Science? Marketing? Or just a load of old Bollock?

[icastle]

[quote name='Greggo' timestamp='1381653225' post='2241718']
We Should concentrate on looking into "tone metals".
[/quote]

Sort of 'what's the best metal for metal?' ?

[Greggo]

[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1381653733' post='2241728']


Sort of 'what's the best metal for metal?' ?
[/quote]

Tungsten because it has a scooped sound and lots of top end when you tap on it with a spoon! The tone spoon doesn't lie!

[discreet]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1381622249' post='2241621']
Does that mean that it's almost bollocks but not quite?
[/quote]

I was merely answering the OP's question.

[bubinga5]

i think that guy from Fender is a f***ing moron.

[paul h]

[quote name='gjones' timestamp='1381585889' post='2241008']
I don't know about guitars but I've experimented with a lot of my basses over the years. The first time I realised that the neck makes a big difference to the sound was when I bought a Geddy Lee. I loved it's playability but it was just too toppy and twangy (dare I say weak sounding) for me. I bought an Allparts neck for my Squier Jazz and as an experiment I fitted it to the Geddy. The neck was quite chunky and deep, compared to the ultra shallow Geddy neck, and made a huge difference to the sound. It deepened it out and made it a lot rounder. The affect it had on the sound was as pronounced as if I had fitted different pickups.

Recently I bought a mighty mite Jazz neck, which I have fitted to my precision. I then fitted the Precision neck to my Jazz. The result is a much lighter and defined sound to the notes from my Precision and a deeper rounder sound from my Jazz. Which is exactly what I was looking for.

I know a lot of people don't like messing around with the necks of their basses but trust me, the neck of a bass ( and presumably a guitar as well) makes a big difference to the overall sound.
[/quote]

This.

I am a big fan of a P with a J neck. I put one on my Jim Deacon bitsa and it definitely makes a big change to the tone.

[Dingus]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1381654265' post='2241735']
I was merely answering the OP's question.
[/quote]

My mistake. We are agreed then that the chap is singularly talking a load of bollocks .

[Dingus]

[quote name='gjones' timestamp='1381592493' post='2241162']
Knocking a bit of wood with a hammer is not very scientific, that's true, but from my own experience pairing different necks with different bodies makes a big difference to the sound. A Geddy Lee bass, fitted with a baseball bat neck, won't sound like a Geddy Lee anymore (I know because I've done it)..
[/quote]

I wholeheartedly agree with you on this point. I'm sure the uber-skinny neck on the Geddy Lee has a lot to do with the rather nasal sound of that bass, for example .

Neck fabrication and its' many variables has an effect on the sound of a bass in various ways , that is not in question as far as I am concerned. It's just that I am dubious that a builder can make an educated and informed decision on how he is going to influence the sound of a bass by tapping on the bits of wood . This banging on the wood and seeing how it rings goes all the way back to Leo Fender in his workshop, according to those who knew him , but who is to say that the judgements made on mating whatever neck to a particular body and the final results of those decisions were and are ever anything but pot luck in the end?

The purpose of these videos is for Fender to encourage the idea that if you buy one of their Custom Shop instruments then you have not only paid for what you have got in your hands but also for the tapping and listening that went on when the body and neck were selected. I suppose some people will feel reassured by that.

Edited October 13, 2013 by Dingus

[mcnach]

[quote name='bubinga5' timestamp='1381654498' post='2241742']
i think that guy from Fender is a f***ing moron.
[/quote]

or... he knows there is a substantial market who would listen to that and think "yeah! Fender!"

Cynical? Me? Goodness gracious!

[discreet]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1381666544' post='2241940']
[size=4]Cynical? Me? Goodness gracious! [/size]
[/quote]

No!! Heaven forfend and God forbid!!

[flyfisher]

[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1381587832' post='2241041']
On an acoustic instrument I can see the benefits of selecting and using different wood types to achieve a particular tone.

On even the simplest of electric instruments you have a tone control of some description and at that point I have to question the validity of getting hung up on wood types to control tone.
[/quote]

That just about sums it up for me. Indeed, it's not just simple tone controls but can be full-on graphic equalisers and a whole bunch effects pedals, never mind harmonically-rich valve amps. That's not to say that a bit of wood might not make some difference, in some way, in some part of the audio spectrum, but my guess is that it'll be so slight that no one could ever tell (unless it was brought to the fore by using high-grade oxygen-free uni-directional unobtainium instrument leads of course ).

[Count Bassy]

It seems odd to me that we have a forum of mostly amateurs (when it comes to bass building) slagging off someone who has been doing it as a career for quite a few years. i.e. "I can't understand how tapping a piece of wood with a hammer can help predict its tone in a guitar, so therefore it must be wrong". Are these the same armchair experts that shout their valued advice to the professional players while watching Man. U. V. Chelsea on the telly?

It may well be a load of old bollocks, but I personally would not venture to slag someone else off when I don't know any better myself. Also I agree that he gets a bit muddled in places, but so might I if my boss said "explain your job on video".

I also agree that with an electric guitar tone can be manipulated in many ways, which can reduce the effect of woods, but as a general principal in life (IMHO) its best to get the fundamentals right and build on that. I.e. build on rock rather than sand.

And on the technical side of hitting it with a hammer. This is a common and accepted technique when determining resonances in machine tool structures (though monitored by accelerometers rather than by ear).

[xilddx]

[quote name='Count Bassy' timestamp='1381694874' post='2242545']
It seems odd to me that we have a forum of mostly amateurs (when it comes to bass building) slagging off someone who has been doing it as a career for quite a few years. i.e. "I can't understand how tapping a piece of wood with a hammer can help predict its tone in a guitar, so therefore it must be wrong". Are these the same armchair experts that shout their valued advice to the professional players while watching Man. U. V. Chelsea on the telly?

It may well be a load of old bollocks, but I personally would not venture to slag someone else off when I don't know any better myself. Also I agree that he gets a bit muddled in places, but so might I if my boss said "explain your job on video".

I also agree that with an electric guitar tone can be manipulated in many ways, which can reduce the effect of woods, but as a general principal in life (IMHO) its best to get the fundamentals right and build on that. I.e. build on rock rather than sand.

And on the technical side of hitting it with a hammer. This is a common and accepted technique when determining resonances in machine tool structures (though monitored by accelerometers rather than by ear).
[/quote]

You've heard of summat called marketing and public relations, right?

[kevin_lindsay]

I hsd a Custom Shop '61 Jazz with a quartersawn neck, and yes, it did make a difference to the sound. The extra stiffness made the bass a bit more "lively" than on the equivalent flatsawn version.

the sound wasn't "better", but it certainly made a difference in that the bass had more overtones than the flatsawn version. To my ears it sounded a bit more "modern".

[dannybuoy]

Ok, putting my mechanical engineering hat on:

When trying to match a body and neck, if both pieces have a similar resonant frequency, then that would enhance the amount of vibration you feel through the guitar, making it 'sing' more, but perhaps it might also make deadspots more common, since the body and neck transfer energy away from the strings at this resonant frequency.

So you might have two design aims in mind: choose two pieces that are as close as possible in resonant frequency; or the opposite, choose two pieces that are as far apart as possible.

His method however does not fit with either of these two aims. Matching the highest pitch neck with the lowest pitch body, and the lowest pitch neck with the highest pitch body, would end up with a wide range of results, with some pairings resonating together and some not.

I'd be less inclined to say it's bollocks if he actually explained things properly, but he doesn't appear to understand what's going on well enough to do this.

[dannybuoy]

[quote name='kevin_lindsay' timestamp='1381697910' post='2242616']
I hsd a Custom Shop '61 Jazz with a quartersawn neck, and yes, it did make a difference to the sound. The extra stiffness made the bass a bit more "lively" than on the equivalent flatsawn version.

the sound wasn't "better", but it certainly made a difference in that the bass had more overtones than the flatsawn version. To my ears it sounded a bit more "modern".
[/quote]

I definitely notice the same between my BB1025X and BB415, so I believe the quarter sawn laminate neck (and/or the biscuit jointed body and string through bridge) contribute to that. It's just his method of matching pieces I am questioning!

[discreet]

[quote name='dannybuoy' timestamp='1381698369' post='2242630']
I'd be less inclined to say it's bollocks if he actually explained things properly, but he doesn't appear to understand what's going on...
[/quote]

Me neither. I still suspect it's bollock.

[paulflan0151]

Tap tone does work but not like that video. You have to hold the wood in a certain way, so it's free to vibrate. Then tap it but your not listening to the note but the way the note vibrates and for how long. It's more of a acoustic guitar thing but does work for electrics too. The mass of the neck (or any part of the guitar) matters too. Mostly the sound is based on the pickups and electrics but the wood does make a difference, it's just more complicated than he makes out. Luthiery is a art not a science!

[Count Bassy]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1381695614' post='2242571']
You've heard of summat called marketing and public relations, right?
[/quote]

Off course, and it may be that. Certainly the fact that it has been videoed and put on the net is a marketing exercise and not some altruistic gesture to share the knowledge. He may even be an actor playing the bumbling craftsman to sucker us all in, but I don't see how that affects my comments. To repeat/clarify the core of my point: It may be a "load of bollocks", but I don't have enough knowledge to pass comment either way. However, it's not a great leap to see how the resonance of a piece of wood when hit with a hammer might give an indication of how it will sound on a guitar, so I am reluctant to slag the bloke off as talking a load of bollocks based on that video. Other people seem not to share that reluctance.[size=4] If some experienced builders came on this site and contradicted what he says from a position of knowledge then I'd pay them far more heed.[/size]

[size=4]If, say, John Shuker put a video up saying that same thing would be be slagging that off as marketing hype? I suspect not. It would be "Oooh its John Shuker, it must be true", when in reality the bloke in the video has probably built (all right - assembled) more guitars than John Shuker will in his life time.[/size]

[size=4]Hasten to add that I have nothing against John Shuker, its just a name of a builder who gets mentioned a lot round here.[/size]

[size=4]In the past I've seen threads about health and safety, and seen how keen you are to defend your professional position and knowledge. I just think that, in the absence of knowledge to the contrary, we should give this [/size][size=4]the bloke benefit of the doubt regarding his professional opinion.[/size]

[discreet]

[quote name='Count Bassy' timestamp='1381698856' post='2242646']
[size=4]I just think that, in the absence of knowledge to the contrary, we should give this [/size][size=4]the bloke benefit of the doubt regarding his professional opinion.[/size]
[/quote]

Hmm... good post. I'm mindful of the fact that when I do anything in a professional capacity I'm generally making it up as I go along.

[peteb]

[quote name='Count Bassy' timestamp='1381694874' post='2242545']
It seems odd to me that we have a forum of mostly amateurs (when it comes to bass building) slagging off someone who has been doing it as a career for quite a few years. i.e. "I can't understand how tapping a piece of wood with a hammer can help predict its tone in a guitar, so therefore it must be wrong". Are these the same armchair experts that shout their valued advice to the professional players while watching Man. U. V. Chelsea on the telly?

It may well be a load of old bollocks, but I personally would not venture to slag someone else off when I don't know any better myself. Also I agree that he gets a bit muddled in places, but so might I if my boss said "explain your job on video".

I also agree that with an electric guitar tone can be manipulated in many ways, which can reduce the effect of woods, but as a general principal in life (IMHO) its best to get the fundamentals right and build on that. I.e. build on rock rather than sand.

And on the technical side of hitting it with a hammer. This is a common and accepted technique when determining resonances in machine tool structures (though monitored by accelerometers rather than by ear).
[/quote]
Good post!

I agree but take note of Dannybuoy’s comments above (post #39)…

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='paulflan0151' timestamp='1381698745' post='2242643']
Luthiery is a art not a science!
[/quote]

Fender is in the production engineering business though. Its all designed to minimise the variance that results from inconsistent material, truss rods and adjsutable bridges, bolt together parts so you can shim and tweak, with minimal skills and time. Also amps providing the dominant colour.

[steve-soar]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1381679137' post='2242188']
That just about sums it up for me. Indeed, it's not just simple tone controls but can be full-on graphic equalisers and a whole bunch effects pedals, never mind harmonically-rich valve amps. That's not to say that a bit of wood might not make some difference, in some way, in some part of the audio spectrum, but my guess is that it'll be so slight that no one could ever tell (unless it was brought to the fore by using high-grade oxygen-free uni-directional unobtainium instrument leads of course ).
[/quote]
Well said.

[steve-soar]

let the engineer sort it out. Any bass guitar, can be recordable. That vid is snake oil. If the listener cares about instrument construction, then they have little, or no regard for the music.

[neepheid]

Putting my scientist hat on, I'd say that an electric bass is a collision of coincidences, guided in the general direction of perfection by a combination of skill, experience, intuition and luck.

[51m0n]

I dunno. I think this guys efforts seem a tad simplistic.

However I'm willing to gove this guys efforts more benefit of the doubt:-
[url="http://www.tdpri.com/forum/tele-home-depot/169606-1960-jazzbass-build.html"]http://www.tdpri.com...bass-build.html[/url]

But then he seems to be able to explain what he's doing better, and the result can be heard here:-
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6E7iSATY7M[/media]
And it certainly sounds how he describes it in the build diary.
However a much larger change to the tone is the use of the original felt mutes, which really do make it sound a lot more like a double bass:-
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwYoi9G67DU[/media]

Personally I think the strings make a more overt difference to the final tone than whether the wood is quarter sawn or not or when you hit it with a mallet it goes pink or thump in a certain area of the uncut blank. And dont lets go near the possible changes caused by different electronics!

Edited October 14, 2013 by 51m0n