Pictures versus sounds

[Annoying Twit]

Is anyone else disappointed that ebay, gumtree, and other listings don't give links to recordings of the bass being sold. If a bass being sold is a generic bass, then there will be audio reviews. Possibly even by Ed Friedland or another respected reviewer. But, if the bass has been customised, or is obscure, there may not be. E.g. to include a current ebay link so that I don't get slapped around the head by a moderator , this IMHO interesting instrument:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HiGuitarsUK-Handcrafted-Electric-Piccolo-Bass-Guitar-NEW-DAddario-Strings-/300991104257?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV&hash=item461477c501

A quick look on the manufacturer's site doesn't immediately reveal a 'media' or 'sounds' link, and their youtube page seems to only have examples of their dulcimers.

So, what does their piccolo bass sound like? I've got absolutely no idea. I'm not going to be buying it, but I have seen things that I would be interested in that I have no idea how they sound. On the marketplace here I can and do ask if there are recordings of the bass being offered. I've seen youtube clips where someone demonstrates a bass that is for sale somewhere. But that's the exception rather than the rule.

But there are often loads of pictures showing the instruments. I want to see what a bass looks like as much as the next person. And if it's a Squier Classic Vibe Jazz bass, then the pictures are all I need so that I can check the condition. But, in some cases, without sound clips I wonder if many sellers are missing out on potential buyers.

[LukeFRC]

But my recording isn't really going to show you the sound of the bass - also my ability to record and also how I play. Some guys on here can make bad basses sound very very very good (and me the opposite).

[BigRedX]

No. Not in the slightest.

IMO even after allowing for the audio mangling done by YouTube or whatever other hosting service has applied to your files, all these clips will show is what the bass sounds like when played by the current owner through their rig and recorded using whatever equipment they have and then who knows what post-recording processing will have been applied.

Even a YouTube video proves nothing. If I was a less than scrupulous seller I could record the audio using my best sounding bass and then mime along on the video on whatever PoS I was trying to flog. No-one could ever conclusively prove that it wasn't possible for me to get the bass in the video to sound like the recording.

Interestingly it was Ed Friedland who made me realise the futility of relying on clip of other people playing basses as a guide to buying something for myself and expecting it to sound the same. I've owned several basses that Ed has demo'd (most notably the Lightwave Saber) and when I play them they sound nothing like his recordings. TBH I would have never bought the Lightwave if I'd heard his demo first because he made it sound pretty much like every other bass he tests and therefore I would't have discovered the unique sounds that I was able to get out of it.

IMO the only sure way of knowing whether a bass will suit you sound-wise is to play it yourself through your rig and preferably in the context of your current musical project.

[discreet]

^ ^ This. And even if all else is equal, you still won't be able to judge the bass properly if you're not listening to the recording on a high-quality full-bandwidth monitoring system. Listening through typical computer speakers (for example) will tell you nothing.

Edited October 16, 2013 by discreet

[Roger2611]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1381908866' post='2245134']
No. Not in the slightest.

IMO even after allowing for the audio mangling done by YouTube or whatever other hosting service has applied to your files, all these clips will show is what the bass sounds like when played by the current owner through their rig and recorded using whatever equipment they have and then who knows what post-recording processing will have been applied.

Even a YouTube video proves nothing. If I was a less than scrupulous seller I could record the audio using my best sounding bass and then mime along on the video on whatever PoS I was trying to flog. No-one could ever conclusively prove that it wasn't possible for me to get the bass in the video to sound like the recording.

Interestingly it was Ed Friedland who made me realise the futility of relying on clip of other people playing basses as a guide to buying something for myself and expecting it to sound the same. I've owned several basses that Ed has demo'd (most notably the Lightwave Saber) and when I play them they sound nothing like his recordings. TBH I would have never bought the Lightwave if I'd heard his demo first because he made it sound pretty much like every other bass he tests and therefore I would't have discovered the unique sounds that I was able to get out of it.

IMO the only sure way of knowing whether a bass will suit you sound-wise is to play it yourself through your rig and preferably in the context of your current musical project.
[/quote]

What he said

[Annoying Twit]

I've read and thought about the opinions here. I'm not sure I'm convinced that recordings of a bass are such a bad idea. I feel that I can understand something of a basses sound from a naked uneq'd DI'd recording.

It is true that a seller can fake a basses sound, but I wonder how often that would happen and whether it's a significant concern. If the bass was bought on ebay, and the sound turned out to be very different when DI'd, then that would I would think justify a 'significantly not as described' dispute. Which, I would expect the buyer to win as even without two recordings to show to ebay customer services, buyers tend to win SNAD disputes in any case. Certainly the level of evidence required to win SNAD is much less than any sort of proof.

In the case of cash on collection, gumtree, or here, then the bass can be checked when it is collected.

It is possible for a seller to fake the sound of a bass, but it's also possible for them to put pictures of a different bass up on ebay. Or to put up generic pictures and lie through their teeth concerning the condition. But it doesn't happen very often. (I think some other categories tend to have a higher number of dodgy sellers).

[Happy Jack]

I can see the point you're making, but I have to agree with BRX on this one.

The only way you can have any real idea what a bass will sound like in your hands, playing your sort of basslines through your rig, is to do exactly that ... have it in your hands.

I'm lucky enough to have a Matamp head running through a Barefaced 69er. Several Basschatters have played several basses through this, and all have commented that it makes any bass sound better.

I could record a £79 Westfield P-bass through this rig and, with the right settings (and LaBella flats, natch), get it to sound like a 60's Precision.

If you then plugged it through a beat-up Peavey combo ... well, who knows?

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Annoying Twit' timestamp='1381999360' post='2246432']
I've read and thought about the opinions here. I'm not sure I'm convinced that recordings of a bass are such a bad idea. I feel that I can understand something of a basses sound from a naked uneq'd DI'd recording.

It is true that a seller can fake a basses sound, but I wonder how often that would happen and whether it's a significant concern. If the bass was bought on ebay, and the sound turned out to be very different when DI'd, then that would I would think justify a 'significantly not as described' dispute. Which, I would expect the buyer to win as even without two recordings to show to ebay customer services, buyers tend to win SNAD disputes in any case. Certainly the level of evidence required to win SNAD is much less than any sort of proof.
[/quote]

And that is exactly why as a seller I would never provide sound clips. It's bad enough having every sale potentially rejected on the basis that some of the micro-blemishes in the finish didn't show up adequately in your photographs, but add in sound which is entirely subjective and is in good part down to the ability of the player and it's a nightmare waiting to happen.

IMO at least half the sound of an electric bass is down to the amplification used (it is an [b]ELECTRIC[/b] bass after all). Most basses DI'd with no EQ or other processing sound boring and bland to my ears so sound clips done like that would put me off all of them. Like Happy Jack I have a rig that makes the majority of basses I've heard through sound great, and like Happy Jack's it has cost me quite a bit in time and money to get right. I don't want to penalised because the buyer only has something dull sounding and consequently when they play the bass through it they get a correspondingly dull sound.

And finally what sounds good in isolation doesn't necessarily work in a band setting. For me the only way to know if a bass is for me is to try it for several weeks playing it with my band. Only then will I know if everything is right for the way I want it to sound.

[Annoying Twit]

In your example, you mention one p-bass sounding like another p-bass. Presumably instruments with similar pickups in similar positions on a bass with a similar scale. I can see that sound samples wouldn't be of use to distinguish between fairly similar instruments. However, for someone such as myself who recently didn't sufficiently deeply understand exactly what sort of sound I'm going to get out of an ash body with a 34" scale, and two active humbuckers nearish to the bridge, or doesnt know whether they should be getting a precision or a jazz (as I was way back when - I was advised to visit the Lakland site, which was very useful), then the sound samples are more useful. Part of the reason I hacked my Shine bass around in a he-who-shall-not-be-named manner. I wanted to see what changes to the sound happened when I did it. The most interesting part of that experiment was how much the sound remained the same with vastly different pickups. Pickup position, I guess.

Perhaps my yearning for sound samples for basses, and other people's lack of interest in these, just says that they know more than me about what different types of basses sound like.

@BigRedX. If I play the different basses I have through different systems, amps, amp simulation, etc., I notice that the bass, playing style, pickup distance, and settings seem to make more difference than the method used to amplify sound. Perhaps this is because I prefer a clean sound. If I push whatever into distortion and/or add effects, then the basses become a minor part of the equation. I'm wondering if I should get a proper graphic EQ pedal rather than just use things with three band EQ, and experiment more. Also, if I DI my Cimar, I don't think it sounds boring and bland at all. And my Shine had a particularly character that I didn't like, which seemed to show through whatever I threw at it unless it was EQ'd down to a dub bass.

I'm not posting this to argue that I'm right. After all, ebay ads etc. are aimed at the bass community, and it looks very much that the bass community don't want sound clips. But that makes me wonder why there are so many youtube videos where people demonstrate the sounds that a bass makes.

Edited October 17, 2013 by Annoying Twit

[Happy Jack]

Not looking to drag out into the open the whole [i]where-does-tone-come-from [/i]debate again, but the most illuminating bass I've ever owned was a Westone Rail, the one with the single sliding pickup.

I would never have believed it possible for one bass to have so many completely different tones, without changing any part of the controls, electronics, or signal chain, and all achieved simply by sliding the pickup a couple of centimetres, sometimes more like a couple of millimetres.

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1382014169' post='2246678']
Not looking to drag out into the open the whole [i]where-does-tone-come-from [/i]debate again, but the most illuminating bass I've ever owned was a Westone Rail, the one with the single sliding pickup.

I would never have believed it possible for one bass to have so many completely different tones, without changing any part of the controls, electronics, or signal chain, and all achieved simply by sliding the pickup a couple of centimetres, sometimes more like a couple of millimetres.
[/quote]

I'm wondering if this has something to do with the fact that there is a standing wave on the string, and a pickup in a different location is sampling the standing wave from a different location.


PS: When I said 'pickup distance' in my previous post, I meant pickup distance vertically from the strings, not horizontally from the end of the neck or bridge.