Fool for your Loving - Whitesnake - Help

[Woodinblack]

1 hour ago, dmccombe7 said:

Thanks for being so honest and open. Its something that i never really thought about. I've always just made the assumption based on myself that its down to not practising hard or long enough.

 

21 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

It was a really good exercise and helped me step up a notch in my playing.

 

There is of course a bit of both. I was always in the 'I can never play hit me with your rythmn stick' because it is too fast for me. Turns out with a lot of playing slow and speeding up, I now can mostly play it. I am now sure I am hitting a physical limit but before that I was definately against a mental limit.

[Bilbo]

I used to have 'Jeff Berlin' chops (I could play at that speed but, if I am honest, never had the ideas to back to up) but have not worked on my chops for decades. I have been transcribing a lot of Jeff Berlin recently and it has shown how much I have 'slowed down' over the years (not because I can't but because I don't). Someone one said that he had never met a musician who didn't have more chops that he knew how to use and that was definitely me. The problem with having a lot of chops, especially if you live out in the sticks, is that there is no-one else to work with. Jeff Berlin with no Bruford, no Allan Holdsworth, no etc etc. So, unless you can find an outlet for those chops, you lose them. There is also the issue of whether the gigs you do are improvisation based or arrangement based - chops for written parts is different to chops for blowing (which is often why classical players are better technicians than improvisers but can't play without the dots).

Nothing in this tune that is that chopsy.

Edited August 6, 2020 by Bilbo

[Steve Browning]

This is all sounding a bit "Jimmy Page was 25 when he wrote Stairway, but I could play it when I was 17" about it.

[Bilbo]

Kids are playing Donna Lee when they are 5 now so chops mean nothing. It is the ideas that matter. 

[4000]

I always had very good speed and dexterity, it’s something I worked on a lot from day one. I can’t play as fast as I could years ago, because I don’t practise as much (ever!) and I have nerve damage, particularly in my right hand, but I can still get a shift on when necessary. In terms of actually moving my fingers (which certainly isn’t the whole story), I can play at the sort of speed of the Berlins and Garrisons; however in terms of actual musical content, particularly at speed, I’m a long way behind them. 😉 

The things that tripped me up were certain feels rather than chops stuff; I’ve never managed to play stuff like Rhythm Stick remotely as groovily as Norman (although admittedly I’ve never actually practised it), and the staccato finger funk thing was never something I really did, mainly because I spent most of my time practising to try and make my playing more legato (blame it on Frank Marino; when I first heard Frank I decided I wanted to sound like him but on bass). I always found Jaco’s and Rocco’s kind of stuff really hard to cop (although again never really practised it) just because of that staccato feel, which is completely alien to me. And to be honest it wasn’t my bag. I’d probably find it easier to cop some blazing Berlin solo than Bernard Edwards or Stu Zender, which probably speaks volumes (and I’ much sooner be able to play like Bernard or Stu). I certainly wouldn’t class myself as a groove player, but then I’ve never really needed to be so it’s not a skill I’ve worked on. I often wish I had. And since the nerve damage the limited groove chops I did have have suffered greatly, simply because using my right hand/arm for repetitive stuff is now like trying to do the Thor’s Hammer exercise in Worlds Strongest Man. 

My initial comment was more about learning by ear though. I’m not sure I’ve ever really heard anything that I can’t work out by ear, from day one, so it’s always difficult for me to imagine what it must be like when you can’t. Given I rely 100% on my ears, I’d sink very, very fast!

EDIT: thinking about the above chops stuff, I suppose a summary would be to say that I’ve never really heard someone and thought “I can’t play that fast!”, but the instances of thinking “I can’t play that well!” Are countless. 😉

 

Edited August 6, 2020 by 4000

[peteb]

1 minute ago, Bilbo said:

Kids are playing Donna Lee when they are 5 now so chops mean nothing. It is the ideas that matter. 

Or to quote Steve Lukather, "there are fetuses that can play Eruption these days" 

[dmccombe7]

2 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

 

 

There is of course a bit of both. I was always in the 'I can never play hit me with your rythmn stick' because it is too fast for me. Turns out with a lot of playing slow and speeding up, I now can mostly play it. I am now sure I am hitting a physical limit but before that I was definately against a mental limit.

You stretched yourself for Hit Me so you can stretch a bit further and go for a Jeff Berlin type song. Now get your finger out and get some practising done. You know you can, no excuses now. 

To be honest if you managed Hit Me then there's nowt wrong with your ability so i can't see you really having a limit as such.

For me the limiting factor is whether i want to spend the time and effort on a song i will never play live. I generally only do these things for my own benefit just to push myself. The Rock bands and cover bands i play in generally don't need an exceptional bassist, they just want a good, solid, reliable bass player to hold the band together. Sometimes you simply don't have the time to learn exceptionally fast songs just for the fun of it, but i do try.

Dave

 

[ubit]

9 minutes ago, dmccombe7 said:

For me the limiting factor is whether i want to spend the time and effort on a song i will never play live. I generally only do these things for my own benefit just to push myself. The Rock bands and cover bands i play in generally don't need an exceptional bassist, they just want a good, solid, reliable bass player to hold the band together. Sometimes you simply don't have the time to learn exceptionally fast songs just for the fun of it, but i do try.

This is me just now. I work ad hoc which means I am called away at short notice and never know how long I will be away for. This plays havoc with being in a band. We have not gigged for about 7 years and I miss it like hell. I get depressed as my chances of getting a position where I will have regular hours is looking slim especially after Covid, plus I am not getting any younger and  I see opportunities slipping away. I go through stages of working stuff out but the incentive just isn't there.

Edited August 6, 2020 by ubit

[4000]

13 minutes ago, dmccombe7 said:

You stretched yourself for Hit Me so you can stretch a bit further and go for a Jeff Berlin type song. Now get your finger out and get some practising done. You know you can, no excuses now. 

To be honest if you managed Hit Me then there's nowt wrong with your ability so i can't see you really having a limit as such.

For me the limiting factor is whether i want to spend the time and effort on a song i will never play live. I generally only do these things for my own benefit just to push myself. The Rock bands and cover bands i play in generally don't need an exceptional bassist, they just want a good, solid, reliable bass player to hold the band together. Sometimes you simply don't have the time to learn exceptionally fast songs just for the fun of it, but i do try.

Dave

 

For me, I’ve played originals almost exclusively since the day I picked up a bass. There were covers in the first few gigs, but since then, maybe had a dozen at most? So quite honestly, I’ve never had much incentive to learn other people’s stuff other than out of interest. 

FWIW, I’m not convinced Jeff could play Hit Me as well as Norman. For all his chops, I don’t feel Jeff is the best groove player either (although YMMV). 

Edited August 6, 2020 by 4000

[dmccombe7]

1 hour ago, ubit said:

This is me just now. I work ad hoc which means I am called away at short notice and never know how long I will be away for. This plays havoc with being in a band. We have not gigged for about 7 years and I miss it like hell. I get depressed as my chances of getting a position where I will have regular hours is looking slim especially after Covid, plus I am not getting any younger and  I see opportunities slipping away. I go through stages of working stuff out but the incentive just isn't there.

I did that for about 15yrs and got back into it when i turned 50 (now 60) I decided that being in a band was a form of stress relief for me and it was going to take priority over work for a change. Having been picked up for stress at my work medical i was put on a stress consultant therapist type thing. Worked a treat until you fall back into same old trap after about a year. My work couldn't argue with me now tho as i just told my bosses it was my way of dealing with stress of the job and it was important to me to ignore calls. Happy days long gone now since retiring LOL

 

[dmccombe7]

1 hour ago, 4000 said:

For me, I’ve played originals almost exclusively since the day I picked up a bass. There were covers in the first few gigs, but since then, maybe had a dozen at most? So quite honestly, I’ve never had much incentive to learn other people’s stuff other than out of interest. 

FWIW, I’m not convinced Jeff could play Hit Me as well as Norman. For all his chops, I don’t feel Jeff is the best groove player either (although YMMV). 

i use Jeff Berlin as an example mainly because i like his style and most bass players will have heard of him, usually thru BC. 

I understand the feel thing as i struggle with Reggae music as i just don't have the feel and Hit Me was more about the feel for me too. That's what took me longest.

I've played mostly rock / prog covers over the years with occasional stints at originals Prog but i found the originals bands i was involved with simply didn't have the drive or push to get out and gig with the songs. Recent yrs all they wanted to do was record loads of songs. I don't see the point of just recording, its just not me. I'm happy to record songs and then get them out to a live audience. Its more fun for me that way.

Now i mostly enjoy doing covers or tribute band material. Think it took me all these years to realise its where i'm happiest. 

I would still like to get a Prog covers band on the go but doubt that's gonna happen now at my age but i still dream of it a lot. 

Dave

Edited August 6, 2020 by dmccombe7

[Woodinblack]

2 minutes ago, dmccombe7 said:

i use Jeff Berlin as an example mainly because i like his style and most bass players will have heard of him, usually thru BC.

Just for reference, I have no idea who Jeff Berlin is, but I assume he is someone who can play quite fast!

 

[dmccombe7]

8 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

Just for reference, I have no idea who Jeff Berlin is, but I assume he is someone who can play quite fast!

 

 

[PaulThePlug]

this thread got me picking out a bit from my whitesnake box set... some nice burpin' on the Child of Babylon...

But Walkin in the shadow of the blues is a fav...

[thebigyin]

8 hours ago, dmccombe7 said:

I usually start off by listening to the song a few times and playing along with it to get the right feel of the song. Then i take a section at a time and just work away on it. Sometimes i have to play it slower and gradually speed things up till i get it just riight.

Neil and Jack Bruce were probably my biggest influences in bass in my early days. I find Neil's bass lines come reasonably natural to me but FFYL has always been the stand out bass line for me. Its all the little fills he added that take it away from being a run of the mill line. The man is a genius in my book. The perfect rock bassist.

Dave

Totally agree

[steantval]

39 minutes ago, PaulThePlug said:

this thread got me picking out a bit from my whitesnake box set... some nice burpin' on the Child of Babylon...

But Walkin in the shadow of the blues is a fav...

We play Walking in the shadow of the Blues in our set, cracking tune.

[AndyTravis]

Thanks to this thread, I’ve spent all day listening to Whitesnake 

[Cosmo Valdemar]

28 minutes ago, AndyTravis said:

Thanks to this thread, I’ve spent all day listening to Whitesnake 

U ok hun?

[dmccombe7]

1 hour ago, PaulThePlug said:

But Walkin in the shadow of the blues is a fav...

I got asked to play that at a charity gig event and was first time i had used my fretless WAL bass in a rock song. It really suited the early Whitesnake songs.

Great song to play and again lots of wee fiddly fills you can throw in.

Dave

[Misdee]

I remember this track when it was in the charts and vividly recollect  being mightily impressed by the bass playing. Neil Murray is a superb player( stating the obvious, I know) with great taste in how he uses his ability. 

It's  wrong, however, to focus on how difficult this bass line is to learn and then play ( and for most ordinary folks, it is pretty difficult) .  Its'  real  achievement is in how difficult it was to conceive of, that is the germane point. Anyone can play Twinkle Twinkle Little Star, but it took Mozart to  invent  it.  Even though Mozart didn't actually write Twinkle Twinkle Little Star, but you know what I mean. 

[Bilbo]

I have finished (90 minutes) and have discovered something really interesting using the above isolated bass tracks. I found that about 98%of the tune was easy enough to write out but there are a few fills I couldn't hear, even slowed down by 75%. Revisiting the transcription with the isolated bass tracks reveals that the bits I couldn't hear are actually fluffed. I can't hear them because they aren't played. They are approximations, near misses, nearly but not quite fills. They are unplayable by most of us because they are were unplayed by Mr Murray (who I also rate very highly). 

 

I will post the transcription tomorrow on my website and post a link here. 

Edited August 6, 2020 by Bilbo

[AndyTravis]

1 hour ago, Cosmo Valdemar said:

U ok hun?

Well...let me tell you.

😉

[Bilbo]

Here you go, guys. Let me know if you disagree with any details and I will probably ignore you

https://bilbosbassbites.co.uk/fool-for-your-loving-whitesnake/

[dmccombe7]

13 minutes ago, Bilbo said:

Here you go, guys. Let me know if you disagree with any details and I will probably ignore you

https://bilbosbassbites.co.uk/fool-for-your-loving-whitesnake/

Cheers @Bilbo just downloaded for my files and will hopefully have a wee go today.

First glance over it and it looks very much like the original copy i had from someone on BC back in 2012.

Dave

[Dad3353]

2 hours ago, Bilbo said:

Here you go, guys...

Now let me guess... Your site stats will go soaring again over the week-end, right..? 

...

Nice, clean, transcription; Well Done. You wouldn't fancy doing the drums now, I don't suppose..? No..? Thought not. 

...

Only kiddin', I'd do 'em myself.