Be honest now

[norvegicusbass]

[quote name='jakenewmanbass' timestamp='1382295182' post='2250310']
This is an interesting answer because I think it's what's true in most situations.

I have three thoughts on this:
1. in this discussion there is massive incidence of the blind leading the blind.
2. If you are playing things from your own musical imagination there is theory that expresses it in a written communicable form [i]Whether you like it or not fellas. [/i]Just because you are not thinking in theoretical terms (which is perfectly fine) does not mean there is no theory at play.
3. People that are both musical and theoretically able will be at a bassline in around a 100th of the time that a noodler will take which is what makes me able to go on a gig or recording session with people I've never met and read chord charts to come up with a bass part on the spot.

I did this session with one rehearsal and chord charts so when I recorded the song it was the 2nd or 3rd time I'd played it:

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/220192-new-artist-video/page__pid__2249848#entry2249848"]http://basschat.co.u...48#entry2249848[/url]
[/quote] Really? A hundredth of the time?

[discreet]

[quote name='jakenewmanbass' timestamp='1382295182' post='2250310']
...in this discussion there is massive incidence of the blind leading the blind.
[/quote]

In Essex it's the blonde leading the blonde. Same result.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='norvegicusbass' timestamp='1382295835' post='2250339']
Really? A hundredth of the time?
[/quote]
Maybe a tad facetious but I can play a recordable bassline from a chord chart first take... Honestly, it's what I do for a living.
So I reckon there will be times where my maths are correct.

Edit: but apparently not my english because it should be 'Maths [i]is [/i]correct'

Edited October 20, 2013 by jakenewmanbass

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='norvegicusbass' timestamp='1382295835' post='2250339']
Really? A hundredth of the time?
[/quote]
You haven't been to one of my band's rehearsals have you?

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1382295955' post='2250345']
You haven't been to one of my band's rehearsals have you?
[/quote]

like my early life... I remember!

[ambient]

Imagine you're a singer or guitarist or both, or whatever, and your band is looking for a new bass player. Your old one has left and you have an absolutely vitally important showcase gig coming up in 2 days time, but you only have one rehearsal.

Wouldn't it be great if you the band could say to the bassist, well the tune starts with a Bb minor pentatonic, the chords in the verse are Bbm7/Ebm7 etc, etc, the chorus is this and so on and so on.......

And wouldn't it be great if the bass player new exactly what you were on about ?

Wouldn't it be even more brilliant if you could write out the bass lines for him or her from your demo, and present them in standard notation ? He or she could just play them off at the rehearsal and you'd all be very happy.

Or shall we all just stick with not actually knowing what we're doing, or maybe just have an idea here or there and maybe come up with something good, and maybe not .

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='jakenewmanbass' timestamp='1382295182' post='2250310']
This is an interesting answer because I think it's what's true in most situations.

2. If you are playing things from your own musical imagination there is theory that expresses it in a written communicable form [i]Whether you like it or not fellas. [/i]Just because you are not thinking in theoretical terms (which is perfectly fine) does not mean there is no theory at play.
[/quote]

Absolutely. Of course there's theory behind it - I'm just not thinking of it from a theoretical standpoint.

[norvegicusbass]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1382296857' post='2250362']
Absolutely. Of course there's theory behind it - I'm just not thinking of it from a theoretical standpoint.
[/quote]
wateroftyne where in Newcastle are you?

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1382296857' post='2250362']
Absolutely. Of course there's theory behind it - I'm just not thinking of it from a theoretical standpoint.
[/quote]
Indeed, that was my point, which is why i said your answer was an interesting one, I've seen some of your vids and consider you to be a very natural, good bass player. And I also think if you were aware of the theory (I'm not saying you aren't btw) behind what you were playing you'd remain those things. Knowing the theory would not take anything away from you as a player... It might however enhance certain areas, and we all could use a little enhancement huh
I think most instinctive musicians just forget rules and just play music when in the moment, but the theory still exists.

Edited October 20, 2013 by jakenewmanbass

[BigRedX]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1382296857' post='2250362']
Absolutely. Of course there's theory behind it - I'm just not thinking of it from a theoretical standpoint.
[/quote]

This. Completely and utterly.

[BassTractor]

I get the impression that this thread better than we've had before pinpoints what one is talking about here, with "theory" existing as a backdrop even if one doesn't explicitly think in theoretical terms, and with delightfully little (or none) of this "You theorists only follow some rules. I however am free!" bollocks.

My take is the same, I think: Man has developed musical sensitivities through the ages, and one slowly has reached a level of agreeing on how stuff by large works on the human ear.
Normal, tradional theory, in my mind is just a reflection of some shared and agreed-on insights about how the overtone spectrum governs what the human ear likes, and how the human ear likes it.

Since music is all around us, and our ears thusly are trained all the time, in my mind we're rather musical people, and I think I see this confirmed when so many people love for example Pink Floyd, The Beatles or Queen - artists who do not belong in the realm of the most unmusical music there is.



The following may be too local for Brits to get a good impression of it, but I'll take the chance, as I think it exemplifies this more:

A popular and simple style of music here in Norway and in Sweden is what is called "dansband" (dance band as it were). It's not about cover versions of popular music, but small orchestras playing their own songs with a strong and recognisable 4/4 beat and very simple lyrics, melodies and chord structures. Nothing there to expand one's brain by. "Modulation" for example is often achieved by simply repeating the same structure in the new key.

Now, in this setting, the most popular band by far is the one that IMNSHO is the most professional in musical terms. Their songs float like a piece by Mendelssohn, and these songs are flawless if one analyses them with classical theory in mind. Simple, mind, but flawless in the light of what they try to achieve.

Gazillions of other bands exist in these circles and with this specific musical style. What most of them share is a lack of success AND compositions that are as leaky as a house without a roof.

This, to me, is a great example of my notion that people are not unmusical, and do indeed take part in this shared knowledge base - also on this simple level.


So yes, theory is there, even if you're not aware or think you don't use it. Each musical choice is a choice that in some way comments on or reflects our shared experience.


One of the things that make Swedish prog band "von Zamla" so exciting to me, is their strong sense about exactly how much they can break conventional rules without landing in chaos. Their music tickles and amuses, and IMO is deeply musical at the same time.
They confirm the rules by defying them - or rather: defying is probably the wrong word here. How about "bending the rules"?
(If by any chance you're interested, look up Samla Mammas Manna / Zamla Mammaz Manna / von Zamla. They're essentially the same band under three different names.)

Edited October 20, 2013 by BassTractor

[jakenewmanbass]

That's right Basstractor, the conversation so often goes along the lines of people thinking they play without theory existing in their universe, when in truth if they are playing something as simple as root notes for every chord then the theory is just that, that the bass part consists of root notes for each chord, and Ironically, if it weren't for the existence of theory I would really struggle to get that sentiment across to you on a forum that uses words as the means of communication, as that's the only means I have of describing the information.

[mtroun]

[quote name='BassTractor' timestamp='1382299963' post='2250437']
One of the things that make Swedish prog band "von Zamla" so exciting to me, is their strong sense about exactly how much they can break conventional rules without landing in chaos. Their music tickles and amuses, and IMO is deeply musical at the same time.
They confirm the rules by defying them - or rather: defying is probably the wrong word here. How about "bending the rules"?
(If by any chance you're interested, look up Samla Mammas Manna / Zamla Mammaz Manna / von Zamla. They're essentially the same band under three different names.)
[/quote]

Apart from the whole point of the rules is that they can be bent. That's the entire history of classical music, right there, particularly the last 150 years.

[Nick Riffed]

I have played with people who are very good if they have had sight of something written down but can't jam for sh*t.
I have also played with people that can't read a note but can give a damn good account of themselves, having heard a tune just once or quite often never before, and are more than happy to sit in with anyone at any time.

There is a place for all methods of learning and playing and if someone can take an idea from his head, transcribe it in such a way that he can pass it on to someone who instantly understands it and can play it straight off, that is a wonderful ability.

That still leaves room for the people that can't read music, don't think they know about theory but can be handed a bass down the studio or boozer and jump straight on a tune.

Whilst one may be great for a wonderful production of some nature, once I'm in the groove and the vibe is there I know that I don't want gaps appearing because there is no sheet music to hand and without it a "musician" won't take a flyer and just jump in.

No one is gonna die if it isn't recording quality. Music is for entertainment. Including that of the performers.

[Ticktock]

Well said, that man.

[pierreganseman]

As a freelance bass player i think music theory is a tool for communication in my opinion. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Some people have written amazing music, barely knowing what a C was. That is great and I respect that.

Coming into a studio and being given a chart with bass line, or chord chart or what ever. Person looks at it and knows within less than a minute knows more or less how the tunes goes. person X can get the job done in 3 takes. Altough the ability to write a decent chart seems to be a lost art. I have been given some stuff completely unreadable. Nothing more awful to have to re do all charts before a gig with 24 hour notice lol.

Could the recording be done with no knowledge of music theory?

Of course, that's not even a question..... but I have been stuck in studio with people saying like "yes I don't know... just add more color".. or "so it goes like this... you put your finger on 1st fret" (cause they did not know what an F was)....

And OMG that is frustrating........ in my opinion those sessions could all have been done in 1/10th of the total time spent.

Music theory is there to communicate... once you gotta start putting it in word..... its the "end" of it...

As one person "mellow" will be another persons "mid tempo"... or what ever...

bla bla bla bla......

.......over and out

Edited October 20, 2013 by pierreganseman

[Annoying Twit]

I do think that not learning theory gives an illusion of additional creativity. E.g. someone without theory may come up with a bassline and realise 'hey, this uses notes from the major key (sic) except that I'm using the flatted seventh - this is brand new, nobody who knows theory would come up with this.' George Martin reported that The Beatles thought they had invented the added sixth chord.

Personally I think the fastest way to get someone making up their own basslines is to teach them the minor pentatonic scale. Later on after learning more scales and modes, along with rhythms, prompt them to try using notes that aren't in the scale. How is someone taught like that more constrained than someone who doesn't know what any of the notes on the fretboard are?

[ambient]

They're all just tools at the end of the day.

Being able to read standard notation.

Being able to confidently play something appropriate when given a chord chart.

Having the physical skill (technique) to play what is required.

Having good listening skills to know by hearing what's going on harmonically.

Having these doesn't make you a more creative player, but it does make you a more in demand and employable player.

Here's a quote from Anthony Wellington's facebook page. He's a musician that I really admire, notice the word musician .

It's a bit long, but says a lot.

[i][color=#333333]Today, on my TalkBass 'ask a pro' page, a guy asked me if I thought that there were any players out there that were MORE superior than others. I assumed that he meant 'more elite than the elite,...or jazz players. He also asked if I knew any bass or drum 'savants'.[/color]

[color=#333333]Here's my long ass response![/color]

[color=#333333]"Actually, there are very few players that I hear that I feel are superior than most. Only 2 or 3 come to mind. [/color]

[color=#333333]I've been a teacher for a very long time so I don't evaluate someone's playing on whether I like what they do or not. I base it on what I refer to as their 'toolbox'. [/color]

[color=#333333]For me,...musicians are craftsmen! And when you think of what we do in those terms things become more clear. You not only hire a craftsman for the ideas that they have but also for having the 'tools' to bring those ideas to fruition.[/color]

[color=#333333]Think of Da Vinci,...[/color]

[color=#333333]He not only had to have the idea of the Mona Lisa but he also had to have the 'tools' to bring her to life. If he had the idea without the 'tools' we wouldn't have the Mona Lisa and if he had the 'tools' without the idea we wouldn't have the Mona Lisa.[/color]

[color=#333333]For me,...[/color]

[color=#333333]Victor Wooten has the biggest toolbox of any bass player I've ever heard or 'evaluated'! And I've checked MOST of them out. And Victor's has one of the BIGGEST imaginations out there too!. I'm not saying that he's my favorite bass player,...even though he is one of them. But I like my OWN playing more than I like his. But I like my own playing more than I like anyone's bass playing because I have yet to hear anyone play the bass in a way that expresses what I feel. NEVER! Only I can do that for me. [/color]

[color=#333333]But Victor is not trapped by the instrument that he plays like a lot of musicians are. His ideas are bigger than the bass guitar.[/color]

[color=#333333]Most of the bass players I've heard over my career are good at 1 thing. Some are good at a couple of things. But to me that's like a basketball player being good at 'driving to his right'. He can be better at that than anyone on the planet but once an opposing coach realizes that 'driving to his right' is his 'go to' move, he can be rendered 'non-effective'. The defenses can 'play him to his right'. He's exposed![/color]

[color=#333333]I don't want to go into any more detail than that because it'll be obvious, in some cases, who I am talking about. But listening, knowledge, dexterity, 'rhythmically complexity' are huge parts of the equation. And I find that Jazz musicians in general lack in rhythmic complexity. And Jazz musicians have been horrible writers for the last 30 years. That's why current Jazz musician's compositions haven't been added to the 'Real Book'. For the most part when you hear a Jazz band you're hearing a 'cover band' playing songs written before 1970. If you don't believe me,...just think of who YOU think is the current preeminent Jazz musician of our day and name 5 of their songs. Is it Wynton? Name 5 Wynton Marsalis Songs![/color]

[color=#333333]I know of a couple of bass players and drummers who I consider savants,...but I won't name them because they may not like that label. I believe that there is a very thin line between 'genius' and 'savant'."[/color][/i]

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='norvegicusbass' timestamp='1382296965' post='2250365']
wateroftyne where in Newcastle are you?
[/quote]

Hello!

Whitley Bay-ish.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='jakenewmanbass' timestamp='1382297246' post='2250372']
Indeed, that was my point, which is why i said your answer was an interesting one, I've seen some of your vids and consider you to be a very natural, good bass player. And I also think if you were aware of the theory (I'm not saying you aren't btw) behind what you were playing you'd remain those things. Knowing the theory would not take anything away from you as a player... It might however enhance certain areas, and we all could use a little enhancement huh
I think most instinctive musicians just forget rules and just play music when in the moment, but the theory still exists.
[/quote]

Thank you, Jake - you're very kind.

Just to clarify - I'm not one of those people who thinks knowing theory is a bad thing...!

No doubt spending time on the theory would enhance areas of my knowledge, but I honestly don't feel restricted as I am. Life being what it is you have to choose your battles, and there's other things I really need to focus my energies on at the moment.

One day, maybe...

[uncle psychosis]

I never fail to be completely baffled by what some people think theory "is". Knowing theory isn't about looking at the chord charts, stopping, and thinking "right, thats a Dm7 chord, so my magic theory book says I can only play these notes...". Its about being able to communicate what you're doing in a universal musical language. When I write a sentence in English I don't have to "think" about the theory---I just *know* the correct places to put punctuation and I don't have to think about it. I don't need to think how to spell individual words, I just write them down. Forming sentences is natural. When I want to form a paragraph to communicate an idea I don't need to just randomly throw sentences together until it makes sense---I already know what order they should be in in order to achieve the desired meaning and effect.

Knowing musical theory is like being able to read and write. Once you know the rules you don't have to obey them and you don't need to spend a lot of time thinking about it. Knowing theory is to writing music as knowing grammar is to writing a book. It helps, but it doesn't need to get in the way.

[BassTractor]

[quote name='Anthony Welington']
[i][color=#333333]"Victor Wooten has the biggest toolbox of any bass player I've ever heard or 'evaluated'! And I've checked MOST of them out. And Victor's has one of the BIGGEST imaginations out there too![/color][/i]"
[/quote]
.

Bah! [color=#ffffff].[/color] "Victor Wooton Ain't So Great".

Edited October 21, 2013 by BassTractor

[Stan_da_man]

Who uses theory to create music? Music should be a spur of the moment, I just thought of a great idea in my head thing. Theory lacks soul and music really needs that to make it special.

[AntLockyer]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1382354446' post='2250960']
I never fail to be completely baffled by what some people think theory "is". Knowing theory isn't about looking at the chord charts, stopping, and thinking "right, thats a Dm7 chord, so my magic theory book says I can only play these notes...".
[/quote]

Right but getting to a jam and the leader saying to you It's C7, E7, D7 watch me for the changes. Knowing some theory certainly helps there once the song starts. That is one of the things that has really driven me along. I jam every week, 12 bar blues in whatever key I know the changes, and I know the pattern on the fretboard where the changes go. I've also got a bunch of stock lines that work (crosscut saw, dyna flow etc.). However beyond that is a whole world of expression. playing a slow blues for example, there are a shed load of notes to choose from, it's great to be able to focus on the chord tines, really support the music that way then use chromatic notes to move from one chord to the next.

Some guys just do that naturally through years of experience, being able to substitute at least some of the experience with book learning fits in with my time and lifestyle.

Edited October 21, 2013 by AntLockyer

[CamdenRob]

The problem with theory is that no-one else knows it...

The amount of times I turn up for a jam and the guitarist has written a bunch of stuff that doesn't conform to any structure or key signature, "Who needs theory when it sounds cool man"... ... Coincidentally these are also the bands that only want you to play root notes....

I write every bassline I play from a theoretical perspective, knowing which notes work with which chord progressions etc... then again I have no soul....

Rob