nottswarwick Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 [quote name='crez5150' timestamp='1382607929' post='2254211'] I always wonder why bands do this.... they seem to roll all the top end off a bass drum and create some wooly 'wump' sound. No definition..... let's hear some click ;o) [/quote] Because they don't have ears. Best practice is to leave EQ flat and only tweak if required. Don't just twiddle knobs because they are there. Further, engage high pass filter on everything except kick drum, bass drum, poss low tom (I don't) and keys. I even go further and lower the bass frequencies on the vocal channels and guitar channels. Imaging the sound as a vertical set of shelves, upon which everything sits frequency wise. You don't want too many things on the same shelf. However, this is rambling off topic, soz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 [quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1382605883' post='2254175'] What about the kick drum? [/quote] [quote name='nottswarwick' timestamp='1382607181' post='2254187'] Yes, I'd echo this too. Kick drums un- amplified are not full or deep sounding enough to push through a full pelt back line. I know, it might seem incredible, but it is true, My other life is as a pro drummer by the way. My first pro work was on drums, from pits to large shows, and millions of pubs, clubs and functions. So I stand by this, sorry. And whenever I am I a pub watching a full electric band with tops only, it sounds "ok" but the kick drum is light in thee mix. A bass rig can fill a room, a kick drum won't. End of story. [/quote] Hey - I'm a bass player! The drummer can fight his own corner ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nottswarwick Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 [quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1382607808' post='2254206'] yes definitely buy another one and put that behind the band too it's sure to help cut feedback! [/quote] To be fair, I thought that Bose say that this rig is SUPPOSED to go behind the band? This is why I suspect the OP has it set up as such. I can't see it working for a rock band though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 [quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1382608082' post='2254216'] What? No mention of the Behringer feedback destroyer? [/quote] Oh well that's different then, as you can cut out all of the frequencies the mics are picking up placed in front of the....hang on a minute...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nottswarwick Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 [quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1382608252' post='2254220'] Hey - I'm a bass player! The drummer can fight his own corner ... [/quote] PMSL. But on a serious note, if you cannot hear him alongside your beautiful valve tone, the rhythm section will not sound as great as it might otherwise. WE ALWAYS MIC THE KICK. Full stop. Even if the only other stuff actually in the FOH is in the end vocals, the kick is alway there too. Even if slightly. Sounds sh*t otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 [quote name='nottswarwick' timestamp='1382608293' post='2254221'] To be fair, I thought that Bose say that this rig is SUPPOSED to go behind the band? This is why I suspect the OP has it set up as such. I can't see it working for a rock band though. [/quote] I can't see it working ever, sound is sound where ever it comes from surely? Maybe it's designed to go behind but not with a full band mix just like a regular bass amp? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 (edited) [quote name='nottswarwick' timestamp='1382608293' post='2254221'] To be fair, I thought that Bose say that this rig is SUPPOSED to go behind the band? This is why I suspect the OP has it set up as such. I can't see it working for a rock band though. [/quote] They are... but the laws of physics pretty much limit it to it being useful in an acoustic setup. For that, they work great. Coffee shops etc, vocals, acoustic, cajon, great... but not with a loud band. They don't give you a great deal of volume even at full pelt... and you won't get there before feedback sets in anyway. Great marketing but not so great (understatement of the year) in practice. I know, I've been there in a band that bought into the concept. I thought it was bad then and my thinking proved to be right. The best thing the OP could do is unload it, not mess around with the latest fads and buy a traditional setup that has been proven as a workable solution for many, many years. Edited October 24, 2013 by EBS_freak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 [quote name='nottswarwick' timestamp='1382608428' post='2254225'] WE ALWAYS MIC THE KICK. Full stop. [/quote] In keeping with the spirit of the thread, I hope you put a big front of house speaker in front of it too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nottswarwick Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 [quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1382608755' post='2254235'] Great marketing but not so great (understatement of the year) in practice. I know, I've been there in a band that bought into the concept. I thought it was bad then and my thinking proved to be right. The best thing the OP could do is unload it, not mess around with the latest fads and buy a tranditional setup that has been proven as a workable solution for many, many years. [/quote] Yes. In a duo I play in, just 2 acoustics, and vox, we sometimes setup up our active tops behind us, to save the need for a monitor on the floor. It works in quieter settings, but that is all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crez5150 Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 (edited) The problem with the Bose system is that it was original designed for their pro-sound core market which is Hotelier trade. It was designed as a speech reinforcement unit for conference rooms and alike..... Then decided to market it into the mi arena.... I've heard it work well with acoustic acts but it's never gonna compete in a real life band situation Edited October 24, 2013 by crez5150 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 [quote name='crez5150' timestamp='1382609411' post='2254244'] The problem with the Bose system is that it was original designed for their pro-sound core market which is Hotelier trade. It was designed as a speech reinforcement unit for conference rooms and alike..... Then decided to market it into the mi arena.... I've heard it work well with acoustic acts but it's never gonna compete in a real life band situation [/quote] Exactly this. If you want old school Bose, get some cheapy cabs, turn them on their side and attach a couple of bog rolls to the front. Job done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 [quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1382609520' post='2254247'] Exactly this. If you want old school Bose, get some cheapy cabs, turn them on their side and attach a couple of bog rolls to the front. Job done. [/quote] There is no need to bring barefaced into this! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nottswarwick Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 [quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1382610225' post='2254261'] There is no need to bring barefaced into this! [/quote] Harsh and unfair. But I lol'd. Haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toasted Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 [quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1382610225' post='2254261'] There is no need to bring barefaced into this! [/quote] [IMG]http://i987.photobucket.com/albums/ae359/SteelersFreak1/FatboyReaction.gif[/IMG] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassace Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 (edited) [quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1382570442' post='2253942'] Well, "just saying" EBS freak that I have been setting up PAs in band for a long time. At least every other week for the last couple years. And for a long time before that. So, I guess I know what to do - so I have much more than basic skills and rudimentary knowledge. But thanks for your kind advice! [/quote] So you have more than basic skills and rudimentary knowledge, so why are you asking us for advice - or is it to let us know how amazingly wealthy you are? - How rude! Edited October 24, 2013 by bassace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 [quote name='bassace' timestamp='1382611507' post='2254285'] So you have more than basic skills and rudimentary knowledge, so why are you asking us for advice - or is it to let us know how amazingly wealthy you are? - How rude! [/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 Two comments: 1. If you're only putting vocals through the PA you really don't need subs and if you're using mics on vocals you should use highpass filtering to remove the unnatural added bottom end from the proximity effect and to remove air noise thumps, which both sound bad and waste system headroom thus increasing distortion. 2. I really like unamplified kick drums but you need a drummer with a sufficiently heavy right foot and a kick drum which is both large enough, tuned correctly for live acoustic use (rather than studio/miked use) and damped correctly likewise (much less damping that most use nowadays) or it won't be loud enough to balance with the band (plus a lot of drummers can't balance their kick/snare relative levels unless they're miked). My last drummer had two kits, one with a 22" kick for smaller venues or miked situations and one with a 26" kick which was SO much louder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 [quote name='nottswarwick' timestamp='1382608428' post='2254225'] PMSL. But on a serious note, if you cannot hear him alongside your beautiful valve tone, the rhythm section will not sound as great as it might otherwise. WE ALWAYS MIC THE KICK. Full stop. Even if the only other stuff actually in the FOH is in the end vocals, the kick is alway there too. Even if slightly. Sounds sh*t otherwise. [/quote] In all seriousness, noted and already relayed to band-leader (who, you may be surprised to learn, is not actually me ) along with comments about HPF etc. As I said to him in my email, we have the technology to do all this stuff but some things we just don't bother with. Maybe we should. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 [quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1382611946' post='2254295'] ... you need a drummer with a sufficiently heavy right foot ... [/quote] This is not a problem for us ... no, really it's not, I promise you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 [quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1382612136' post='2254302'] In all seriousness, noted and already relayed to band-leader (who, you may be surprised to learn, is not actually me ) along with comments about HPF etc. As I said to him in my email, we have the technology to do all this stuff but some things we just don't bother with. Maybe we should. [/quote] At least some good is going to come out of this thread then! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nottswarwick Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 Yep, my kick is tuned low, ie lowest viable head tension. And a small flat sheet just touching the bottom of both heads. It sounds massive. It's a Premier Genista from the 90s, really heavy birch, one of the finest bass drums (in fact kits) I've owned, and I've played them all over the years. I still mic it up though, using a Shure Beta 52. Sounds H U G E. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nottswarwick Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 Trouble with a heavy right foot is that the drum loses finesse. Better to play at medium and varying volumes, play it like a proper instrument, allow the beater to bounce off the head. Way more musical in feel and sound. A lot of drummers don't or can't do this. It's something I teach. So, mic it up. Way off topic though. Lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 [quote name='nottswarwick' timestamp='1382612282' post='2254309'] I still mic it up though, using a Shure Beta 52. Sounds H U G E. [/quote] Exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 (edited) [quote name='nottswarwick' timestamp='1382612436' post='2254312'] Trouble with a heavy right foot is that the drum loses finesse. Better to play at medium and varying volumes, play it like a proper instrument, allow the beater to bounce off the head. Way more musical in feel and sound. A lot of drummers don't or can't do this. It's something I teach. So, mic it up. Way off topic though. Lol [/quote] I was going to mention this. Smacking seven shades of sh1t out of your bass drum got to have an impact on what you can play... let the amplification do the work. Micing a kit even in a small venue has it's advantages. What's the point of that splash if you can't hear it? Mic it up. In fact, scrap all those ideas. Tell your singer to forget the mic and shout louder. Edited October 24, 2013 by EBS_freak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dark Lord Posted October 24, 2013 Author Share Posted October 24, 2013 [quote name='nottswarwick' timestamp='1382608293' post='2254221'] To be fair, I thought that Bose say that this rig is SUPPOSED to go behind the band? This is why I suspect the OP has it set up as such. I can't see it working for a rock band though. [/quote] Yeah, this is the problem. I am fully aware that it is unconventional (daft even) to contemplate placing a PA behind the band. It goes against all logic - you're bound to get feedback right? However, Bose do this L1 product which is actually DESIGNED to go behind the band. They claim all sorts of clever electronics stop it from feeding back. The upside to this, is that the band gets to hear the PA, exactly as the audience hears it. Great. I spent about £3k on one and it has been superb for our quieter gigs where the drummer uses brushes or hot rods and we (the bassist and guitarist) use amplified acoustics or just very quiet electrics. I was told by the tech guys at Bose, that it should be fine for a small rock setting too .... but it isn't. It's not loud enough. I mean, it might be. The Bose guys tell me that if I set it up perfectly to each venue, then it'll have plenty of volume and no feedback. Now, I've tried all the settings they say and it sorta works, but is not 100% reliable. So, my thought was to get another one - then I'd have enough volume before the feedback cuts in. We have tried two of them (we borrowed on of the Model 1s from a dealer) - but we got the same problem. I have again been assured by the Bose guys that, with the right tweaking this will be fine. I'm sure they are right, but, to be honest, I figured there must be an easier way to go compact. We just don't have the time and inclination to do so much set up before each gig. The Mackie DLM units seem a good option to me. It'll will also give us the option of putting more via the PA if we want to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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