What new high-quality PA system for pub band?

[The Dark Lord]

[size=4]I'm on the horns of a dilemma.[/size]

[font=Helvetica][size=2][size=4]We want a compact PA system for our three piece pub rock / pop band.[/size][/size][/font]

[font=Helvetica][size=2][size=4]The band consists of two affluent business owners and a professional drummer. We have the money to buy whatever we want. The three main criteria are portability, sound quality and enough volume.[/size][/size][/font]

[font=Helvetica][size=2][size=4]For the last couple of years, we have been using 2 x Roland SA-300s as a stereo PA. We use it for vocals only. Very good sound and plenty powerful for the small to medium pub scene. Have been using 3 x Behringer B205D monitors of late (which are very good).[/size][/size][/font]

[size=2][size=4][font="Helvetica"]However, the Rolands in their flight cases are bulky and heavy.[/font] [/size][/size][font=Helvetica]Time for hi-tech and portability.[/font]

[font=Helvetica][size=2][size=4]We have purchased a Bose L1 Model II cylindrical column with the big B2 bass bin and the T1 Tonematch system. This goes [i]behind[/i] the band and has a superb sound. But, even though Bose say it doesn’t – it feeds back at volume. It’s great for our quieter semi-acoustic gigs. Unbelievably easy to transport and set up. Fantastic sound quality – and our vocals improve as it sits behind us and we hear what the audience hear.[/size][/size][/font]

[font=Helvetica][size=2][size=4]We have considered getting a second one of these but we’re not 100 % convinced that just adding a second will give us enough power. I have provoked a technical discussion on the Bose L1 forum which has got me more confused. Apparently, according the main technical guru on there, we will only add 3dB of gain before feedback by adding a second unit.[/size][/size][/font]

[font=Helvetica][size=2][size=4]So, do we risk spending another £2,800 on the prospect of maybe having enough vocal volume?[/size][/size][/font]
[font=Helvetica][size=2][size=4]Or, does someone have a suggestion? Great quality sound, very portable, loud enough for pub gigs up to about 300 people, money no object.[/size][/size][/font]

[font=Helvetica][size=2][size=4]I’m all ears.[/size][/size][/font]

[tonybassplayer]

I know that this doesn't quite answer the question but have you considered a decent quality normal PA and giving a 4th person ( roadie, light tech, sound man ) a cut of the gig money so you dont have the lifting etc to do ?

[The Dark Lord]

[quote name='tonybassplayer' timestamp='1382091400' post='2247715']
I know that this doesn't quite answer the question but have you considered a decent quality normal PA and giving a 4th person ( roadie, light tech, sound man ) a cut of the gig money so you dont have the lifting etc to do ?
[/quote]

I know what you're saying. That would be an answer. But we like being a threesome. Less complicated communication and decision-making process.

[EBS_freak]

Bose. No, no, no. Cut your losses and invest in traditional PA. The Bose is exceptionally good for quieter acoustic setups but you'll never get the volume and control you'll need for a pub band. You'll spend more time fighting feedback than playing. Been there in a previous band. Nothing but headaches.

Sadly, you won't get portable if you want to move some air - laws of physics. You can get light though. A bunch of people will no doubt chime in with what you can use... but in short, get a desk, some powered speakers... and if you can afford it, 31 band eq for every output (e.g. l/r front plus any monitors) to tune your PA to the room and fight your feedback.

Good luck.

If you are looking to spend money... Just as idea, you could get an Allen Heath QU16 with a pair of DB Opera 605s that would kick sh1t out of your Bose for less than 2800.

Get a couple of subs and you got a serious PA and you could ditch your bass amp... or at least not rely on it for front of house. Mic up your bass and snare and your band is suddenly sounding a hell of a lot better than it is now.

Edited October 18, 2013 by EBS_freak

[6v6]

I'd be looking at the Mackie DLM series, or the QSC powered speakers.

[url="http://www.mackie.com/products/dlmseries/lineup/"]http://www.mackie.com/products/dlmseries/lineup/[/url]

[url="http://www.qscaudio.com/products/speakers/k_series/k_series_k10.php"]http://www.qscaudio.com/products/speakers/k_series/k_series_k10.php[/url]

[crez5150]

Plus sticking the PA Behind the Band is not going to help.......

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='crez5150' timestamp='1382093269' post='2247757']
Plus sticking the PA Behind the Band is not going to help.......
[/quote]

This is true... yet Bose seem to say it will cope with it.

Yeah right. Even placing it infront of us, it was less than impressive

Edited October 24, 2013 by EBS_freak

[JapanAxe]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1382092521' post='2247744']
Bose. No, no, no. Cut your losses and invest in traditional PA. The Bose is exceptionally good for quieter acoustic setups but you'll never get the volume and control you'll need for a pub band.
[/quote]

I use a Bose L1 setup for my pop and country covers trios and although it is great in those applications, I suspect EBS_freak is right when it comes to the higher volumes and confined spaces of a pub gig. In fact thinking about it, I have actually used the Bose on 2 gigs in pubs and found we were limited on volume in the smaller rooms, whereas village halls and social clubs never give us a problem.

EDIT: I have found the best placement for the Bose is to the side of the stage, pointing at the diagonally opposite corner of the room.

Edited October 18, 2013 by JapanAxe

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='6v6' timestamp='1382093153' post='2247754']
I'd be looking at the Mackie DLM series, or the QSC powered speakers.

[url="http://www.mackie.com/products/dlmseries/lineup/"]http://www.mackie.co...mseries/lineup/[/url]

[url="http://www.qscaudio.com/products/speakers/k_series/k_series_k10.php"]http://www.qscaudio...._series_k10.php[/url]
[/quote]

To be honest, this whole thread will likely end up in a load of people putting down a load of random PA cabs... of which there are loads... but in short, anything is going to kick those Bose systems for a pub band.

So in short. Bose. Acoustic yes. Pub band no.

[crez5150]

yep ditch the Bose..... ok if you are an acoustic act but it's never gonna work well in a band scenario......

We've just gone down the Dynacord route......

[The Dark Lord]

[quote name='6v6' timestamp='1382093153' post='2247754']
I'd be looking at the Mackie DLM series, or the QSC powered speakers.

[url="http://www.mackie.com/products/dlmseries/lineup/"]http://www.mackie.co...mseries/lineup/[/url]

[url="http://www.qscaudio.com/products/speakers/k_series/k_series_k10.php"]http://www.qscaudio...._series_k10.php[/url]
[/quote]

This is a good shout. I have considered keeping the Bose L1 plus its sub and using it behind the band - plus adding two Mackie DLM12 units on speaker stands as front of house.

That would give us portability, welly, and great monitoring and versatility as we could decide which bits to take for which gig depending on the size of the room and required volume level.

Also quote a cheap extra cash option at only £1500 or so as an addition.

[crez5150]

Have you listened to the DLM12 yet....?? They're pretty dire.....

[chris_b]

I'd start with the Dynacord Powermate 1000-3 ( http://dynacord.com/en/products/7/5/73/251_pm1000-3.html ) and work out how many speakers and which ones from there.

[Adrenochrome]

We're now using Mackie active tops (not the DLM ones) and they sound the mutts nuts. We've also got active bottoms as well, but I honestly can't remember which brand, sorry.

[alexclaber]

This is very much the niche we've been wanting to fill with our first PA cabs but we haven't had time to get any to market what with all the bass cab stuff. I strongly suspect that a modern lightweight power amp with DSP driving two Big Baby 2s could outperform many top + sub rigs at a fraction of the size and weight. DSP could be used for room space correction as well as EQ and crossing over to an optional sub for bigger/outdoor gigs. Anyone local want to test such a rig once we have some time?

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1382093740' post='2247779']
This is a good shout. I have considered keeping the Bose L1 plus its sub and using it behind the band - plus adding two Mackie DLM12 units on speaker stands as front of house.
[/quote]

You do realise that PAs behind the band is a really bad idea? The onset of feedback through vocal mics for starters is going to be pretty quick, even at minimal volumes.

Get rid of the idea that Bose have sold you of having them next to you on stage. It just doesn't work at the volumes you will be trying to achieve.

Edited October 18, 2013 by EBS_freak

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='Adrenochrome' timestamp='1382094138' post='2247789']
We're now using Mackie active tops (not the DLM ones) and they sound the mutts nuts. We've also got active bottoms as well, but I honestly can't remember which brand, sorry.
[/quote]

This is where the thread is going to break down. It depends on the individuals definition of mutts nuts.

[6v6]

[quote name='crez5150' timestamp='1382093837' post='2247782']
Have you listened to the DLM12 yet....?? They're pretty dire.....
[/quote]

No, but we've been using Mackie SRM450's for years and they are excellent IMO, if a bit heavy. I'd be very surprised if anything Mackie makes is "dire", but perhaps folks can chime in with first-hand experiences.

I have heard QSC K10's and they sounded excellent.

[crez5150]

[quote name='6v6' timestamp='1382096020' post='2247827']
No, but we've been using Mackie SRM450's for years and they are excellent IMO, if a bit heavy. I'd be very surprised if anything Mackie makes is "dire", but perhaps folks can chime in with first-hand experiences.

I have heard QSC K10's and they sounded excellent.
[/quote]

The older srm450 MK1's were pretty good.... but the later versions were a bit.... meh! If it were my money.... RCF, EV, Dynacord,

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1382094191' post='2247790']
This is very much the niche we've been wanting to fill with our first PA cabs but we haven't had time to get any to market what with all the bass cab stuff. I strongly suspect that a modern lightweight power amp with DSP driving two Big Baby 2s could outperform many top + sub rigs at a fraction of the size and weight. DSP could be used for room space correction as well as EQ and crossing over to an optional sub for bigger/outdoor gigs. Anyone local want to test such a rig once we have some time?
[/quote]

Sounds good - but the portability is lost with having seperate poweramps. Ideally you want your power amp in the desk or in the cabs. Guys looking for portability don't want the added baggage of having a seperate poweramp. Just my humble of course...

[xgsjx]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1382095594' post='2247822']
This is where the thread is going to break down. It depends on the individuals definition of mutts nuts.
[/quote]
I would have thought they would be found between the hind legs of a male dog?

[The Dark Lord]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1382095594' post='2247822']
This is where the thread is going to break down. It depends on the individuals definition of mutts nuts.
[/quote]

The thread isn't breaking down. I'm seeing lots of different opinions and helpful suggestions thank you very much!

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='6v6' timestamp='1382096020' post='2247827']
No, but we've been using Mackie SRM450's for years and they are excellent IMO, if a bit heavy. I'd be very surprised if anything Mackie makes is "dire", but perhaps folks can chime in with first-hand experiences.

I have heard QSC K10's and they sounded excellent.
[/quote]

SRM450 MK1s were ok. MK2 not so. The trouble with the 450s to my ears is that they have a overly harsh top end... even worse on the Mk2s where they changed the amp.

I wouldn't go as far as dire... but there are a lot better out there... but not necessarily as well stocked at dealers because Mackie has developed a certain market presence.

I remember as kids people kooing over Technics. The opinion was that Techincs is top end hifi but in reality, there was a hell of a lot better out there at a similar price... it's just that Technics appeared in pretty much every electronics shop, catalogue, etc... whereas the competition didn't.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1382096386' post='2247836']
I would have thought they would be found between the hind legs of a male dog?
[/quote]

Bum bum! Ha ha

[The Dark Lord]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1382094191' post='2247790']
This is very much the niche we've been wanting to fill with our first PA cabs but we haven't had time to get any to market what with all the bass cab stuff. I strongly suspect that a modern lightweight power amp with DSP driving two Big Baby 2s could outperform many top + sub rigs at a fraction of the size and weight. DSP could be used for room space correction as well as EQ and crossing over to an optional sub for bigger/outdoor gigs. Anyone local want to test such a rig once we have some time?
[/quote]

Well, I'm only just west of Worthing Alex - and I am already a Barefaced user - so would love to do such a test. Can do it on a live band environment too.

Edited October 18, 2013 by The Dark Lord