Double bass sound and how it changes?

[oggiesnr]

Good technique makes a bass open up one hell of a lot more than the age of the wood!

On a more serious note, wood is anhidreous, it take up moisture from the atmosphere and also releases it. It's why basses split and come apart at the seams. The fact that wood has been air dried to 8% over thirty years means very little in a humid atmosphere or a bone dry one, that's part of the justification for adjustable bridges is it not? Imho the quality of the wood and of the basic construction of a bass (or any other instrument) is the biggest determinent of how the instrument will sound.

Steve

[benbastin]

Obviously the player is a much bigger factor in how a bass will sound. But the thread was about how the bass itself changes over time which is an interesting thing to contemplate. I feel my main bass change throughout the year as the seasons change, so there are consideration to take in.

Instrument builders are in a much different position to that of Panormo or Strad. We have access to a huge selection of wood, which we can be pretty sure has been very well looked after. All the time makers are trying to pair down what makes the difference to each instrument. Should it be 4mm thick or 3mm, etc etc etc which really can never be fully explored when the wood is so different, but perhaps a reason for looking for drier and more stable wood choices, is also in that effort to remove variables to the process of building.

Its interesting to hear every bodies experiences of how their instrument has changed since they bought it, or even how its different in the winter to the summer, and then to theorise as to why these things might happen, or even if its just a placebo.

[johnny dissident]

My acoustic guitar playing buddy has been useing Tonerite, and swears by it. Has anyone here actually tried one ? Could it possibly improve my Stentor 1950 ? I don't think that I could justify spending sooo much dosh, find the time to stick to the bow me thinks !

[oggiesnr]

[quote name='benbastin' timestamp='1381481876' post='2239596']
Obviously the player is a much bigger factor in how a bass will sound. But the thread was about how the bass itself changes over time which is an interesting thing to contemplate. I feel my main bass change throughout the year as the seasons change, so there are consideration to take in.

[/quote]

If it's seasonal the I would conjecture it's down to the moisture content of the wood which will change seasonally.

Steve

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='benbastin' timestamp='1381481876' post='2239596']
Obviously the player is a much bigger factor in how a bass will sound. But the thread was about how the bass itself changes over time which is an interesting thing to contemplate. I feel my main bass change throughout the year as the seasons change, so there are consideration to take in.

Instrument builders are in a much different position to that of Panormo or Strad. We have access to a huge selection of wood, which we can be pretty sure has been very well looked after. All the time makers are trying to pair down what makes the difference to each instrument. Should it be 4mm thick or 3mm, etc etc etc which really can never be fully explored when the wood is so different, but perhaps a reason for looking for drier and more stable wood choices, is also in that effort to remove variables to the process of building.

Its interesting to hear every bodies experiences of how their instrument has changed since they bought it, or even how its different in the winter to the summer, and then to theorise as to why these things might happen, or even if its just a placebo.
[/quote]

My bass is somewhere in the region of 100 years old, and it has been several decades since the top was last off for repairs. I guess this means that it's quite settled in terms of long term changes, but I think I do notice a seasonal change in the sound. I [i]think[/i] (but I can't be sure) that it's somewhat quieter and duller sounding during spells of high humidity, especially with the bow. Of course, some of this could be related to my bow hair too.
It's hard for me to say whether the sound "closes up" again if the bass is unplayed for a while, because this usually means that I'm out of practice also. Certainly, I get a better sound when I'm playing every day, but since I only own one double bass, I can't seperate the effect of the amount I'm playing from the amount the bass is being played.

[benbastin]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1381490167' post='2239735']
My bass is somewhere in the region of 100 years old, and it has been several decades since the top was last off for repairs. I guess this means that it's quite settled in terms of long term changes, but I think I do notice a seasonal change in the sound. I [i]think[/i] (but I can't be sure) that it's somewhat quieter and duller sounding during spells of high humidity, especially with the bow. Of course, some of this could be related to my bow hair too.
It's hard for me to say whether the sound "closes up" again if the bass is unplayed for a while, because this usually means that I'm out of practice also. Certainly, I get a better sound when I'm playing every day, but since I only own one double bass, I can't seperate the effect of the amount I'm playing from the amount the bass is being played.
[/quote]

Interesting point about how it is difficult to see how things change due to their being so many variables, not least of all ones own playing

[ubassman]

Too true, Ben too true

I did notice when we had the hot summer that the tone in my workhorse Stentor ll became quite nasal and I adjusted the bridge position and cured it - only by maybe 5 - 10mm but definitely an entirely different bass when the temperature soars ( to regain the tone , the bridge is now back to where it was before ).

The whole point that I think that you were making about 30 year old wood is that unlike younger "un-aged" wood it is not as susceptible to variations in dimension. Thats important . The forces in a double bass are very complex and when a bass expands and contracts in dimension throughout the year due to different moisture content of the seasons , the structure has to adapt to deal with these variations. In essence the basses personality changes subtly . My Stentor ll is far more susceptible to changes than my old bass which seems to be stable but no doubt as the Stentor ages it will settle down ... basses are a just like people really!

[oggiesnr]

The age of the wood doesn't really matter that much, all wood will react to a lesser or greater extent. What does matter is the quality of the wood and the closeness of the grain. Really great instruments (Stradivari etc) are made from very slow growing trees with very even grain which are now hard to find, They also need to be very straight and very clean. There are very few of these trees now left and they only grow properly in a very few regions of Europe.

Steve

[ubassman]

According to this fairly balanced [url="http://www.darntonviolins.com/violinmagazine/book/wood.pdf"]article[/url] ( skip to P4 "age") , Stradivarius used wood aged between 60 - 80 years although del Gesu got away with wood that was perhaps only 3 years old ! However , theres more to it than just initial drying out. The conclusion is that in terms of quality of old wood there are also plenty of fine instruments made with all sorts of timber 'defects' but that the older wood gets it tends to produce better instruments due to a process known as Humidity Cycling. Food for thought!

Edited October 11, 2013 by ubassman

[henry norton]

[quote name='ubassman' timestamp='1381504803' post='2240034']
I did notice when we had the hot summer that the tone in my workhorse Stentor ll became quite nasal and I adjusted the bridge position and cured it - only by maybe 5 - 10mm but definitely an entirely different bass when the temperature soars ( to regain the tone , the bridge is now back to where it was before ).
[/quote]

You moved the bridge position - don't you mean you moved the sound post???

[ubassman]

No just shifted the bridge a tad - I didnt need to move the sound post ( one of Chuck Treagher's tricks which certainly did the job - I shifted the bridge back to its normal position when the weather went back to normal ).

Edited October 11, 2013 by ubassman

[henry norton]

[quote name='ubassman' timestamp='1381524056' post='2240407']
No just shifted the bridge a tad - I didnt need to move the sound post ( one of Chuck Treagher's tricks which certainly did the job - I shifted the bridge back to its normal position when the weather went back to normal ).
[/quote]That's an interesting way of dealing with seasonal changes - certainly cheaper for the player than getting a luthier to adjust their sound post, and I suppose it'll do a similar job of shifting slightly the relationship between the bridge and post. That's a Charles Traeger trick? How did I not know it?????

So, getting back on topic, the sound of double basses change due to the effects of time, with playing [i]and [/i]with the seasons (mainly humidity). It's one of the reasons we love 'em so much.

[benbastin]

Interesting video from L'arrivee guitars. He talks at around 10 mins in about leaving his guitars to "settle"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3P6HcKVTrY

I thought some of you may enjoy this.

[ubassman]

[quote name='henry norton' timestamp='1381569575' post='2240699']
That's a Charles Traeger trick? How did I not know it?????
[/quote]

"Luthiers tricks" aren't so easy to find are they !

[Marc S]

Reading this post got me interested in the position of the sound post
As a relative newcomer to the wonderful world of DB's
I started to search for issues on the position of the soundpost,
and can't seem to find too much info

How did it effect the sound from your DB ubassman?
and how did you move it?
I understood it to be rather tricky, and a task really only to be undertaken by an experienced luthier

Cheers again
Marc

[ubassman]

Short answer is here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_post .

The diagram at the bottom explains the effects of moving the sound post.

There is the theoretical position of the ideal placement of where the sound post should go . The bridge is first centred with the upper f hole notches, one foot centred over the bassbar and the sound post centred on the other foot but moved towards the tailpiece the same distance as thickness as the post . This is in theory. However in practice the sound post can sound better tweaked in one direction or another. Often on a bass the bridge is only a "near enough" fit using a standard blank and adjustments need to be made if the f holes aren't quite symmetrical, if the top or other parts of the bass have distorted a tad over time, if the fingerboard isnt straight etc

If you take your bass to a Luthier they will carefully take measurements to first get a well placed bridge and then secondly look at adjusting the post to get the best sound. It is a skill in its own right - keyhole surgery through the f hole and yes, best done by an experienced luthier if you want a good quality of sound.

[Marc S]

Thanks for that link ubassman
Useful info there, in plain English too

The post has been moved, at some point in my own DB
You can see the position it used to be in
It's more toward the G string of the bass,
and a bit further toward the tailpiece

I think this bears out, according to that illustration, in terms of the sound I'm getting
I'm quite happy with it the way it is,
but I have wondered whether, because it has been moved, whether it could "fall over"
Seems firmly enough in place....

And just what would happen if a soundpost did fall over?

Cheers again

[ubassman]

Apart from the sound dying, theres a lot of pressure on the top exerted by the bridge foot and if the sound post falls over theres the risk that top will split , deform or both - all repairable but very expensive in comparison to having the sound post refitted by a Luthier!