What new high-quality PA system for pub band?

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1382096463' post='2247838']
The thread isn't breaking down. I'm seeing lots of different opinions and helpful suggestions thank you very much!
[/quote]

Cool - it's not at the moment, but these thread usually end up in people pasting up what they use rather than posts from guys who've used a whole load of PA and compare the strengths and weaknesses.

PA is expensive... so much consideration should be taken into account as to what you need.

My recommendation for the AH desk is that it will basically give you everything you need in one package. Mixing, outboard, eqing, many monitoring options... and is going to give you everything you need to get a great sound in the most difficult of rooms.

Speakers are defo worth auditioning - speakers, as you probably aware, have their own sound signature and some to the extent that you'll never be able to get to your liking. As mentioned above, I don't like the top end of the 450s. Many people may just accept this, know no better, or actually like the top end. That's the thing. Everybody hears different. I certainly would be going out trying out cabs at volume before dropping any further money.

[brensabre79]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1382094191' post='2247790']
This is very much the niche we've been wanting to fill with our first PA cabs but we haven't had time to get any to market what with all the bass cab stuff. I strongly suspect that a modern lightweight power amp with DSP driving two Big Baby 2s could outperform many top + sub rigs at a fraction of the size and weight. DSP could be used for room space correction as well as EQ and crossing over to an optional sub for bigger/outdoor gigs. Anyone local want to test such a rig once we have some time?
[/quote]
Another local happy to test Alex, Barefaced user, play in a function band. Already have lightweight Class D Amp, but no DSP, using outboard GEQ and Mixer. Currently with VERY heavy Yamaha PA speakers - I always thought of using a couple of Midget Ts as tops actually, don't have the budget at the moment...

[EBS_freak]

[indent=1]Wait a minute... is this yet another....[/indent]

[indent=1]Yes.... I think it is...[/indent]

[indent=1][/indent]

[mrtcat]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1382096375' post='2247834']


Sounds good - but the portability is lost with having seperate poweramps. Ideally you want your power amp in the desk or in the cabs. Guys looking for portability don't want the added baggage of having a seperate poweramp. Just my humble of course...
[/quote]

I don't really agree as new lightweight power amps can sit in a rack along with Eq and crossover. A 4u rack could potentially hold all and with the right subs and tops you will destroy most powered stuff. I'd imagine that the barefaced option would be very light and compact and extremely well engineered. I have built a BFM rig with 1 sub and two tops for a band in Northampton that they transport in a car which is not only super light and easy to rig up it also sounds beautiful. They have since ordered three more subs so they can use the same rig for outdoor gigs next summer. That would be overkill for pubs of course but it just shows the flexibility it would give.

[6v6]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1382096915' post='2247858']
Cool - it's not at the moment, but these thread usually end up in people pasting up what they use rather than posts from guys who've used a whole load of PA and compare the strengths and weaknesses.
[/quote]

Well I'd argue first hand experiences from folks who have used stuff, and found it works well in the OP's scenario (pub bands, which I guess many of us are in), is valuable.

FWIW, we've used MK1 SRM's for 8 years and many (loud-ish blues/rock) pub gigs, and they have been 100% reliable and sound pretty good to me. I'm very aware there are better options if you're fortunate enough to have an unlimited budget.

Claiming the thread is "breaking down" just because people make suggestions for the OP to investigate, and demo/evaluate for their use-case isn't all that helpful IMO.

How many folks on here have first hand experience of a "whole load" of high end PA to objectively compare anyway?

Anyway, as others have mentioned, setting up the PA behind the band is just wrong, so dropping another £3k won't solve the problem - IMHO a couple of good powered speakers out front, with two or three small powered wedges on the stage, combined with a decent small mixer is all you need for a 3 piece pub rock band. I'll refrain from making any more suggestions on brand or model

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='mrtcat' timestamp='1382100795' post='2247955']
I don't really agree as new lightweight power amps can sit in a rack along with Eq and crossover. A 4u rack could potentially hold all and with the right subs and tops you will destroy most powered stuff. I'd imagine that the barefaced option would be very light and compact and extremely well engineered. I have built a BFM rig with 1 sub and two tops for a band in Northampton that they transport in a car which is not only super light and easy to rig up it also sounds beautiful. They have since ordered three more subs so they can use the same rig for outdoor gigs next summer. That would be overkill for pubs of course but it just shows the flexibility it would give.
[/quote]

Thats the point. It's another box to carry around... and if you want small and portable doing pub gigs, don't you want to have it all in one box.

Now if I was doing a large scale setup, I'd probably choose to use a load of single poweramps running into passive cabs, with a whole load of processing. But let's keep things in reality here. It's a pub band. He wants a small, portable rig. I reckon that a 2 powered tops, 2 powered subs (with built in crossover), 2 powered monitors, beats 6 passive cabs which would require 3 poweramps and some sort of crossover (e.g. on desk or external unit).


If you want to expand that latter, it's more cabs, more amps. If you expand the futher, just another XLR into another powered cab. Done.

It's pubs. Lets keep things simple eh?

Edited October 18, 2013 by EBS_freak

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='6v6' timestamp='1382100961' post='2247960']
Well I'd argue first hand experiences from folks who have used stuff, and found it works well in the OP's scenario (pub bands, which I guess many of us are in), is valuable.

FWIW, we've used MK1 SRM's for 8 years and many (loud-ish blues/rock) pub gigs, and they have been 100% reliable and sound pretty good to me. I'm very aware there are better options if you're fortunate enough to have an unlimited budget.

Claiming the thread is "breaking down" just because people make suggestions for the OP to investigate, and demo/evaluate for their use-case isn't all that helpful IMO.

How many folks on here have first hand experience of a "whole load" of high end PA to objectively compare anyway?

[/quote]

Again, I tried to say this earlier - sound is subjective. You like the sound signature of your SRM450s. That's cool. I don't. But that's why we are all different. I would wager your 100% reliability statement wouldn't stand if you were using the Mk2s for example. And it's not all about "high end" there are loads of great options around (and less) the price of the SRM450s. To be honest, gear is generally good now.. there isn't necessarily "better", just "different".

I didn't say that the thread is breaking down. I was merely suggesting that the thread could end up with a load of people posting what single system they've used. There is no benchmark. It works for them... but something else could work better (or different!)... but they wouldn't know.

[quote]
Anyway, as others have mentioned, setting up the PA behind the band is just wrong, so dropping another £3k won't solve the problem - IMHO a couple of good powered speakers out front, with two or three small powered wedges on the stage, combined with a decent small mixer is all you need for a 3 piece pub rock band. I'll refrain from making any more suggestions on brand or model
[/quote]

You are probably right. But if the OP is willing to spend £3k, theres some ace stuff to get which will make life a lot easier in troublesome environments, hence my suggestion of the digital desk.

Edited October 18, 2013 by EBS_freak

[Truckstop]

WHY DOES EVERYONE USE TWO SUBS??

Two decent powered tops and one powerful sub will be fine. All that'll go through the sub is a bit of kick so why bring two when one is all you need? All you'll need then is a little 6 channel mixer and a crossover (I'd imagine at the price points we're talking, the tops and sub will have built in crossovers). The Behringer monitors slave into each other so you don't need loads of aux outs etc and you only need ins for two vox and kick. Maybe snare and overhead if you're feeling decadent.

I know the OP has a massive budget, but that's no need to go off and get a massively overpowered and over complicated PA rig. If you have lots of money, the thing to do would be to invest in quality cab and drum mics. What's the point in having a £3k PA and sh*t mics?

Truckstop

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='Truckstop' timestamp='1382102303' post='2247993']
WHY DOES EVERYONE USE TWO SUBS??
[/quote]

Control and volume. And it looks cool.

[quote]
Two decent powered tops and one powerful sub will be fine. All that'll go through the sub is a bit of kick so why bring two when one is all you need? All you'll need then is a little 6 channel mixer and a crossover (I'd imagine at the price points we're talking, the tops and sub will have built in crossovers). The Behringer monitors slave into each other so you don't need loads of aux outs etc and you only need ins for two vox and kick. Maybe snare and overhead if you're feeling decadent.
[/quote]

For how big a venue? And a lot of it is do with whether you want to hear the bass or feel the bass. One sub won't cut it in bigger venues. There's more than just a bit of kick that goes through my subs. Floor toms love a bit of it. So do grindy organs and synths. Hell, I put my bass through it and run next to, if any at all, no onstage volume. It depends what mentality of PAing you subscribe to I guess. I'm less about backline volume, all about letting the PA do the work.

[quote]
I know the OP has a massive budget, but that's no need to go off and get a massively overpowered and over complicated PA rig. If you have lots of money, the thing to do would be to invest in quality cab and drum mics. What's the point in having a £3k PA and sh*t mics?
[/quote]

No suggestions of massively overpowered, but yes, headroom is something that I'd defo be interested in. A PA that is delivering power to the speakers with ease rather than a system that is being ragged because it's struggling for volume... if anything, they just hurt your ears.

Funnily enough, live mics, you really don't have to spend a lot to get performance. For example, the budget LD systems 7 piece drum mic pack is incredible value for money. They may not be your first choice or recording mic but they do the job very well. My drummer doesn't used them (he's on Audix) but he also comments that they are a good alternative and stonking value for money. Good drummers will appreciate a miced up kit - they can play stuff that would normally get lost... like tiny splashes.

Edited October 18, 2013 by EBS_freak

[mrtcat]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1382101318' post='2247969']


Thats the point. It's another box to carry around... and if you want small and portable doing pub gigs, don't you want to have it all in one box.

Now if I was doing a large scale setup, I'd probably choose to use a load of single poweramps running into passive cabs, with a whole load of processing. But let's keep things in reality here. It's a pub band. He wants a small, portable rig. I reckon that a 2 powered tops, 2 powered subs (with built in crossover), 2 powered monitors, beats 6 passive cabs which would require 3 poweramps and some sort of crossover (e.g. on desk or external unit).


If you want to expand that latter, it's more cabs, more amps. If you expand the futher, just another XLR into another powered cab. Done.

It's pubs. Lets keep things simple eh?
[/quote]
I'd much prefer power amps separately in pubs as there's always a shortage of power supplies so i find it simpler than having to run extension leads all over the place. One sub is more than enough in a pub and you can easily run up to four and sometimes 8 from one amp.

[crez5150]

It all depends on your budget at the end of the day.... some people are happy with the said Mackies and to be fair for pubs its probably adequate.

most of the pubs we get involved with we use two subs and two mid/high as we want a good full sound. small pubs we just use one sub. I'd definitely go active as it's less hassle and the weakest point in any pa system is always gonna be the cables.....

small gigs we use 1 x dynacord Powermate desk thats man enough to drive 2 x 18 subs and 2 x 12+cd
Med gigs we use 2 x active 18's with dynacord TS400 tops..... functions is much the same except we add another two subs....
Anything bigger than that we hire in a sound company

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='mrtcat' timestamp='1382104313' post='2248038']
I'd much prefer power amps separately in pubs as there's always a shortage of power supplies so i find it simpler than having to run extension leads all over the place. One sub is more than enough in a pub and you can easily run up to four and sometimes 8 from one amp.
[/quote]

Make up some long power leads?

In my function bands, we run a whole load of power along the back of the stage and tap off from them. So that's all the onstage lighting, amps, wireless units etc... then we take two feeds down the side to the fronts on long cables. Y cable connector between sub and top. Long power taped along front to power moving heads and front of stage lights.

It's all about planning. Uber neat. Uber quick setup.

Also, are you running mono with what you are suggesting? Given the fact that most amps are 2 channel, I take it you are running a sub off one channel and the rest off the other channel. You don't want to be running tops and a sub off one feed... not without a crossover in there somewhere... What are you doing with the monitors too? FOH mix as monitor, how do you control the stage volume? You probably want 4 channels minimum... which in most typical power amp setups, would be at least 2.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='crez5150' timestamp='1382104641' post='2248050']
It all depends on your budget at the end of the day.... some people are happy with the said Mackies and to be fair for pubs its probably adequate.

most of the pubs we get involved with we use two subs and two mid/high as we want a good full sound. small pubs we just use one sub. I'd definitely go active as it's less hassle and the weakest point in any pa system is always gonna be the cables.....

small gigs we use 1 x dynacord Powermate desk thats man enough to drive 2 x 18 subs and 2 x 12+cd
Med gigs we use 2 x active 18's with dynacord TS400 tops..... functions is much the same except we add another two subs....
Anything bigger than that we hire in a sound company
[/quote]


Agreed. I think we are coming from a different direction here. Investing in decent PA is the best thing you can do with a band. Forget the backline... a good PA and desk allows you a much better FOH sound, better monitoring capability and lower on stage volumes.

You see countless threads on here about people not being able to hear themselves, not having a loud enough amp... you know... all these problems could vanish....

[alexclaber]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1382101318' post='2247969'] It's a pub band. He wants a small, portable rig. I reckon that a 2 powered tops, 2 powered subs (with built in crossover), 2 powered monitors, beats 6 passive cabs which would require 3 poweramps and some sort of crossover (e.g. on desk or external unit).[/quote]

You're quite right. But I think that with our new drivers you could use two tops and a 2U rack with a class D DSP amp, plus whatever you use for monitors and that would be it. No need for subwoofers unless you're going very loud. If you need a subs we could make a single lightweight sub and build a 2U rack into it, thus making it effectively an active unit which will replace two typical active subs. However, we'd need to see how much bottom our drivers can bring when up on stands and thus losing the boundary reinforcement off the floor.

[Ghost_Bass]

In my personal experience i would go for RCF instead of Mackie any day! My band's current PA consists on two RCF ART312 tops and two dB 15SUB underneath. We couldn't afford some nice RCF subs but the tops are keepers. Never heard anything better (in fact i had, from Martin Audio and this could be a good choice for you seeing that money is no object). They're very light too, i can mount each top on its pole by myself, but with an extra hand gets a lot easier.

Summing it up, forget about line arrays, if you're only going to use the PA for vocals then you just need a pair of two 12" or 15" top quality Tops working at fullrange. Calssic PA setup is the answer IMHO

Edited October 18, 2013 by Ghost_Bass

[redstriper]

[quote name='crez5150' timestamp='1382093837' post='2247782']
Have you listened to the DLM12 yet....?? They're pretty dire.....
[/quote]

I disagree, although you could probably make it sound dire like any speaker if you tried hard enough

We use 5 of them, (2 FOH, 3 monitors) along with a matching sub and the wireless i-pad mixer.
It's a fantastic versatile system that sounds great in any venue with any band.
Lightweight and powerful with excellent feedback elimination plus built in gates, compressors and effects.

[6v6]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1382105444' post='2248068']
Agreed. I think we are coming from a different direction here. Investing in decent PA is the best thing you can do with a band. Forget the backline... a good PA and desk allows you a much better FOH sound, better monitoring capability and lower on stage volumes.

You see countless threads on here about people not being able to hear themselves, not having a loud enough amp... you know... all these problems could vanish....
[/quote]

This is true, but only if you put everything through the PA, which (for a pub band, without someone to setup all the mics and drive the desk, which the OP says he doesn't want) is a huge amount of extra effort, even with a digital desk.

IME, it's too much to expect someone in the band to mix the band and play at the same time, unless the setup is very simple (ie just vocals, maybe with a bit of kick drum and DI's bass to fill out the sound in larger venues)

[crez5150]

Ok... perhaps dire is a bit too strong.... but I don't rate them at all (just my opinion) there's far better to be had for a lot less money these days. They had them at the PLASA shootout last week and they were pretty underwhelming. Some of the DB technologies stuff was far better and for the same sort of money

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1382106418' post='2248088']
You're quite right. But I think that with our new drivers you could use two tops and a 2U rack with a class D DSP amp, plus whatever you use for monitors and that would be it. No need for subwoofers unless you're going very loud. If you need a subs we could make a single lightweight sub and build a 2U rack into it, thus making it effectively an active unit which will replace two typical active subs. However, we'd need to see how much bottom our drivers can bring when up on stands and thus losing the boundary reinforcement off the floor.
[/quote]

That seems pretty sensible - any ideas on a suitable Class D DSP? Of course, having seperates (even if its housed in the same physical unit) pushes the prices up so it would need to be a good competitor to a powered cab solution pricewise before even looking at performance to make it competitive.

The amount of bottom end could be an interesting problem to overcome.

[The Dark Lord]

[quote name='redstriper' timestamp='1382106977' post='2248104']
I disagree, although you could probably make it sound dire like any speaker if you tried hard enough

We use 5 of them, (2 FOH, 3 monitors) along with a matching sub and the wireless i-pad mixer.
It's a fantastic versatile system that sounds great in any venue with any band.
Lightweight and powerful with excellent feedback elimination plus built in gates, compressors and effects.
[/quote]

Thank you. This is a useful contribution. I may ask you a question or two if I can think of them!

[The Dark Lord]

[quote name='redstriper' timestamp='1382106977' post='2248104']
I disagree, although you could probably make it sound dire like any speaker if you tried hard enough

We use 5 of them, (2 FOH, 3 monitors) along with a matching sub and the wireless i-pad mixer.
It's a fantastic versatile system that sounds great in any venue with any band.
Lightweight and powerful with excellent feedback elimination plus built in gates, compressors and effects.
[/quote]

So, do you have 2 x DLM12 on poles and 3 x DLM8 as monitors? Also, which one of the digital mixers did you go for - the 8 or the 16?

[crez5150]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1382106418' post='2248088']
You're quite right. But I think that with our new drivers you could use two tops and a 2U rack with a class D DSP amp, plus whatever you use for monitors and that would be it. No need for subwoofers unless you're going very loud. If you need a subs we could make a single lightweight sub and build a 2U rack into it, thus making it effectively an active unit which will replace two typical active subs. However, we'd need to see how much bottom our drivers can bring when up on stands and thus losing the boundary reinforcement off the floor.
[/quote]

I'd like to believe the 'no need for subs' quote but I'd have to hear it. I think this is gonna be a relatively expensive system so I would have a good look at where you think you are going to sell this. Are you developing your own DSP and Amp or are you think of third party equipment and concentrate on the cabinets ?

[redstriper]

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1382110070' post='2248177']
So, do you have 2 x DLM12 on poles and 3 x DLM8 as monitors? Also, which one of the digital mixers did you go for - the 8 or the 16?
[/quote]

Hi DL,
The system belongs to our guitarist and he hires it out to other bands and for various functions.
It all fits easily in the back of his Skoda estate and the speakers stack nicely for easy storage at home.
It consists of 5 x DLM12s and 1 X dlm12s Sub.
This is felxible enough for small vocal only gigs right up to larger full band and drums mic'd gigs.
The DLM12s are used as monitors as well as FOH on poles, they are small, lightweight and very loud with built in eq, effects and feedback elimination.
We usually have 2 x DLMs on poles for FOH and 3 more as stage monitors.
The desk is the 16 channel one and it is absolutely brilliant to use, each band member can set their own monitor mix on their i-phone or i-pad.
We have never felt the need to do that, but the option is there if required.
The desk also stores settings, so EQ and effects can be saved for each instrument or vocal and these can be recalled instantly and then tweaked for different venues.

You may not need so many DLM12s or the 16 channel mixer, but it's nice to have the options and with 5 DLM12s there's always a spare in case of a breakdown in one.
It suits us and it has been used by a variety of other acts who have been very pleased with the sound, but it may not suit you and there is always an element of risk in such purchases.

Ours came from gear4music here:
[url="http://www.gear4music.com/PA-DJ-and-Lighting/Mackie-DLM12-DL1608-Digital-PA-System/P1H"]http://www.gear4music.com/PA-DJ-and-Lighting/Mackie-DLM12-DL1608-Digital-PA-System/P1H[/url]

Hope this helps.
Steve.

[JTUK]

We use QSC and it is ok, but you'd need subs and a tight room for 300.... I think you'd be pushing it but then again 300 is not a pub, IMO

The tops are decent as standalones but you'll want the 12's for that.
If you run subs 90% of the time then you can go for the 10's as they sound better balanced
run in that config, IMO

I'd also look for wooden boxes, so we went KW.... they are better but we are talking small margins really.

We went for QSC as it was the leader at that sort of price point... and for the 4 boxes, you'll pay £3-3.5k ball park.

Others that can be a reasonable second were RCF...
Mackie and JBL were in the second division but since we've stopped looking, JBL may well have decent kit to get gack in the game.

Wouldn't rule out HK but QSC is pretty compact, decent sounding- in that you'd pay a lot more money to get much better and even the KW12's are light enough to man handle unless you are fragile.

Andertons in Guildford have a decent room to A/B stuff but ring them for stock levels.
They had QSC, RCF, Yamaha and a few others when we were there.

[mrtcat]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1382105281' post='2248064']
Also, are you running mono with what you are suggesting? Given the fact that most amps are 2 channel, I take it you are running a sub off one channel and the rest off the other channel. You don't want to be running tops and a sub off one feed... not without a crossover in there somewhere... What are you doing with the monitors too? FOH mix as monitor, how do you control the stage volume? You probably want 4 channels minimum... which in most typical power amp setups, would be at least 2.
[/quote] No we have three power amps but that's because we play everything from pub to outdoor festival and therefore need to cover every base. As you'll se from my sig I have more PA than the OP needs. My point is that two lightweight 1U amps could drive a full system including monitors. A single sub well placed will outperform two of the same subs if they're placed underneath the tops at either side of the stage because unless the they are more than 56feet apart they need to be less than 2.8 feet from each other to couple. Placing a single sub near a solid wall or even better in a corner will deliver surprisingly good results thanks to boundary effect. Don't forget this is pubs we're talking about.