The Most Overpriced Bass

[ezbass]

[quote name='Ziphoblat' timestamp='1382330838' post='2250632']


So how about a Lakland? Mass produced in Asia instead of the USA, shoved in a sh*t gig-bag with nothing in it
[/quote]Mine didn't even come with one! The shop were going to give me one but I opted for a discounted Protection Racket one instead. In it's defence it is way better than any of the new US Fender Ps or Js I've owned, but they did come with cases.

[Dingus]

[quote name='Ziphoblat' timestamp='1382330838' post='2250632']
So how about a Lakland? Mass produced in Asia instead of the USA, shoved in a sh*t gig-bag with nothing in it, same price. But I suppose it isn't as cool to bash a bass that isn't made by Fender.

Not to single Lakland out, there are plenty of other companies that are the same, the mind just boggles at how regularly Fender get singled out for their prices when you look at the number of companies selling Asian made products in crap cases for the same price, if not more at times.
[/quote]

Lakland Skylines stopped shipping with gigbags a few years ago now to try and keep the prices down .

I suppose the justification for the prices ( and the whole reason for the existance of) of Lakland Skyline basses is that they are a budget version of a much more expensive bass i.e a U.S.A-made Lakland . Only the basic assembley of the neck and body is done in Asia , with all the rest of the electronics and fretwork being done in Chicago , so they are not to be dismissed as being made in the Far East and therefor a rip off . They also ( except for the very cheapest models ) have the same pickups and electronics as the U.S.A models which are much more upmarket and expensive than regular U.S.A Fenders . If you understand that U.S.A Laklands are the equivalent of Master Built Custom Shop Fenders then , in light of that, it's not unreasonable to price the Skylines at the point they sell for . There are many happy Skyline owners who sing the praises of their basses and who choose them over a U.S.A Fender.

I think the current U.S.A Fenders are very good and I like them a lot ( I love Fender basses , so I'm more than a bit prejudiced) but the Skylines were a major factor in forcing Fender to up their game and improve their designs post-2008 . The Laklands are a viable alternative to U.S.A Fenders , and some might say they are even a viable alternative to U.S.A Laklands , given how good the sound and playabiity can be on a good Skyline.

Edited October 21, 2013 by Dingus

[fretmeister]

[quote name='Spike Vincent' timestamp='1382182085' post='2248970']
My answer to the original question is US Fenders. How they can justify such a comparatively high price for a factory mass produced instrument is beyond me.
[/quote]

+1

I have a CIJ that I bought in from Japan for about £450 including shipping and taxes and it's by far the nicest Fender Precision I've ever played. I feel zero improvement when moving from that to a US Standard model.

[Ziphoblat]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1382376168' post='2251436']
Lakland Skylines stopped shipping with gigbags a few years ago now to try and keep the prices down .

I suppose the justification for the prices ( and the whole reason for the existance of) of Lakland Skyline basses is that they are a budget version of a much more expensive bass i.e a U.S.A-made Lakland . Only the basic assembley of the neck and body is done in Asia , with all the rest of the electronics and fretwork being done in Chicago , so they are not to be dismissed as being made in the Far East and therefor a rip off . They also ( except for the very cheapest models ) have the same pickups and electronics as the U.S.A models which are much more upmarket and expensive than regular U.S.A Fenders . If you understand that U.S.A Laklands are the equivalent of Master Built Custom Shop Fenders then , in light of that, it's not unreasonable to price the Skylines at the point they sell for . There are many happy Skyline owners who sing the praises of their basses and who choose them over a U.S.A Fender.

I think the current U.S.A Fenders are very good and I like them a lot ( I love Fender basses , so I'm more than a bit prejudiced) but the Skylines were a major factor in forcing Fender to up their game and improve their designs post-2008 . The Laklands are a viable alternative to U.S.A Fenders , and some might say they are even a viable alternative to U.S.A Laklands , given how good the sound and playabiity can be on a good Skyline.
[/quote]

I don't dispute the value of Laklands. They were just an example, I could list plenty of other brands. Warwick would be a good one. I've seen some pretty shoddy examples of QC on the Skyline models; now I'm sure that's an exception, and if you get a good one then it's a damn good bass, but really the same applies to Fender. Except it's made in the USA, and comes in a great case which is itself worth £150. Fender just seem to get targeted for this a lot and I really can't understand why as there are plenty of other brands that offer instruments which are equal or worse (on paper here, which is of course all we can refer to for a discussion like this) for the same price.

[Dingus]

[quote name='Ziphoblat' timestamp='1382392146' post='2251731']
I don't dispute the value of Laklands. They were just an example, I could list plenty of other brands. Warwick would be a good one. I've seen some pretty shoddy examples of QC on the Skyline models; now I'm sure that's an exception, and if you get a good one then it's a damn good bass, but really the same applies to Fender. Except it's made in the USA, and comes in a great case which is itself worth £150. Fender just seem to get targeted for this a lot and I really can't understand why as there are plenty of other brands that offer instruments which are equal or worse (on paper here, which is of course all we can refer to for a discussion like this) for the same price.
[/quote]

You are right on all these points. The plain truth is that most bass makers talk a good game when it comes to the quality of their products, but in reality how many brands can you think of where you are confident of getting a good example in the case of every instrument ? Ernie Ball Musicman are pretty good in that respect, , as are Warwick , but there are still plenty of duds . Fender are hit and miss , and so are most of the others .

I suppose with the value for money stakes between Fender and Lakland Skyline , with the Fender you get a nice case , but the Laklands are PLEKKED and have arguably superior hardware , pickups and electronics, so potential buyers have to weigh that up and make a choice . I like both , so it's hard for me to come down on either side of the fence .

[Gust0o]

Fair comment, I think. From my playing, I'd take my Skyline DJ4 over an MIA Jazz any day; subjectively, sure, I'd call it good value.

Mine came from Molan, too boot.

[Lowender]

To Sibob....


Nope . Not it at all. I missed you misunderstood the whole point. This is why I brought it up. To hopefully help others who fall into the same trap.

Let me try again.

Fodera's FEEL great -- very solid. But it's a bit of an illusion. One can make the comparison to a very EQ'd pre-amp. They may sound louder and sweeter but after a while you might start to hear a falseness to it. It's the same thing with the feel of a lot of these boutique basses. That "solidity " seems attractive for a while, but it can also be a bit stiff for some things.

Fodera's also have a lot of sustain, but again, that isn't always preferable, yet at first it seems appealing. This is more the case with the more expensive neck-through basses. Oddly enough, Joey Fodera plays a bolt on. He says he prefers the sound. Funny how the guy who actually makes the specialty instruments prefers a less expensive version.

As for the Fodera sound, they have a nice clean tone, but one that doesn't cut through a band or a recoding especially well. I think this is the reason they aren't embraced by a lot of recording artists. I always knew this but didn't want to fully accept it. After a while, I got tired of defending what was SUPPOSED to be a magnificent instrument. The one client who wasn't happy with the sound was simply representative of what I've been feeling. And the fact thjat it was totally unbiased confirmed what i've felt for a long time. Fodera's are a bit toneless. I don;t know if it's the combination of woods, or the design or the lack of finish. With 3 different pups, it was still weak and lacking in character. For me.

MAYBE, if it were a cheapo instrument I'd keep it around for things that required a certain feel for which it worked well. But for the price of a piano, I thought it better off in someone else's hands.

Edited October 22, 2013 by Lowender

[Lowender]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1382309600' post='2250576']
Foderas come with amazing, lovingly hand-crafted, finishes.



[/quote]

And what is that finish? Oil? They are not poly or nitro or any kind of gloss lacquer. That's all I meant.

And I agree about the Laklands. Fender copies at twice the price.

Edited October 22, 2013 by Lowender

[Black Coffee]

At the minute every bass I look at is overpriced because I can't afford what I want.
As for fodera I was offered one a while ago before I bought my mike lull but I was hesitant because I didn't know if it was out of my league and I'd look stupid playing a bass like that as badly as I do.
But. I played a fender made in China jaguar at lunchtime today and nearly bought it until I thought about all the impulse buys that crashed and burned in the past. It knocked lumps bumps and spots off the p and j mim hanging beside them at 200 quid more.
All depends on expectation, the setup of the bass, the amp and the sound you want to hear.
Why spend 5000 quid on a bass though to get a p and a j sound when you can spend 1500 quid on two real USA basses. A precision and a jazz.....? I am guilty of this previously so I am merely lamenting my own stupidity here not pickin a fight with anyone.
I'm gonna sell my mike lull tc5 and buy the jaguar. Anybody want a cheap TC5 ?

Edited October 22, 2013 by bassman344

[crez5150]

[quote name='Ghost_Bass' timestamp='1382352114' post='2250896']
Am i allowed to use the word "Rickenbacker"...
[/quote]

The op said Bass......]

[Lowender]

[quote name='crez5150' timestamp='1382456303' post='2252371']
The op said Bass......]
[/quote]

LOL!!! Harsh, but funny!

They are their own animal. I like them for what they are, but not as a main instrument.

[Ziphoblat]

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1382453945' post='2252331']Fodera's also have a lot of sustain, but again, that isn't always preferable, yet at first it seems appealing. This is more the case with the more expensive neck-through basses. Oddly enough, Joey Fodera plays a bolt on. He says he prefers the sound. Funny how the guy who actually makes the specialty instruments prefers a less expensive version.[/quote]

True, but neck-through/bolt-on is a preference thing. I too prefer bolt-on, but I can see why somebody would prefer neck-through. I don't think they're advertising the neck-through as being a "better" instrument though, it's simply a choice you can make which requires more work and labour to produce, hence the increased price tag. A manufacturer might charge extra for a matching headstock, not because it's a better instrument, but because the process of doing so costs them more money, so if that's your preference you'll have to pay for it.

[Lowender]

[quote name='Ziphoblat' timestamp='1382471352' post='2252649']
True, but neck-through/bolt-on is a preference thing. I too prefer bolt-on, but I can see why somebody would prefer neck-through. I don't think they're advertising the neck-through as being a "better" instrument though, it's simply a choice you can make which requires more work and labour to produce, hence the increased price tag. A manufacturer might charge extra for a matching headstock, not because it's a better instrument, but because the process of doing so costs them more money, so if that's your preference you'll have to pay for it.
[/quote]

True.

[molan]

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1382454522' post='2252340']


And what is that finish? Oil? They are not poly or nitro or any kind of gloss lacquer. That's all I meant.
.
[/quote]

It's a catalyzed acrylic lacquer. Each instrument receives between 10 and 15 coats of glossy finish. They are hand rubbed roughly every 3-4 coats or so. Once the finish is determined to be thick enough they do a final rub out with a succession of finer grade sand paper and pads culminating in a coat of wax that is applied with 0000 Steel Wool.

They do not use any wood filler or grain sealer.

I think this puts them a few leagues above a cheap thick coat of glossy poly that some people use to hide the wood and build quality

[molan]

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1382453945' post='2252331']

Let me try again.

Fodera's FEEL great -- very solid. But it's a bit of an illusion. One can make the comparison to a very EQ'd pre-amp. They may sound louder and sweeter but after a while you might start to hear a falseness to it. It's the same thing with the feel of a lot of these boutique basses. That "solidity " seems attractive for a while, but it can also be a bit stiff for some things.

Fodera's also have a lot of sustain, but again, that isn't always preferable, yet at first it seems appealing. This is more the case with the more expensive neck-through basses. Oddly enough, Joey Fodera plays a bolt on. He says he prefers the sound. Funny how the guy who actually makes the specialty instruments prefers a less expensive version.

As for the Fodera sound, they have a nice clean tone, but one that doesn't cut through a band or a recoding especially well. I think this is the reason they aren't embraced by a lot of recording artists. I always knew this but didn't want to fully accept it. After a while, I got tired of defending what was SUPPOSED to be a magnificent instrument. The one client who wasn't happy with the sound was simply representative of what I've been feeling. And the fact thjat it was totally unbiased confirmed what i've felt for a long time. Fodera's are a bit toneless. I don;t know if it's the combination of woods, or the design or the lack of finish. With 3 different pups, it was still weak and lacking in character. For me.

[/quote]

I think the 'for me' is the most significant part of this post.

I couldn't disagree more with the rest of it.

I gigged a Fodera for years in a soul functions band and it was possibly the best tone I've ever had in a band situation. Able to sit perfectly in the mix and bags of tonal variation that allowed me to cover dirty funk, classic soul and more modern pop with ease.

I recently sold it to a top session player who covers mostly jazz, funk and Latin and it can handle those genres just as easily.

Sure Foderas cost a lot of money but all these top session guys don't buy them because they look pretty or so they can show off down the dog and duck.

They buy them because they have the potential to sound fantastic in the right hands

[Lowender]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1382477887' post='2252772']
I think the 'for me' is the most significant part of this post.

I couldn't disagree more with the rest of it.

I gigged a Fodera for years in a soul functions band and it was possibly the best tone I've ever had in a band situation. Able to sit perfectly in the mix and bags of tonal variation that allowed me to cover dirty funk, classic soul and more modern pop with ease.

I recently sold it to a top session player who covers mostly jazz, funk and Latin and it can handle those genres just as easily.

Sure Foderas cost a lot of money but all these top session guys don't buy them because they look pretty or so they can show off down the dog and duck.

They buy them because they have the potential to sound fantastic in the right hands
[/quote]

That must be it. I have the wrong hands.

[CPBass]

[quote name='bassman344' timestamp='1382456077' post='2252364']
At the minute every bass I look at is overpriced because I can't afford what I want.
As for fodera I was offered one a while ago before I bought my mike lull but I was hesitant because I didn't know if it was out of my league and I'd look stupid playing a bass like that as badly as I do.
But. I played a fender made in China jaguar at lunchtime today and nearly bought it until I thought about all the impulse buys that crashed and burned in the past. It knocked lumps bumps and spots off the p and j mim hanging beside them at 200 quid more.
All depends on expectation, the setup of the bass, the amp and the sound you want to hear.
Why spend 5000 quid on a bass though to get a p and a j sound when you can spend 1500 quid on two real USA basses. A precision and a jazz.....? I am guilty of this previously so I am merely lamenting my own stupidity here not pickin a fight with anyone.
I'm gonna sell my mike lull tc5 and buy the jaguar. Anybody want a cheap TC5 ?
[/quote]

Trade???

[Budbear]

In my humble opinion (as humble as we New Yorkers are with our opinions), the only overpriced basses are the ones that don't sell. You see them on the shop walls, dusty, poorly set up, with dead strings, priced reduced several times, and yet, not cheap enough for someone to buy. People will buy most anything if the price is right. I'm involved in the retail end of the industry and that's the reality of MI sales.

Just a word about Fodera. The price list linked to above is mostly suggested retail, not selling prices. Dealers give discounts. Nonetheless, they are expensive.
I know Vinnie and Joey personally, and, in fact, am quite friendly with Joey (BTW, his last name is Lauricella, not Fodera. That's Vinnie's name) so I may be a bit biased. I live 15 min. from the Fodera workshop in Brooklyn. All their instruments are handmade, with immense care & meticulous craftsmanship. All their components are top quality. It's a small business, but they treat their employees well with a fair wage and excellent benefits and great respect. No one in that shop is getting rich. They all live in middle income, working class neighborhoods. Overhead is high in NYC. Customer service is extraordinary, and every customer that goes to the shop gets either Vinnie or Joey's personal attention and time. All that stuff costs money. Every customer is treated alike and well, whether your name is Victor Wooten or Joe Schmoe. Nobody gets a *star* endorsement deal. The margin is too slim for that even if they had that mindset.
They may or may not be your cup of tea, but there is no denying their quality and, seeing as how well their resale prices hold up and how quickly they're snapped up when flipped, their value. I have played several but I don't own one, not because I think they aren't worth it, but because I don't play out nearly enough anymore to justify such an expense even at dealer's cost. Although, you never can tell. I just might sell off most of my collection someday and use that to get a custom Monarch made to my specs and cross that off my bucket list.

Last words: Play what you like. If it makes you happy, it was worth whatever you paid for it. Be groovy to each other.

[Thunderbird]

[quote name='Budbear' timestamp='1382495631' post='2252875']
In my humble opinion (as humble as we New Yorkers are with our opinions), the only overpriced basses are the ones that don't sell. You see them on the shop walls, dusty, poorly set up, with dead strings, priced reduced several times, and yet, not cheap enough for someone to buy. People will buy most anything if the price is right. I'm involved in the retail end of the industry and that's the reality of MI sales.

Just a word about Fodera. The price list linked to above is mostly suggested retail, not selling prices. Dealers give discounts. Nonetheless, they are expensive.
I know Vinnie and Joey personally, and, in fact, am quite friendly with Joey (BTW, his last name is Lauricella, not Fodera. That's Vinnie's name) so I may be a bit biased. I live 15 min. from the Fodera workshop in Brooklyn. All their instruments are handmade, with immense care & meticulous craftsmanship. All their components are top quality. It's a small business, but they treat their employees well with a fair wage and excellent benefits and great respect. No one in that shop is getting rich. They all live in middle income, working class neighborhoods. Overhead is high in NYC. Customer service is extraordinary, and every customer that goes to the shop gets either Vinnie or Joey's personal attention and time. All that stuff costs money. Every customer is treated alike and well, whether your name is Victor Wooten or Joe Schmoe. Nobody gets a *star* endorsement deal. The margin is too slim for that even if they had that mindset.
They may or may not be your cup of tea, but there is no denying their quality and, seeing as how well their resale prices hold up and how quickly they're snapped up when flipped, their value. I have played several but I don't own one, not because I think they aren't worth it, but because I don't play out nearly enough anymore to justify such an expense even at dealer's cost. Although, you never can tell. I just might sell off most of my collection someday and use that to get a custom Monarch made to my specs and cross that off my bucket list.

Last words: Play what you like. If it makes you happy, it was worth whatever you paid for it. Be groovy to each other.
[/quote] Very well written post +1

[skej21]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1382477887' post='2252772']


I think the 'for me' is the most significant part of this post.

I couldn't disagree more with the rest of it.

I gigged a Fodera for years in a soul functions band and it was possibly the best tone I've ever had in a band situation. Able to sit perfectly in the mix and bags of tonal variation that allowed me to cover dirty funk, classic soul and more modern pop with ease.

I recently sold it to a top session player who covers mostly jazz, funk and Latin and it can handle those genres just as easily.

Sure Foderas cost a lot of money but all these top session guys don't buy them because they look pretty or so they can show off down the dog and duck.

They buy them because they have the potential to sound fantastic in the right hands
[/quote]

Couldn't agree more. Every Fodera I've heard and played has been great and perfectly suited for a variety of musical settings

Personally, I think some people have very poorly managed expectations when it comes to Foderas (and other expensive basses), usually down to a lack of research. They somehow expect that by spending a relatively large sum of money on the instrument, it will result in a bass that sounds exactly like the sound in their head... But then do nothing to help communicate that sound to the builder. A prime example was my guitarist's friend, who thought if he just bought an expensive Suhr it would his dream guitar, simply because it was expensive!

IMO, if you're buying an instrument like a Fodera you should put as much time and dedication into the research of how you want it to sound as they put into bringing that vision to life for you. If you don't, you cannot then complain retrospectively that the instrument wasn't right for you because of X, Y and Z because that is down to your lack of input. The people making high end basses might charge a lot and they can do many things but reading your mind is not one of them!

[Karnage]

I have to disagree on US fenders being overpriced, they hold their value way too well for this to be the case. They also age their wood far better than most, especially when compared to many far eastern made instruments.

If any bass retains it's value well compared to the competition in its price bracket, it can't be that overpriced as you can own one and pass it on for little cost to you. When you lose a load of money selling on a bass, you've paid too much for it.

Obviously if you love it and don't sell it on you haven't lost any money IMO!

[Lowender]

[quote name='Budbear' timestamp='1382495631' post='2252875']
In my humble opinion (as humble as we New Yorkers are with our opinions), the only overpriced basses are the ones that don't sell. You see them on the shop walls, dusty, poorly set up, with dead strings, priced reduced several times, and yet, not cheap enough for someone to buy. People will buy most anything if the price is right. I'm involved in the retail end of the industry and that's the reality of MI sales.

Just a word about Fodera. The price list linked to above is mostly suggested retail, not selling prices. Dealers give discounts. Nonetheless, they are expensive.
I know Vinnie and Joey personally, and, in fact, am quite friendly with Joey (BTW, his last name is Lauricella, not Fodera. That's Vinnie's name) so I may be a bit biased. I live 15 min. from the Fodera workshop in Brooklyn. All their instruments are handmade, with immense care & meticulous craftsmanship. All their components are top quality. It's a small business, but they treat their employees well with a fair wage and excellent benefits and great respect. No one in that shop is getting rich. They all live in middle income, working class neighborhoods. Overhead is high in NYC. Customer service is extraordinary, and every customer that goes to the shop gets either Vinnie or Joey's personal attention and time. All that stuff costs money. Every customer is treated alike and well, whether your name is Victor Wooten or Joe Schmoe. Nobody gets a *star* endorsement deal. The margin is too slim for that even if they had that mindset.
They may or may not be your cup of tea, but there is no denying their quality and, seeing as how well their resale prices hold up and how quickly they're snapped up when flipped, their value. I have played several but I don't own one, not because I think they aren't worth it, but because I don't play out nearly enough anymore to justify such an expense even at dealer's cost. Although, you never can tell. I just might sell off most of my collection someday and use that to get a custom Monarch made to my specs and cross that off my bucket list.

Last words: Play what you like. If it makes you happy, it was worth whatever you paid for it. Be groovy to each other.
[/quote]

I agree with everything said. Good people. Meticulous attention to detain. Fine instruments. High overhead. But that's the rub.

I think this puts in in perspective.

I was recently shopping for a sofa and found a nice on at a very trendy shop in an expensive part of town. Lots of personable attention with knowledgable salespeople. They served tea and crumpets while you peruse the store. The sofa cost 1200 quid. Then I went on line -- saw the same exact sofa (they even used the same picture). 400 quid.

Moral of the story. I understand that privately businesses have higher overhead. I just don't want to be the one to pay for it.

Edited October 23, 2013 by Lowender

[molan]

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1382539779' post='2253396']


I agree with everything said. Good people. Meticulous attention to detain. Fine instruments. High overhead. But that's the rub.

I think this puts in in perspective.

I was recently shopping for a sofa and found a nice on at a very trendy shop in an expensive part of town. Lots of personable attention with knowledgable salespeople. They served tea and crumpets while you peruse the store. The sofa cost 1200 quid. Then I went on line -- saw the same exact sofa (they even used the same picture). 400 quid.

Moral of the story. I understand that privately businesses have higher overhead. I just don't want to one the one to pay for it.
[/quote]

I can't see how this has even the remotest connection to buying a custom built bass?

You can't pop online and buy one for a third of the price.

In fact I'm not even sure you can do that with any bass, whether it's a £10K Fodera or a £500 Fender?

[Roland Rock]

I think the point was that a chunk of your money is going towards expensive NY rent and wages.

[molan]

[quote name='Roland Rock' timestamp='1382542904' post='2253449']
I think the point was that a chunk of your money is going towards expensive NY rent and wages.
[/quote]

But there's only one place in the world that they're made. Does that mean they should move to the middle of nowhere to reduce pricing? Or maybe outsource to China?

I don't think you can compare a mass market product that's available in multi-locations with corresponding multiple price points to a custom built bass guitar that's only available from one place.

Maybe we should be trying to work out what is over-priced relative to geographical location costs and overheads.

Gut feel is it's probably the bottom end of the market where the greatest over-pricing is happening on mass produced, machine made, instruments and not the top where the man hours per bass are huge because of the labour intensive construction and attention to detail that's involved