What new high-quality PA system for pub band?

[The Dark Lord]

[quote name='redstriper' timestamp='1382119576' post='2248357']
Hi DL,
The system belongs to our guitarist and he hires it out to other bands and for various functions.
It all fits easily in the back of his Skoda estate and the speakers stack nicely for easy storage at home.
It consists of 5 x DLM12s and 1 X dlm12s Sub.
This is felxible enough for small vocal only gigs right up to larger full band and drums mic'd gigs.
The DLM12s are used as monitors as well as FOH on poles, they are small, lightweight and very loud with built in eq, effects and feedback elimination.
We usually have 2 x DLMs on poles for FOH and 3 more as stage monitors.
The desk is the 16 channel one and it is absolutely brilliant to use, each band member can set their own monitor mix on their i-phone or i-pad.
We have never felt the need to do that, but the option is there if required.
The desk also stores settings, so EQ and effects can be saved for each instrument or vocal and these can be recalled instantly and then tweaked for different venues.

You may not need so many DLM12s or the 16 channel mixer, but it's nice to have the options and with 5 DLM12s there's always a spare in case of a breakdown in one.
It suits us and it has been used by a variety of other acts who have been very pleased with the sound, but it may not suit you and there is always an element of risk in such purchases.

Ours came from gear4music here:
[url="http://www.gear4music.com/PA-DJ-and-Lighting/Mackie-DLM12-DL1608-Digital-PA-System/P1H"]http://www.gear4musi...l-PA-System/P1H[/url]

Hope this helps.
Steve.
[/quote]

Mr Redstriper, I have never come across you before, but this is a post intervention WIN !! Well done. You may now pass Go and collect £200. Except not from me.

Thank you.

I assume that you are happy with the tone of the whole thing and you don't find it in any way "dire"?

[redstriper]

Ha and indeed kerching!

I forgot to say the tone is of course completely dire

In truth, I'm no expert on the tone of PAs systems and I couldn't say what make of PA was being used at any gig without looking.
To me, a PA is there simply to make things louder and the tone depends mostly on how it's set up, EQ, FX and the room it's in.
The main thing for most bands is that they get a good clear, loud monitor mix, with no feedback.
The FOH sound should be the same, with no unpleasant frequencies to interfere with the crowd's enjoyment of the act.
The Mackie system accomplishes this with ease and it is a huge improvement over most of the PAs I've used in pubs and clubs over the years.
But that's not to say there aren't better options for your needs and we haven't tried any of the other high end systems mentioned above.
We chose this system blind, without auditioning or comparing it to anything else, because we liked the idea of it, (especially the mixer).
We haven't been disappointed.

The system is also used at a weekly student disco, where it's set up without monitors - just 2 tops on stands.
The music is played from the i-pad and consists of a range of chart hits, vintage funk, soul, reggae, disco etc.
The kids dance all night and everyone goes home happy despite the dire sound.

[bertbass]

Like MRTCAT we have gone the Bill Fitzmaurice route and couldn't be happier. 2 x Otop 12s and 2 T39s, indoors, outdoors, tiny pubs, theatres, infact anywhere. We run it crossed over 3 way with a pair of these, http://www.thomann.de/gb/the_tamp_d4500.htm, one either side. Brilliant sound and brilliant volume if needed. The mixer and all outboard gear is racked and on wheels and sits in the backline so I can get at it easily and we only have to run a mains lead, 2 signal leads to the amp racks and 2 foldback speaker leads and we're ready to go.

I have to admit that I'm not a fan of Mackie systems, they sound a bit harsh to me.

[Kevin Dean]

I use a Peavey XR1212 with 15 UL tops & UL 15 subs & a CS3000 power amps for the subs . The cabs are only abour 50lbs each . The auto EQ on the XR 1212 is great . we can mic up the kit & it gets a great sound that is missing in a lot of pub bands IMHO .

[flyfisher]

Given the wide range of advice being offered and given that there's a budget of around £3000 for the right system, is it worth considering hiring some gear to try out?

Is this the sort of thing a friendly dealer could help with, i.e. hiring out some gear for a refundable amount if a new system is actually purchased? I've no idea if this sort of arrangement is commonplace but it might be one way to make sense of all the advice and gear options being proposed.

[JTUK]

The other thing is...define quality.
The OP posted high quality in the thread and QSC is certainly that... but only up to a point.
Martin is a step again, for instance, so if you are saying high quality for £3k -ish then QSC is the best we found.
We think it is worth the price difference over RCF, Yamaha, JBL, Mackie and the like... by some way
but it depends what the buyer hears.

If you have subs and can get good seperation out of the P.A ...then almost anything will beat 2 tops, ..almost..unless very good tops.
300w per side vocal P.A's are a pretty poor place to start from a vocal point of view...so put your money in the tops as these will ALWAYS
be on the gig.
Subs can be crucial as well,..as plenty are pretty flabby, and avoid things like the Mackie thump which was truly horrible, but we likedm DB and RCF and we went for the RCF's when space, weight and performance were taken into consideration. We even liked then over the QSC subs..
so it will be really be worth it going to a shop that has a demo room to A/B as much as you can.

[The Dark Lord]

I can't remember saying, anywhere in this thread, that our budget is £3,000. I did say I don't want to spend another £2,800 on something that might not be loud enough. I suspect we have a notional budget of about £5K but, in reality, we will pay for the system that we think suits our needs the best. We will only really be placing vocals through the PA. Our drummer has three or four waaaaaay high quality kits and his kick is never in need of any amplification. I'm also not 100% sure of all of this talk of 18" subs and the like. You get some bands who like to deafen the audience. I play either 2 x Aer Amp Ones or a MiBass 550 via a Barefaced Compact. There is no way on any part of The Earth that you will need to put this via the FOH in a pub. Anyway, the vocal mikes will pick up the backline. Also, bandmate as a 40 Watt Hot Rod Deluxe which puts out more dB than your average 100 watt Marshall. Those, with a quality drum kit, need no re-inforcement. Also, with no separate sound man/woman, it's too complicated to try to lower the stage volume and put it all through FOH. Remember, the context here is a pub. From zero to 200 punters usually. 18" subs?

[JTUK]

Then I'd look at Martin Audio, Nexo, maybe Dynacord and Meyer... but I'd think this overkill in a pub.
We have been impressed with EAW when we've used it hired-in, but not sure of the product line.

If pub only, then powered new ish Mackie and Yamaha will do... but we've heard the later Mackie is more fragile than the earlier generation... from guys who repair it and you can say that about JBL and HK as well.
Maybe the kit gets a beating and maybe it has been a round long enough...or maybe they use cheaper parts...
The latest range of JBL may be worth looking at as our keys preferred them over QSC... but can't recall if the price was the factor there.

[mrtcat]

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1382191221' post='2249096']
18" subs?
[/quote] Nobody needs 18" subs. One or two decent 12s would suffice. However if all you want to mic is vocals then just go for two middle of the road powered tops (Mackies or yamaha's as mentioned by JTUK would do nicely) and some nice reverb / delay. You'll be EQing out most of what a sub would cover anyhow. If you're only running vocals through a PA then anything spent over about £1k is a waste of cash in my opinion.

[crez5150]

[quote name='mrtcat' timestamp='1382212576' post='2249451']
Nobody needs 18" subs. One or two decent 12s would suffice. However if all you want to mic is vocals then just go for two middle of the road powered tops (Mackies or yamaha's as mentioned by JTUK would do nicely) and some nice reverb / delay. You'll be EQing out most of what a sub would cover anyhow. If you're only running vocals through a PA then anything spent over about £1k is a waste of cash in my opinion.
[/quote]

Really...... well I guess it depends on the type of pubs you play.... most of the ones we play you need to have a decent system and there's no way I'd go out with just a pair of 12" tops......

[Karnage]

I've had some Mk1 Mackie SRM450's for a long while, and they are fun all-use speakers, but a little 'hifi' in their approach, i.e. they do sound better at 8-10ft than at 40ft which isn't ideal. I use them for parties and all sorts of things. They have a great sound for playing CDs through or quieter acoustic stuff in better sounding venues, but they aren't the best thing in the world at vocal projection, DB technologies stuff as pointed out is better, even the Opera 450 of the same era was actually better (and cheaper) for vocal projection, even if for music/parties the Mackie was much better at the low end (why I kept them when selling off my big rig).

The big thing was the Mackie sounded better than the opera with music in a shop but not in the 'real world' when trying to project vocals, and that's where choosing can be tricky. If you get a chance to listen to things, don't do so too close up, and note that a venue with a lively acoustic can require some mid frequency projection to get through, this might feel like mid 'brightness' close up in a shop, but work out way better when gigging. I'm not talking about the bright treble that the Mackie SRM450 has, but mid frequencies where vocal detail is delivered (where the Mackie is a bit lacking really).

Listening to PA is only really good in a shop when they have a big enough environment for you to really know what's going on at useful distances. Good luck and take your time. Hire/borrow a few bits where you can I think as was recommended before.

[MoonBassAlpha]

[size=4][sub]This may sound overly simplistic, but I would just start by putting your existing Bose speakers either side of the stage in front of the mics, then you should be able to get more volume FOH without feeding back so readily. As I understand your problem, its feedback preventing you getting enough volume on the vox, not the PA running out of puff?[/sub][/size]

[Phil Starr]

Hi,

I'm not going to add to the endless list of brands but to try to home in exactly what you want to achieve. In your OP you indicate that price is not the main driver behind your choice, You talk about a system but most of the talk has been about speakers. You talk about only putting vocals through the PA. You've discovered the limitations of the Bose.

In going for the Bose you seem to be looking for an off the shelf, set up and forget solution. Certainly as far as the amps and speakers are concerned, is this fair?

How much do you want something high end and how much do you want to just buy something that just works well and that you have confidence in so you can get on with the music? Are you looking to buy a VW Golf or a Ferrari?

I don't think you mentioned mixers, I assume you are happy with what you have?

How much do you want something high end and how much do you want to just buy something that just works well and that you have confidence in so you can get on with the music? Are you looking to buy a VW Golf or a Ferrari?Are you really only ever going to put vocals through the PA? This is critical as the requirements for vocals are very different to those for almost anything else a band does. Most of the information in vocals is carried in the 300-3000Hz range with almost no low frequency sound needed. This means that 15's and even 12's will have serious shortcomings and the quality of the horns and the crossovers becomes much more important.

The shortcomings of larger speakers for vocals are simple enough. Large cones can't radiate high frequencies without the sound from one part of the cone interfering with the sound from another part and above the frequencies whose wavelength corresponds to the diameter of the cone the sound is increasingly beamed. On top of that the mass of a large cone becomes difficult to move around quickly enough to accurately reproduce high frequencies.The problem with the crossovers is that they introduce distortions of their own around the crossover frequency and that sits right in the middle of the frequencies critical to vocals. Unfortunately there are few systems out there that are engineered with this in mind. the biggest problem is getting sufficient volume out of a small speaker.

I'm assuming you will go for an active speaker with a built in amp and crossover. The active crossover is much more likely to give you a clear sound through the midrange and you really don't need to carry all the extra boxes and wiring that people are suggesting.

Have a look at three alternatives, systems with small satellites as tops such as the HK Elements system [url="http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug11/articles/hk-elements.htm"]http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug11/articles/hk-elements.htm[/url], speakers with a dedicated mid range driver and thirdly, as some of the louder 10"+horn speakers like the RCF Art series [url="http://www.rcf.it/en_US/products/pro-speaker-systems/art-7-series/art-710-a-mk-ii"]http://www.rcf.it/en_US/products/pro-speaker-systems/art-7-series/art-710-a-mk-ii[/url].

Mainly though you need to have a listen to your shortlist. As you can see one persons 'dire sound' is another's nirvana. Mainly I suspect down to putting different demands upon the PA's in question.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1382342447' post='2250710']
I don't think you mentioned mixers, I assume you are happy with what you have?
[/quote]

Guessing he's using the ToneMatch as in the first post (that's the Bose mixer)

Edited October 21, 2013 by EBS_freak

[redstriper]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1382342447' post='2250710']
I'm not going to add to the endless list of brands but to try to home in exactly what you want to achieve.
[/quote]

Excellent post - it's all about using the right tool for the job.
Our Mackie system has to do lots of different jobs and it does them all very well, but it may not be the best choice in every specific situation.

[The Dark Lord]

Yes indeed. When I say that cost is not the main criterion in this case, your bloke up there a couple of posts back is correct.

What we're really after is something that is portable, powerful enough AND very easy to set up.

I'm shifting towards the Mackie DLM thing. My guess would be 2 x DLM12 units as tops connected via poles to 2 x DLM12S units as subs. Then 2 x DLM8 units as monitors - all tied together by one of the DL806 mixers.

That looks like a good option.

[redstriper]

You will not need subs if the PA is just for vocals, although they are handy for kick drum and bass guitar in bigger venues.
We bought one, with a view to getting another if necessary, but we haven't felt the need so far.
The sub is usually placed centrally, but it can be placed against a wall or in a corner for extra bass extension.

They are very clean sounding speakers and they can be harsh with the wrong EQ settings, they are also very loud which can accentuate harshness.
The speakers have independent EQ and effects if required, here's the specs:
[url="http://www.mackie.com/products/dlmseries/pdf/DLM8-12_OM.pdf"]http://www.mackie.com/products/dlmseries/pdf/DLM8-12_OM.pdf[/url]
There are probably better speakers for vocal only use, the Mackies are good all rounders for a variety of applications, including full range DJ use.

The EQ in the mixer is very powerful and easy to use with the i-pad interface and someone can stand FOH with the i-pad and set the EQ and effects during the sound check.
EQ settings can be saved for different voices and instruments, these settings can then be tweaked for different venues and re-saved to a different location.
This means you can have a pre programmed mix for every regular venue you play.

As I say, the Mackie system works for us, but it may not suit everyone.

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1382370760' post='2251344']
Yes indeed. When I say that cost is not the main criterion in this case, your bloke up there a couple of posts back is correct.

What we're really after is something that is portable, powerful enough AND very easy to set up.

I'm shifting towards the Mackie DLM thing. My guess would be 2 x DLM12 units as tops connected via poles to 2 x DLM12S units as subs. Then 2 x DLM8 units as monitors - all tied together by one of the DL806 mixers.

That looks like a good option.
[/quote]

This doesn't look like a bad choice. Mackie was the trendy brand with the SRM450's and then people fell out of love as everyone else raised their game and they transferred their manufacture. This doesn't make them dire, just less trendy. The acid test is to go and listen to them, if you like the way they sound then go for it. You could probably get the same, or similar capability by mixing and matching from a range of manufacturers but on paper this is a very capable option. If you are only going to use them for vocals why buy the subs? They make very expensive stands and if you only use them for vocals they won't make a sound as you can't sing that low. You could also add them later if you decide to start putting bass and kick through your PA.

[Alec]

My RFC ART 722As have astonishing power and clarity - especially with vocals, all at 18kg. I compared them with other speakers in the ART range and these were head and shoulders the best. That said, they were pricey at just under £1k each.

If I were in the market now, I'd also be auditioning the newer RCF HD-12A (around £640), Yamaha DXR12 (£510) & DSR112 (£810), all of which are getting much love at the moment. I'd be steering clear of 15" speakers - you're after vocals.

For monitoring, I have ART 710As - but again would consider some of the above 10" variants now. Honestly, these can easily double up as FOH for vocal only stuff. All at only 12kg!

While I have subs, they tend not to come out for smaller pub gigs, as we put just vocals & acoustic guitar through the PA. Not to mention that, unless you have a van, subs end up being a transport liability. I was intrigued by the stupidly thin & light [url="http://www.flareaudio.com/products/sb-series/sb18c.html"]Flare Audio SB18C[/url] at PLASA last week. Never got a chance to hear it, mind, nor get a guide price - though it looks too good to be true...

Little talk of mixers in this thread. With your budget options, a Soundcraft SI Expression or A&H QU16 are both options. Might feel overkill having a full-on digital desk in a pub. But, it gives you full EQ, dynamics & effects in a single unit - plus a fully recallable mix. I use a Yamaha 01V96, which is rather older, but still gives me all those benefits - great to be able to use a few effects in appropriate places. And, obviously, can be fab if you scale up your PA for larger events (unless you just hire in)

And, of course, decent mics. Hope you're already down that road, but the right mics make life so much easier.

Not sure what your engineering skills are like, but you may also find that, once you've made a purchase, it's worth getting someone capable to get you all set up and sounding fantastic in a rehearsal/gig situation - including tweaking monitor eq for GBF, given that it's an issue for you with your current system. While you'll obviously need to adjust for each venue, this would give you a great starting point.

[The Dark Lord]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1382515419' post='2252968']
......... If you are only going to use them for vocals why buy the subs? They make very expensive stands and if you only use them for vocals they won't make a sound as you can't sing that low. You could also add them later if you decide to start putting bass and kick through your PA.
[/quote]

I understand what you are saying, but there is another point to consider. When you play in a pub, with the backline so close to the singers, the full range of the band (including drums, bass and guitar amps) will be picked up via the vocal mics and then projected into the room via the tops and subs. So, you do get value from having them. It's not massive, but it is in there and part of the whole sound mix. If you ever take a recoding out from the desk at a gig on one of the vocal channels, you'll hear what I mean. I may only get one sub for the moment - and add a second if it goes well.

[Alec]

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1382528556' post='2253189']
I understand what you are saying, but there is another point to consider. When you play in a pub, with the backline so close to the singers, the full range of the band (including drums, bass and guitar amps) will be picked up via the vocal mics and then projected into the room via the tops and subs. So, you do get value from having them. It's not massive, but it is in there and part of the whole sound mix. If you ever take a recoding out from the desk at a gig on one of the vocal channels, you'll hear what I mean. I may only get one sub for the moment - and add a second if it goes well.
[/quote]

Pretty much any mics other than kick, floor-tom and bass, I'd be applying a HPF to. Certainly to vocal mics. So there would be negligable bottom end in the vocal mics. And, anyway, it's the last thing you want. You do use a HPF on your vocal channels, right?

[The Dark Lord]

Depends what we plug them through at the time - but use high pass all you like, you'll still hear the bass through the vocal mikes. Just less of it when you use a filter and the higher the setting (depending whose technology you are using) the more robotic the voices will start to sound. Nothing wrong with not using a filter.

Edited October 23, 2013 by The Dark Lord

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1382528556' post='2253189']
I understand what you are saying, but there is another point to consider. When you play in a pub, with the backline so close to the singers, the full range of the band (including drums, bass and guitar amps) will be picked up via the vocal mics and then projected into the room via the tops and subs. So, you do get value from having them. It's not massive, but it is in there and part of the whole sound mix. If you ever take a recoding out from the desk at a gig on one of the vocal channels, you'll hear what I mean. I may only get one sub for the moment - and add a second if it goes well.
[/quote]
[quote name='Alec' timestamp='1382529776' post='2253212']
Pretty much any mics other than kick, floor-tom and bass, I'd be applying a HPF to. Certainly to vocal mics. So there would be negligable bottom end in the vocal mics. And, anyway, it's the last thing you want. You do use a HPF on your vocal channels, right?
[/quote]
Hope you weren't taking offence at the expensive speaker stand comment, it was meant to be a joke.

Alec's right though, you should be using your filters as a matter of course, in any case the real problem with bass is the excursion it causes small speakers and this only really becomes a problem below 50-70 Hz. In your case most vocal mics don't pick that up anyway and I hope you aren't operating at levels where the drums and backline are coming through your vocal mics at anything like the same volume as your vocals, Even if you have no LF cut on your desk and you are using an unusual full range mic for vocals any bleed through is not going to cause your speakers a problem unless it is within a few dB of your vocals. you really don't need subs for the use you describe .

[EBS_freak]

I don't want to appear rude here but I certainly would be looking into to some basic skills of using a PA before investing heavily.

[bassace]

Look a few topics down, get a good recommendation for a budget system and pay them £5k. Simple.