Matt Garrison - how are his basses set up ?.

[mcgraham]

6stringbassist - I think I read the same article as you about MG's action being as low as can be achieved without buzzing. I also recall this same article (or forum post?) saying that the bass would likely buzz and rattle all over the place if it wasn't for the ramp keeping things under control.

However, Enrico at Wood&Tronics happens to be a good friend of Matt Garrison (my understanding is that they were in the States together/same time). He and Mark @ BassDirect have both mentioned that the/one of the keys to great tone is a slightly higher action than 'super low', and that artists such as Matt Garrison know and use this; same with guitarists. I can verify this to some extent.

In short, my action qualified as super low, ~1-1.5mm @ 12th fret without any notes fretted. I then backed it off to about 1.5-2.5mm (still very low but not as low as it was) The lowest action trained me to play with a light touch, but the fractionally higher action afforded me better tone, and a wider range of accessible dynamics. It also feels better. Try it yourself, you may be pleasantly surprised by the sound and the feel.

Mark

[Lfalex v1.1]

I'm not familliar with MG's work or his tone, but if it's fluency you're after, then a low action is definitely beneficial. To stop buzzing with a "borderline" action, it is necessary to revisit your plucking hand technique (in terms of delicacy).
If you start "digging in", which I reckon most of us start to when under presure or playing live, then you're probably striking the strings too hard for a bass with such a low action to escape buzzing / clanging.
Ramps definitely help (or having a pick-up in the right place!)
Another helpful step is to turn up your pre-amp gain to a point that renders your non-delicate style too loud or distorted, and adjust the amp's output volume to suit the situation.
In this way, you'll start edging into overdrive if you're hitting the strings hard enough to get buzz.
I've found that it "warns" me that I'm playing too hard and I ease off accordingly... plus it improves the signal/noise ratio of your bass...

The above assumes that other aspects of your chosen instrument are as close to perfection as can be achieved;
Fret wear / Relative "Levelness" of frets.
Neck relief.
Neck Stability.

Tinkering with your pickup height/ tilt may help even out any tonal / volume loss from playing with a lighter touch.

Bear in mind that string gauge choice makes a difference, too.
Lighter strings are more responsive, but run lower tensions, and so have a larger vibration loop. Maikng them more likely to hit the frets as they oscillate.
Heavier strings are less responsive, but deepen tone and have a smaller oscillation loop due to higher tension and may allow a lower action because of this.

If MG is Tuned CGDAE, it might explain his choice of a "Medium" 0.100 gauge "E" string. I'd ASSUME his set runs something like;

.025, .045, .065, .080, .100

Give or take 0.005 here or there!!

[6stringbassist]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='224693' date='Jun 23 2008, 08:19 AM']6stringbassist - I think I read the same article as you about MG's action being as low as can be achieved without buzzing. I also recall this same article (or forum post?) saying that the bass would likely buzz and rattle all over the place if it wasn't for the ramp keeping things under control.

However, Enrico at Wood&Tronics happens to be a good friend of Matt Garrison (my understanding is that they were in the States together/same time). He and Mark @ BassDirect have both mentioned that the/one of the keys to great tone is a slightly higher action than 'super low', and that artists such as Matt Garrison know and use this; same with guitarists. I can verify this to some extent.

In short, my action qualified as super low, ~1-1.5mm @ 12th fret without any notes fretted. I then backed it off to about 1.5-2.5mm (still very low but not as low as it was) The lowest action trained me to play with a light touch, but the fractionally higher action afforded me better tone, and a wider range of accessible dynamics. It also feels better. Try it yourself, you may be pleasantly surprised by the sound and the feel.

Mark[/quote]

Thanks Mark.

I think mine qualified as 'super low', it was about 1 - 1.5mm, it's now slightly higher. I'm convinced that the singlecut design makes the neck a bit more stable, enabling this low action.

I play using predominantly 'free strokes', and have a very light touch, I increased my action to improve the sound a bit, I was convinced that Matt must have done the same, to get his sound.

And MikeyD, I love the Future2future DVD, his sound and playing on that is really awsome, I was watching that Saturday night for the umteenth time.

Kevin

[mcgraham]

I agree about the future2future clips. I've only seen bits on Youtube, but his sound even on those not-so-great quality vids is great. Although saying that I agree with XB to a certain extent, as a bass player his sound on certain albums and certain songs lacks, and really doesn't do it's job. I don't want/intend to belittle bass as an expressive instrument, but it's called a 'bass' for a reason. That doesn't mean you have to stick to root notes, avoid chords, use two fingers, only play down low, and only eq to have low mids and bass, but it's important to have the bass function fulfilled in a group. Whilst that role doesn't necessarily need to be filled by the bass player, it does make quite a bit of sense to do it that way round.

Just my opinion

Mark

[6stringbassist]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='225063' date='Jun 23 2008, 02:47 PM']I agree about the future2future clips. I've only seen bits on Youtube, but his sound even on those not-so-great quality vids is great. Although saying that I agree with XB to a certain extent, as a bass player his sound on certain albums and certain songs lacks, and really doesn't do it's job. I don't want/intend to belittle bass as an expressive instrument, but it's called a 'bass' for a reason. That doesn't mean you have to stick to root notes, avoid chords, use two fingers, only play down low, and only eq to have low mids and bass, but it's important to have the bass function fulfilled in a group. Whilst that role doesn't necessarily need to be filled by the bass player, it does make quite a bit of sense to do it that way round.

Just my opinion

Mark[/quote]

Check out the DVD, it's really worth seeing.

He's got an excellent live CD/DVD out as well, it's only available from his website and features Jojo Mayer on drums.

I can think of several other players with a worse bass tone than Matts, Marcus Millers for instance, I was listening to his live album earlier, now he really could do with a bass player.

[mcgraham]

[quote]Check out the DVD, it's really worth seeing.

He's got an excellent live CD/DVD out as well, it's only available from his website and features Jojo Mayer on drums.

I can think of several other players with a worse bass tone than Matts, Marcus Millers for instance, I was listening to his live album earlier, now he really could do with a bass player.[/quote]

It does look amazing... I [i]do[/i] need some more music DVD's. I have an addiction to watching live concerts of great musicians.

I have the Live CD/DVD, ordered it shortly after it came out. He was kind enough to autograph it with a short message too. I didn't request it so I imagine he does/did it for most orders, but it's still awesome to have a signed copy.

Re: Marcus Miller, I (personally) disagree with you there. Whilst I would [i]completely[/i] agree that his sound does not fulfil the typical bass role, I am constantly amazed by how muscular and thick his sound is, even with the trademark slap-a-rama he fills his songs with. Whilst I'm not too keen on how every song appears to be filled with that particular sound, I am amazed how he manages to still fill the bass role (to a reasonable extent) even with his trademark sound.

Mark

[6stringbassist]

Yeah, my copy is signed too.

[bassjamm]

He did have a great sound at that gig...not my favourite sound, but what he does with it is awesome. He has a very thin bass sound to my ears, but his bass does sound like a Fodera!!! As you'd expect.

I had a lesson with Janek last year, as did Geoffbassist, Geoff played Janek's MG Fodera, he said it was low, but that he didn't sound like Janek. To be fair guys, anyone thinking they'll sound like someone else by having the same bass is not thinking straight. You'll only have the same tool to get that sound, but you won't have the players time, feel, voice etc.

As for the lack of buzz, i guess it's just down to the quality of the instrument, and the Fodera's are awesome. Don't forget though that the Fodera guys will have spent hours and hours making sure it was spot on for Matt. I know Janek visits them frequently for setups and what not, so if they'll give Janek time to make sure he's happy, i would have thought that they would make sure Matt is just as happy! Having said that, they're pretty stable instruments, so i doubt they need much tweaking once you've struck a happy medium.

As for the drop tuning thingy, check out Janek's forum on talkbass, i'm sure he put a post up a year or so ago about his string gauges and the drops. If you can't find it, just ask him. I know he's not Matt, but still, he may be able to offer some thoughts!

Jam

[urb]

Just to chuck my tupence worth on this - I think it's all a combination of yes a great Fodera neck, they leave the necks on the shelf for 18 months to dry and set before they use them - I was lucky enough to go to Fodera with Matt and I've seen the wood store - truly mind blowing!

I have a hipshot D-tuner on my Thumb bass but because I added it myself - and not during the build process (which you could on a custum bass) the tuner could not go below a low C# - but the strong maintain enough tension to sound thick and solid in tone. I guess with Matt's super fine tuned set up a low B is cool.

Re my Sei bass - I just had Martin tweak the set up as I was getting a little buzz on one fret (the 23rd on the G string) he actually raised the action a tiny bit and fine adjusted it across all the strings and now it plays soooooo great! He's going to gently polish the frets with some wire wool when I can leave the bass with him for a few days and that should make it even slicker - 6stringbassst it might be an idea for you to pop your bass back to the Gallery for a fine tune as well - new basses do take a while to 'settle' - I'm sure you can get it playing EVEN better...

Cheers

Mike

[mcgraham]

I personally wouldn't go so far as to say Matt's tone is thin, it is a generally more 'open' sound, with a defined crisp attack, and much more treble than the average typical bass sound, almost like the way classical/acoustic guitars sound. Very crisp, clean, full sounding on each note.

Regarding lack of buzz, good construction plays a part i.e. if the fret job is good, and the neck, body and coupling is rigid (ideally does not move at all) then buzzing should be minimal.

We've touched on the topic of having a unique voice/sound. As an aside, I hate pretentiousness; therefore I have to be honest about the whole 'unique voice' thing. Whilst I do not deny that certain musicians are easily identifiable on any instrument, and that they have developed their own distinct sound (encompassing note choices, feel, phrasing, specific tonal attributes, etc), I do not agree that other people cannot ever sound [i]like[/i] them. I will acknowledge that sounding exactly like someone may require a great amount of work (and that to sound EXACTLY like them may be impossible; see note below), but these people are only human, and so are we. As such, if we've heard something, we [i]can[/i] learn to replicate/approximate it to a good degree.

I truly believe that if you have even an iota of talent, and the discipline to put in hard work and time on your instrument, you can accomplish and approximate virtually anything you set your mind to.

Again, just my opinion

Mark

NOTE: As the average listener cannot accurately discern the difference between two completely different musicians (Dave Grohl and Joe Satriani being a quotable example), then sounding 'exactly' like someone is too subjective purely from the perspective of human ears. I therefore propose that to sound 'exactly' like someone means that if the waveform of a recording of an imitated piece is inverted, and played over the recording of the original then the signals totally cancel each other out. Whilst having a machine effectively decide how close an imitation sounds to an original may appear to be completely absurd, it at least provides for an objective comparison of an imitated piece.

[6stringbassist]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='225667' date='Jun 24 2008, 09:54 AM']I personally wouldn't go so far as to say Matt's tone is thin, it is a generally more 'open' sound, with a defined crisp attack, and much more treble than the average typical bass sound, almost like the way classical/acoustic guitars sound. Very crisp, clean, full sounding on each note.

Regarding lack of buzz, good construction plays a part i.e. if the fret job is good, and the neck, body and coupling is rigid (ideally does not move at all) then buzzing should be minimal.

We've touched on the topic of having a unique voice/sound. As an aside, I hate pretentiousness; therefore I have to be honest about the whole 'unique voice' thing. Whilst I do not deny that certain musicians are easily identifiable on any instrument, and that they have developed their own distinct sound (encompassing note choices, feel, phrasing, specific tonal attributes, etc), I do not agree that other people cannot ever sound [i]like[/i] them. I will acknowledge that sounding exactly like someone may require a great amount of work (and that to sound EXACTLY like them may be impossible; see note below), but these people are only human, and so are we. As such, if we've heard something, we [i]can[/i] learn to replicate/approximate it to a good degree.

I truly believe that if you have even an iota of talent, and the discipline to put in hard work and time on your instrument, you can accomplish and approximate virtually anything you set your mind to.

Again, just my opinion

Mark

NOTE: As the average listener cannot accurately discern the difference between two completely different musicians (Dave Grohl and Joe Satriani being a quotable example), then sounding 'exactly' like someone is too subjective purely from the perspective of human ears. I therefore propose that to sound 'exactly' like someone means that if the waveform of a recording of an imitated piece is inverted, and played over the recording of the original then the signals totally cancel each other out. Whilst having a machine effectively decide how close an imitation sounds to an original may appear to be completely absurd, it at least provides for an objective comparison of an imitated piece.[/quote]


Mark, I think you've described Matts sound perfectly.

I was listening to his first album this morning, and that's exactly how his bass sounds.

[steve-soar]

This is what I love about Basschat, the way in which a topic can go through so many tangential forms.

I worked for Keith Bennion at KGB Music and in my time there, I must have done 600+ fret dressings, from light passes with the file and wire wool, like Urb mentioned, to taking plenty of meat off and re-profiling with a diamond file, through the grades of paper and then a buff to a mirror like finish, checking all the time with a high quality straight edge.

You would think that after that after a pro fret dress and setup, that a bass would be ready for an ultra low action, in reality, only a few that I saw were capable of having the action ultra low. This is because it doesn't mean a thing unless the neck is totally stable.

On bolt-on neck basses, the pocket has to be a perfect fit for the neck, in set and thru basses, the build quality has to be spot-on, carbon stiffening rods go a long way to sorting bendy necks (Jaydee).
Singlecut basses finally give a chance to get a firm foundation for the fingerboard and frets to be shaped and dressed to perfection and there is that word again, perfection. I'm always tweeking my basses for a little bit of improvment here and there.

When I played Kevs Modulus, I thought that he hadn't tuned the strings up, its action was that low and the tension of the strings was so light, thats a high quality carbon composite neck for you.
When I got my ACG Singlecut, I was amazed at the low action and overall stiffness of the neck, Alan builds a solid bass.

So, a solid well built bass, with a solid neck and great fretting, choice of fingerboard and neck material are the foundation you need for a low action.

As for Matts tone, I think he expresses himself beautifully on the bass guitar and I'm sure he doesn't want to sound like someone standing at the back of a stage playing Mustang Sally.

[urb]

Cool - right on we go then - the other thing I think helps with Matts setup is actually the single cuttaway - Vinnie said he actually started making these after Anthony Jackson and he conceived the idea of creating a way making the neck more rigid - I love the way it makes the top (high) end of my neck feel.

Re Matt's sound - this is something I've considered a great deal over the years I've listened to him - personally I think he actually has a softer tone that most bassists because he actually uses thinner frets and can get some of the burr of the fretboard coming into his tone - as he's said in the past he wants to get a bit of 'fretless' tone in there as well. If you listen to some of his solos on his albums - or that great one on the Meshell tune 'Papillion' - he gets a beautiful woody tone, that is like a bouncy fretless tone. He also uses a lot of slurs, small pull offs and the odd slide to really mix up his phrasing. The sound he went for on the Charlie Wright's gig was a lot harsher - far more in your face - but then he was playing like a lead guitarist some of the time! I think the sound he gets on 'Dolphin Dance' on the Herbie DVD is more like his 'fretless' aproach - it's a beautful tone.

Which leads me on to the whole 'unique' voice thing - there are IMO many bassists (and musicians in general) who are instantly recognisable - Matt is one of them - but as I've said elsewhere - give the likes of Vic Wooten of Matt G a different bass from the one they normally use and they will still sound like themselves. This is because much of their sound is created through specific ways of picking, their note choices, their phrasing, timing etc etc etc - it is, at the end of the day, all in your fingers.

Spend enough time developing your own vocabulary and sound - and you will sound like you too!

M

[mcgraham]

[quote]Mark, I think you've described Matts sound perfectly.[/quote]
It's good to know I'm not the only one who hears it the same way!

Re: Matt's expressiveness, I completely agree about the way he makes his phrases flow. Very smooth (when he wants them to be), and very different to the way that bassists tend to, and have tended to play in the past. I particularly like how effortless his slurs are, and how subtle he makes them. I am the opinion that the smaller frets help make them less of a separate entity in the/his sound, and more a subtle and welcome contribution to his overall playing.

Mark

[6stringbassist]

Papillon, great track, a really good album too.

I totally agree on the single cut, I mentioned it earlier, and it definitely improves the stability, and I think the sound is bigger, having more wood there definitely effects the sound, you really notice it when playing acoustically.

I know a lot of people find the singlecut design ugly, but I love mine .

[mcgraham]

Pray tell, is there perhaps an ulterior motive behind this thread?

Mark

[6stringbassist]

No, I just saw him play live, and was interested to find out more about his setup.

I've been an admirer of his playing for years.

Edited June 24, 2008 by 6stringbassist