Is my rig as loud as it should be?

[TomWIC]

Afternoon all

This seems like a silly question and I feel a bit silly for asking it, but I'm really starting to doubt my rig's power and reliability.

I use a Peavey Tour 700 with an Ashdown ABM 410 and ABM 210 cabs. The amp puts out 700watts on that 4ohm load; the 410 is rated at 600watts and the 210 is rated at 300watts.

Now, I know wattage isn't a clear indication of actual power (from what I've read anyway) but I really do struggle sometimes to match my guitarist's volume during rehearsals (a valve Peavey 6505, 120watts, with his gain set at around 2-3). I have to push my pregain halfway and postgain to maximum to start matching the volume of his head.

The trouble is with the amp going that high, the speaker protection starts kicking in and I have to turn down in case my cabs blow (more specifically, the lower rated 210).

Now, I know valve amps are significantly louder than solid states, but should there really be that much difference between 120 watts valve and 700 watts solid state? Could there be something up with the head, something wrong with the cabs, or are they just unsuited?

Cheers

Edited October 14, 2013 by TomWIC

[Toasted]

To be honest mate, sounds like the whole band is way too loud.

Edited October 14, 2013 by Toasted

[Mr. Foxen]

You are stuck with the limitations of the 2x10, both those cabs are the same impedance so power is split 50/50. You need to use two cabs the same it will make less issue. As it is, cut the low eq, crank the mids, 5150 users nearly always mid scoop all to hell because they want to be a bass and a snare drum at once. Loads of mids, and play high and widdly until he starts playing the guitar parts.

[Wooks79]

My first head, a Peavey firebass 700, used to have a problem with the speaker protection kicking in and cutting the whole thing out.

Could have just been the bands volumes then as well though to be honest, or could be a fault with your speaker protection?

[TomWIC]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1381754313' post='2243136']
You are stuck with the limitations of the 2x10, both those cabs are the same impedance so power is split 50/50. You need to use two cabs the same it will make less issue. As it is, cut the low eq, crank the mids, 5150 users nearly always mid scoop all to hell because they want to be a bass and a snare drum at once. Loads of mids, and play high and widdly until he starts playing the guitar parts.
[/quote]

This is what I thought may be happening, thanks. Two 410s is a bit much to be carrying around, so I might have to rethink my cab situation. Cheers.

[Phil Starr]

Power is power but of course not volume. Guitar speakers are generally more efficient at converting electricity into sound because they don't need long voice coils. Add into that the fact that our ears are much better at hearing sounds in the 300-3000hz range of the human voice and coincidentally electric guitar and you have the reason you can't hear so well. Also the guitar speaker sends out a concentrated cone of sound which usually points at the bassist and the vocal mics and misses the guitarist entirely whereas the bass radiates evenly into the room at the lowest frequencies.

You shouldn't be worried about the guitarist other than to expect him to be a good band member and turn down. You only need to match the drums. The poor drummer doesn't have a volume control that goes to 11. If you match the drums than no-one should be louder than the pair of you.

Get a stand for the guitarist to point his cab at his ears, he will probably have no idea how he actually sounds and 120w is too loud for most gigs never mind practice.

Your own rig is overkill tbh but you seem to know where the volume control is, show your guitarist where to find his.

[badboy1984]

I think the overall band volume and EQ need adjusting. Your EQ and the guitar EQ may need adjusting. Sounds like both you and the guitarist fighting for volume. Maybe his bass EQ is crack up and you wanted that low bass tone and it ends up the guitar guy drown your volume.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='TomWIC' timestamp='1381753714' post='2243125']a solid state Peavey 6505
[/quote]

Just noticed this, what?

[Phil Starr]

Just so you know, your rig is capable of producing 128dB @ 1m and will be averaging maybe 110dB if you are consistently running it into clipping. If your guitarist is operating this loud too you have over 130dB peaks and 113db in the room. One hour of sound at this level will cause irreversible damage to your hearing.

[discreet]

What on Earth is your guitarist doing using a 120W amp [i]at rehearsal[/i]? That is major overkill. Even playing the biggest stadia in the world, a guitarist only needs a good 30W amp [i]at the very most[/i]. He's way too bloody loud, that's your problem!

Edit: And you are all using ear protection at all times, aren't you?

Edited October 14, 2013 by discreet

[paulpirie8]

Can't seem to upload a photo, but I used to use the Tour 700 with an ABM410 and my guitarist used a 6505 though a Marsall 4x12. I never had any problem matching him for volume. I never even strayed past the halfway point on my amp for the 2 years or so I used this rig and that was about 500w at 8ohms IIRC.

I can only suggest that the 4x10/2x10 combo may be inefficient. Maybe you should try using just the 4x10 for a rehearsal and see if that helps?

Paul

Edited October 14, 2013 by paulpirie8

[Mr. Foxen]

4x10 alone, but on top of the unplugged 2x10 (or something taller if you have it) and not using any low end boost.

Also if the guitarist says the 5150 sounds rubbish not loud, point out being louder jsut sounds like louder rubbish, and his ears shutting down from SPL isn't helping.

[The Dark Lord]

[quote name='Toasted' timestamp='1381754076' post='2243132']
To be honest mate, sounds like the whole ba[color=#ff0000]n[/color]d is way too loud.
[/quote]

Word.

Or are you playing to massive audiences on huuuuge stages? Even still, all of that's gonna spill out front and mess with the FOH mix.

[TomWIC]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1381755299' post='2243153']
Just noticed this, what?
[/quote]

This is me being half asleep, it is of course valve.

[quote name='paulpirie8' timestamp='1381755685' post='2243163']
Can't seem to upload a photo, but I used to use the Tour 700 with an ABM410 and my guitarist used a 6505 though a Marsall 4x12. I never had any problem matching him for volume. I never even strayed past the halfway point on my amp for the 2 years or so I used this rig and that was about 500w at 8ohms IIRC.

I can only suggest that the 4x10/2x10 combo may be inefficient. Maybe you should try using just the 4x10 for a rehearsal and see if that helps?

Paul
[/quote]

I remember, you sold me the head we're rehearsing tonight, so I'll try just the 410. Ta.

[TomWIC]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1381756230' post='2243175']
4x10 alone, but on top of the unplugged 2x10 (or something taller if you have it) and not using any low end boost.
[/quote]

I'll try this as well, thanks.

[stingrayPete1977]

I used the tour heads and the fire bass is it? At the practise rooms in Walsall, they were paired to matching 8x10 cabs yet had a pathetic output, anyone who hadn't tried new gear for a while might have a shock with a modern 2x12 and a 200 watt head!

[Lozz196]

Agree with all the above really, if you`re having to push your amp that much and it can`t be heard, your guitarist needs to come down. With that amp and a 410 on its own you should have no trouble being easily heard in the mix.

I think you and said guitarist need to plot the bands sound together. Get guitar to drop some lows, and some gain, and some reverb. From there, work with your bass to get where you want to be. Bass/gain/reverb are our enemy on guitar amps.

Re the guitar, this is a regular problem - guitar amps sound fantastic some 30 - 50 feet away, but not particularly good up close. So many guitarists turn up to make it sound better. Start off by getting him to go and stand as far away from his amp whilst you and the drummer get your levels. Then tell him to start playing at his regular volume - he should then realise he`s way too loud.

[JTUK]

I think the 210 is the problem.... I think you'd be able to push the 600w cab harder if you didn't have the 210 in the loop.
In this case, running into 4 ohms isn't helping, so run hard into 8 with the single cab.
With 700 on tap..??? asuming ratings are good... you might capable of 500/8 and if that isn't enough in a small venue
then I'd be thinking the gtr is the source of the issue.

Single gtr bands seem to have gtrs who think they need to fill everything and have a rig to proove it.

[EBS_freak]

The amp is probably your no 1 suspect. Those things are notoriously quiet despite their generous power rating. Remember volume measured in dbs not watts.

Whole rehearsal sounds like a nightmare situation tbh.

[warwickhunt]

Quick question; if you unplug and take the 2x10 out of the equation is your 'perceived' volume the same/less/more? I only ask as I have personal experience of folks borrowing or using speaker cables that are wired out of phase with each other, when you have a pair of cables/cabs out of phase your perceived volume from a pair of cabs is less than when using just one cab. Just a thought, as IMHO Peavey gear is pretty good at pumping out volume and I'd be surprised if gear in good nick would struggle as you describe!

[JapanAxe]

If you are stressing a 700W rig in a rehearsal, you are all playing too darned loud.

(1) All turn down.
(2) Set up your rehearsal space so that you line up with the side of (but are not right next to) your guitarist's amp, and facing your bass rig on the opposite side of the room - that way you can hear yourself properly, but aren't taking the full force from the guitarist.
(3) All turn down some more.

[gjones]

[quote name='Toasted' timestamp='1381754076' post='2243132']
To be honest mate, sounds like the whole band is way too loud.
[/quote]

Turn the bass on your amp down as low frequencies suck up a lot of power. And make sure the guitarist has his amp at head height and pointed right at him. As others have already said, you only need to be as loud as the drums. If the guitarist is louder than that he needs to turn down.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1381772583' post='2243556']
The amp is probably your no 1 suspect. Those things are notoriously quiet despite their generous power rating. Remember volume measured in dbs not watts.
[/quote]

The problem is with cabs, and user with those. Those amps can put out far more lows than cabs can cope with, giving the farting out and DDT light, and if its like the firebass, has various ways of scooping mids, like the contour control that is scooping them in the middle of its travel, so centring everything doesn't help. Consequently they eat cabs without appearing very loud if you don't look after the EQ.

[Marvin]

I just hope the OP is wearing earplugs.

I'm quite thankful at the moment that the bands I'm with all control their volume. So much so that even when I've forgotten my earplugs it's not been a problem.

Turn it down

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1381772583' post='2243556']
The amp is probably your no 1 suspect. Those things are notoriously quiet despite their generous power rating. Remember volume measured in dbs not watts.

Whole rehearsal sounds like a nightmare situation tbh.
[/quote]
Have you used the ones at Walsall?, my shuttle 3.0 and 1x12 is more use!