outright if it helps sweeten things up!
[/quote] Well, we discuss the "Vibrationsentdämpfung" quiet a lot in Germany. But Jonas Lohse, really an expert in basses and shop owner [url="http://www.kontrabass-atelier.de/index_e.html"]http://www.kontrabas...de/index_e.html[/url] told me once: "I tried the VED on a bass. And in deed, all the bad sounds were gone - and the good sounds either. And it took me a lot of time to get the good sounds back again". Best, Thomas

Edited October 9, 2013 by Basstroker

[henry norton]

[quote name='benbastin' timestamp='1381312270' post='2237254']
Wood for instrument making is dried for a long time before use, typically at least 30 years.
[/quote]
30 years???!!!! Maybe if your paying 20 grand for a bespoke DB!!

Given the choice I'd go for 3 year old wood and 27 years of being played rather than a brand new DB made of 30 year old wood.

[FLoydElgar]

YOlo

[benbastin]

[quote name='henry norton' timestamp='1381349016' post='2238052']
30 years???!!!! Maybe if your paying 20 grand for a bespoke DB!!

Given the choice I'd go for 3 year old wood and 27 years of being played rather than a brand new DB made of 30 year old wood.
[/quote]

Wood takes a long time to dry. This is standard for all wood for building purposes. It seems too much, but if it is not dried slowly and naturally it will twist, warp and split.
You might get away with 10 years with smaller wood, but the size of wood for double bass makes it even more important.

Some people dry wood in kilns for furniture making, this is rarely done for instruments as its less desirable and not as easy to control. Kiln drying can be done relatively quickly.

Also spruce is felled according to phases of the moon, some info here http://www.tonewood.ch/moonwood.html

if you look at this, http://www.flickr.com/photos/60334748@N02/9486863237/ this is the spruce for the bass im building and you can see the moon phase stamped on.

[FLoydElgar]

YOlo

[Marc S]

[quote name='benbastin' timestamp='1381312270' post='2237254']
Here's my take on it.

Wood for instrument making is dried for a long time before use, typically at least 30 years. It takes this long to full dry out, and make sure your not going to get any nasty surprises with it warping in funny directions. Then you put the wood through an further long process of carving, bending, tweaking, glueing etc
This all changes the properties of the wood drastically, and the further to that it end up covered in varnish. So when you start to play the instrument, all these different components are going to move, and change. Usually this manifests it self in a feeling of tightness or reduced sound in the case of repair, and an opening up as the instrument begins to vibrate together, as the components become one instrument and not a collection of parts. The wood itself has to get used to its new shape and purpose. It had at least 1 hundred if not 2 to 3 hundred as a tree, then a further 30-40 as a plank, then between a few months and a few years being whittled into an instrument, so its hardly surprising its not immediately happy as a bass or a guitar.

In addition to these considerations is the glue used, especially when dealing with laminates. Instruments are traditionally made using hide glue, which seems to be closer to wood in terms of vibration that other glues such as white glues and epoxy often used in cheaper instruments and mass produced guitars. Hide glue certainly has a minimal affect to the wood. Where as when you use laminate which are often made using white glue or epoxy and extreme cases such as the cheaper range of martin guitars the wood itself it impregnated with epoxy, the glue becomes a huge part of the equation, and takes much longer to bed in.

Any instrument that isn't played regularly will not maintain its sound, thats the best thing you can do for any instrument is play the hell out of it every day.
[/quote]

A pretty comprehensive answer, I think

[henry norton]

[quote name='benbastin' timestamp='1381397140' post='2238382']
Wood takes a long time to dry. This is standard for all wood for building purposes. It seems too much, but if it is not dried slowly and naturally it will twist, warp and split.
You might get away with 10 years with smaller wood, but the size of wood for double bass makes it even more important.

Some people dry wood in kilns for furniture making, this is rarely done for instruments as its less desirable and not as easy to control. Kiln drying can be done relatively quickly.

Also spruce is felled according to phases of the moon, some info here [url="http://www.tonewood.ch/moonwood.html"]http://www.tonewood.ch/moonwood.html[/url]

if you look at this, [url="http://www.flickr.com/photos/60334748@N02/9486863237/"]http://www.flickr.co...N02/9486863237/[/url] this is the spruce for the bass im building and you can see the moon phase stamped on.
[/quote]
20+ years is generally felt to be ideal for master grade instruments, but I expect the majority of double basses people on this forum play won't have had the benefit of wood seasoned for so long. As for kiln drying, anyone who's played a Fender will have played kiln dried wood.

I use both, most makers/repairers I know do too.

By the way, what does 'YOlo' mean????

Edited October 10, 2013 by henry norton

[FLoydElgar]

You Only live once. YOlo... Mr Bryant does throw a spanner in your ideal thoughts on these "Bespoke" basses...
It's the Luthiers choice...
[url="http://bryantbasses.co.uk/materials"]http://bryantbasses.co.uk/materials[/url]

A Bryant is nothing Special... its a bass that makes an okay sound... nothing desirable... From my experience my sound opens up in changes in technique and really implementing straight bows and paying attention to tension free body... However there are ways to make a bass open up more by playing closer to the bridge with a bow relaxing the weight of the arm into the bow and drawing the sound out from the bass unlike pressing the bow into the bass creating that awful screech...

Oh yeh, Powder rosin yo... It's da bomb...