What new high-quality PA system for pub band?

[6v6]

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1382528556' post='2253189']
I understand what you are saying, but there is another point to consider. When you play in a pub, with the backline so close to the singers, the full range of the band (including drums, bass and guitar amps) will be picked up via the vocal mics and then projected into the room via the tops and subs. So, you do get value from having them. It's not massive, but it is in there and part of the whole sound mix. If you ever take a recoding out from the desk at a gig on one of the vocal channels, you'll hear what I mean. I may only get one sub for the moment - and add a second if it goes well.
[/quote]

This comment pretty much explains your feedback issues IMO. The whole point of decent live mics with tight polar patterns is that they *don't* pick up loads of ambient noise - unless you turn the PA up super loud and don't sing close enough to the mic.

[JPJ]

Surely it really depends on what you are trying to achieve?

For example, our little (loud) pub rock 5 piece use two 15" subs and two 15"+horn tops for vocals and drums. Backline takes care of itself. I think we get a decent enough sound (I should, I do the mix) and having a separate outboard crossover helps me tailor the rig to the room. In truth, I'd like a bit more top/upper mid but budget dictates that we use what we've got.

PA gear has advanced significantly in the last few years. Yes, at one time I would have insisted on a pair of 18" bins (2x18" if I could get away with it) but modern powered 15" bins will give you plenty of 'thump' in most scenarios. If your playing massive clubs every week then yes probably still 18" is the way to go, but down the dog and sproat its overkill.

My own belief is that as the digital mixers become more feature rich and cheaper, more bands will be dumping the racks of outboard they currently use and doing it all in the desk, meaning that they can afford to go back to passive PA cabs and a small rack of lightweight Class D type power amps. A rig like Alex is suggesting will with an all-in-one box cabinet per side become a possibility in terms of portability and will probably do away with the need for separate bins and mid/tops. If you've ever used Mackies 1532's you'll know what I mean when I say you can still get a great FOH rock sound without the need to carry separate bass bins.

If your buying today with a budget of between £3k - £5k then you'll be spoilt for choice. My preference would be for some of the powered RCF kit but that is because I'm looking at a particular application.

[cupples]

Hi, a bit late to this thread. if money is truly not a concern, and you like the sound of the AER bass amp, how about the AER PA kit? Their prices are eye-watering, but I'm sure the kit is compact and powerful - something like the AER AS 550 top and sub would run you around USD12000 for two of each... I have no idea if they have a UK dealer, but it would be fun having a play with them :-)

[mrtcat]

[quote name='crez5150' timestamp='1382269637' post='2249819']
Really...... well I guess it depends on the type of pubs you play.... most of the ones we play you need to have a decent system and there's no way I'd go out with just a pair of 12" tops......
[/quote]
Agree totally but the OP says he's only interested in reinforcement for vocals and there are some really good powered tops that would comfortably do that. Personally I'd never dream of only putting vocals through the PA unless the venue was tiny with a nasty limiter but that is the criteria that the OP is saying he wants. My post was suggesting 12" subs not tops (our tops actually have 8" drivers - albeit in folded horns so they don't sound or act like you'd expect from 8's). 18's are generally big, heavy and difficult to move. A well designed lightweight sub can work wonders whilst keeping the amount of gear humping to a minimum.

[The Dark Lord]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1382539425' post='2253393']
I don't want to appear rude here but I certainly would be looking into to some basic skills of using a PA before investing heavily.
[/quote]

You appear rude.

[The Dark Lord]

[quote name='cupples' timestamp='1382556372' post='2253683']
Hi, a bit late to this thread. if money is truly not a concern, and you like the sound of the AER bass amp, how about the AER PA kit? Their prices are eye-watering, but I'm sure the kit is compact and powerful - something like the AER AS 550 top and sub would run you around USD12000 for two of each... I have no idea if they have a UK dealer, but it would be fun having a play with them :-)
[/quote]

This is an interesting idea. Mind you, it's difficult to figure them out, as they must have THE worst website of any manufacturer of anything. I'll look into this though.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1382565926' post='2253878']


You appear rude.
[/quote]

Still stands though... Some rudamentary knowledge of how to use a PA would probably yield greater results than throwing more cash at the situation at this point.

Just sayin'

[The Dark Lord]

Well, "just saying" EBS freak that I have been setting up PAs in band for a long time. At least every other week for the last couple years. And for a long time before that. So, I guess I know what to do - so I have much more than basic skills and rudimentary knowledge. But thanks for your kind advice!

[stingrayPete1977]

Our sound guy has done two gigs a week since the mid eightees, he still can't work a pa!

[Happy Jack]

Just reverting briefly to the issue of powered cabs vs multiple power amps, I hate powered cabs (especially tops) so I use [url="http://www.thomann.de/gb/powersoft_digam_m_28_q.htm"]http://www.thomann.de/gb/powersoft_digam_m_28_q.htm[/url]

Essentially, it's four high-quality power amps in a single 1U piece of kit.

We're a 4-piece pub-rock outfit playing - by the sound of it - very similar gigs to the OP. We use the PA only for vocals (three of us sing), driving a pair of 1x12 McGregor tops and a 1x10 wedge monitor. That leaves a spare channel which is my Plan B in the event of a bass-amp meltdown, I can run my BDDI through it.

In the past it has also happily supported keyboards, electronic sax, and mic'd kickdrum.

There's no lack of headroom.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1382570442' post='2253942']
Well, "just saying" EBS freak that I have been setting up PAs in band for a long time. At least every other week for the last couple years. And for a long time before that. So, I guess I know what to do - so I have much more than basic skills and rudimentary knowledge. But thanks for your kind advice!
[/quote]

I would have thought then, you wouldnt be making the novice mistakes that you have talked about in this thread. If you read back through the thread, Ive tried to be nothing but helpful. Go buy your next piece of sh*t and get sh*tty results with that.

Time doesnt equal skills gained if the time invested is learning bad practice. Its the same with playing the bass. If that rule stood, everybody on here would have many bass greats standing in their shadow.

I repeat what I said earlier. Good luck. :-)

[stevie]

I'm not sure that someone who has already spent £2,800 on a Bose L1 and is considering buying a second one really "knows what they're doing", but saying so would probably be considered rude - and that wouldn't do.

[nottswarwick]

For my 2p, even in pub gigs we use a sub. It's not that it is strictly necessary, but we feel that it helps to push the kick drum through the mix with a little more authority (it is a top line drum kit, btw), as well as giving the lead guitarist the chance to be clearly heard without deafening all and sundry on the stage.

One of the basic principles of live sound is to have manageable stage volumes. Thus our back line is generally pretty quiet, balanced with a musically sensitive drummer who is not a big hitter. So, more often than not, everything will be in the PA, even in small venues. That way, I can control the FOH mix far better, and we are not loud on stage.

I could never achieve this kind of controlled meaty sound only with tops, and only with vocals in the PA. It sounds very thin and lacking authority. Poor sound.

I'd be looking at a four box system. Two tops, and two subs, and would only use one sub for smaller pubs. If bigger pubs, where a fuller or louder presence is needed, I'd use both subs. Don't care what brand, just listen to a few.

In my view, even in a small pub, bands sound thin without that low end push that subs give, unless it is an acoustic act. I wouldn't dream of gigging without one sub at least.

Oh, I use a Mixwizard 16 channel desk with no global EQ for either monitor sends or FOH. (If the past I have had a GL2400 without outboard EQ, but it is too much for a self op PA).

It is not idea in this respect, but because I set it up properly and have manageable stage volumes we don't have feedback problems. 9 gigs in 10 I do the sound, and this is the case.

However, to illustrate that there is a skill involved in it, occasionally I switch to drums, and thus one of the other chaps does the PA. He is not as experienced or skilled in it as me, and invariably he adjusts something incorrectly which leads to feedback of some sort. Or, if we get issues due to the stage or venue or whatever, he cannot fix it without messing something else up, whereas I can sort the problem straight away.

I am not presuming that the OP does not have the level of skill required, as that would be un-gentlemanly. However, what I say above has been learnt from 20 years doing self op PA in all manner of venues, and operating my gear on a hired out basis for other bands.


Hope this helps.

Chris.

[The Dark Lord]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1382602780' post='2254099']
I would have thought then, you wouldnt be making the novice mistakes that you have talked about in this thread. If you read back through the thread, Ive tried to be nothing but helpful. Go buy your next piece of sh*t and get sh*tty results with that.

Time doesnt equal skills gained if the time invested is learning bad practice. Its the same with playing the bass. If that rule stood, everybody on here would have many bass greats standing in their shadow.

I repeat what I said earlier. Good luck. :-)
[/quote]

I was looking for advice on selecting kit - and all you did was troll me. You did that on one of my previous threads. You are now blocked.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1382605020' post='2254152']
I was looking for advice on selecting kit - and all you did was troll me. You did that on one of my previous threads. You are now blocked.
[/quote]

Trolling? Really? Where? Other threads? Show me. Man. Get back on the meds.

A block? Yeah, a few gates would probably help with your PA issues too! :-p

Good luck!

Edited October 24, 2013 by EBS_freak

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='nottswarwick' timestamp='1382604871' post='2254147']

In my view, even in a small pub, bands sound thin without that low end push that subs give, unless it is an acoustic act. I wouldn't dream of gigging without one sub at least.

[/quote]

I record pretty much all our gigs (Zoom H2 behind the bar) and we definitely have no shortage of low-end push!

A Matamp GT120 driving a Barefaced 69er fills the entire pub with rich, chocolaty goodness.

[EBS_freak]

What about the kick drum?

[nottswarwick]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1382605883' post='2254175']
What about the kick drum?
[/quote]

Yes, I'd echo this too. Kick drums un- amplified are not full or deep sounding enough to push through a full pelt back line. I know, it might seem incredible, but it is true,

My other life is as a pro drummer by the way. My first pro work was on drums, from pits to large shows, and millions of pubs, clubs and functions. So I stand by this, sorry. And whenever I am I a pub watching a full electric band with tops only, it sounds "ok" but the kick drum is light in thee mix. A bass rig can fill a room, a kick drum won't. End of story.

Edited October 24, 2013 by nottswarwick

[molan]

Quick view on Mackie stuff - if you but anything with electronics in it (power amp, powered cabs, mixer etc) and it breaks then you can head straight to the nearest tip with it.

Mackie gear is notoriously difficult to repair, I know one amp tech who pretty much refuses to even consider working on them.

A friend of mine had a powered mixer fail recently and the potential cost of repair was way more than it was worth.

I realise this can be the case with a few brands but my amp tech says Mackie is one of the worst. Maybe they have proprietary electronics in them that aren't easily replaceable

I have to add that putting PA behind the ban is asking for trouble in just about any venue. Even with mics that have a super tight pattern you're going to pick up whatever's being fired at them through those speakers.

It's fairly simple logic really - the rear speakers must be louder than the unamplified voices going into your vocal mics.

This mean that the vocal mics will undoubtedly be picking up other, potentially loud, noise from the PA = feedback loop.

Keeping the volume low and/or tuning the hell out them with a set of graphics will help but then that's going to kill your headroom and/or the sound is going to get pretty nasty.

I have used side-fills that fire across the stage at larger venues with some success but with a decent set of monitors (an area where modern tech has really improved quality) I don't think it's really necessary any more.

As others have said, I'd try setting up in a more acoustically efficient manner and re-tuning the PA to take this into account before lashing out any more money.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1382607199' post='2254188']
Quick view on Mackie stuff - if you but anything with electronics in it (power amp, powered cabs, mixer etc) and it breaks then you can head straight to the nearest tip with it.

Mackie gear is notoriously difficult to repair, I know one amp tech who pretty much refuses to even consider working on them.

A friend of mine had a powered mixer fail recently and the potential cost of repair was way more than it was worth.

I realise this can be the case with a few brands but my amp tech says Mackie is one of the worst. Maybe they have proprietary electronics in them that aren't easily replaceable

I have to add that putting PA behind the ban is asking for trouble in just about any venue. Even with mics that have a super tight pattern you're going to pick up whatever's being fired at them through those speakers.

It's fairly simple logic really - the rear speakers must be louder than the unamplified voices going into your vocal mics.

This mean that the vocal mics will undoubtedly be picking up other, potentially loud, noise from the PA = feedback loop.

Keeping the volume low and/or tuning the hell out them with a set of graphics will help but then that's going to kill your headroom and/or the sound is going to get pretty nasty.

I have used side-fills that fire across the stage at larger venues with some success but with a decent set of monitors (an area where modern tech has really improved quality) I don't think it's really necessary any more.

As others have said, I'd try setting up in a more acoustically efficient manner and re-tuning the PA to take this into account before lashing out any more money.
[/quote]

Stop trolling!

[molan]

[quote name='nottswarwick' timestamp='1382607181' post='2254187']


Yes, I'd echo this too. Kick drums un- amplified are not full or deep sounding enough to push through a full pelt back line. I know, it might seem incredible, but it is true,

My other life is as a pro drummer by the way. My first pro work was on drums, from pits to large shows, and millions of pubs, clubs and functions. So I stand by this, sorry. And whenever I am I a pub watching a full electric band with tops only, it sounds "ok" but the kick drum is light in thee mix. A bass rig can fill a room, a kick drum won't. End of story.
[/quote]

I worked as a sound engineer for a while with a really good guy who hired loads of gear and also ran large PA's for touring bands.

The first thing he ever told me was that you have to mic a kick drum for it to actually sound like a drum and not a dull thump.

Of course, after that he told me a lot more stuff - if only I could have retained his 30+ years of live sound knowledge, lol.

[nottswarwick]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1382607440' post='2254194']


The first thing he ever told me was that you have to mic a kick drum for it to actually sound like a drum and not a dull thump.

[/quote]

Yes! Well put. It is surprising given how lid a kit can sound, but it is a fact.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1382091098' post='2247712']
[size=4]I'm on the horns of a dilemma.[/size]

[font=Helvetica][size=2][size=4]We want a compact PA system for our three piece pub rock / pop band.[/size][/size][/font]

[font=Helvetica][size=2][size=4]The band consists of two affluent business owners and a professional drummer. We have the money to buy whatever we want. The three main criteria are portability, sound quality and enough volume.[/size][/size][/font]

[font=Helvetica][size=2][size=4]For the last couple of years, we have been using 2 x Roland SA-300s as a stereo PA. We use it for vocals only. Very good sound and plenty powerful for the small to medium pub scene. Have been using 3 x Behringer B205D monitors of late (which are very good).[/size][/size][/font]

[size=2][size=4][font="Helvetica"]However, the Rolands in their flight cases are bulky and heavy.[/font] [/size][/size][font=Helvetica]Time for hi-tech and portability.[/font]

[font=Helvetica][size=2][size=4]We have purchased a Bose L1 Model II cylindrical column with the big B2 bass bin and the T1 Tonematch system. This goes [i]behind[/i] the band and has a superb sound. But, even though Bose say it doesn’t – it feeds back at volume. It’s great for our quieter semi-acoustic gigs. Unbelievably easy to transport and set up. Fantastic sound quality – and our vocals improve as it sits behind us and we hear what the audience hear.[/size][/size][/font]

[font=Helvetica][size=2][size=4]We have considered getting a second one of these but we’re not 100 % convinced that just adding a second will give us enough power. I have provoked a technical discussion on the Bose L1 forum which has got me more confused. Apparently, according the main technical guru on there, we will only add 3dB of gain before feedback by adding a second unit.[/size][/size][/font]

[font=Helvetica][size=2][size=4]So, do we risk spending another £2,800 on the prospect of maybe having enough vocal volume?[/size][/size][/font]
[font=Helvetica][size=2][size=4]Or, does someone have a suggestion? Great quality sound, very portable, loud enough for pub gigs up to about 300 people, money no object.[/size][/size][/font]

[font=Helvetica][size=2][size=4]I’m all ears.[/size][/size][/font]
[/quote] yes definitely buy another one and put that behind the band too it's sure to help cut feedback!

[crez5150]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1382607440' post='2254194']
I worked as a sound engineer for a while with a really good guy who hired loads of gear and also ran large PA's for touring bands.

The first thing he ever told me was that you have to mic a kick drum for it to actually sound like a drum and not a dull thump.

Of course, after that he told me a lot more stuff - if only I could have retained his 30+ years of live sound knowledge, lol.
[/quote]

I always wonder why bands do this.... they seem to roll all the top end off a bass drum and create some wooly 'wump' sound. No definition..... let's hear some click ;o)

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1382607808' post='2254206']
yes definitely buy another one and put that behind the band too it's sure to help cut feedback!
[/quote]

What? No mention of the Behringer feedback destroyer?