Why does JAZZ seem to be so widely disliked?

[Coilte]

[quote name='BassTractor' timestamp='1382362354' post='2251161']
I'm not confident that I understand this text, but whatever you may mean, IME:
- most classical players stink at jazz, and are mostly very aware of this.
- most jazz players stink at playing classical, whilst thinking they do a good job.

No time to go into detail right now.
[/quote]


Basically what I am saying is that while a jazz player might not feel particularly comfortable playing classical music, IMO he would have the musical wherewithall to perform it to a much higher standard than would a classical player trying to perform jazz.

Edited October 21, 2013 by Coilte

[ras52]

Johnny Déteste Le Jazz. Mais pourquoi?

[url="http://wikipedia.qwika.com/en2fr/Johnny_Hates_Jazz"]http://wikipedia.qwi...hnny_Hates_Jazz[/url]

[Bolo]

Jazz appears to be a field where highly skilled musicians prove to be very poor songwriters.

[Coilte]

[quote name='Bolo' timestamp='1382364545' post='2251199']
Jazz appears to be a field where highly skilled musicians prove to be very poor songwriters.
[/quote]

They are at different ends of the music spectrum, and set out to express themselves in completely different ways.

[ubassman]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1382362907' post='2251168']
Basically what I am saying is that while a jazz player might not feel particularly comfortable playing classical music, IMO he would perform it to a much higher standard than would a classical player trying to perform jazz.
[/quote]

I was at the Geoff Clyne Bass festival a couple of years ago and in our group of about 6 players we each had to do a short 8 bar improvised solo. There was a very proficient classical player with outstanding technique who went ashen faced and asked but "how do you know what notes do you play?" That can be the difficulty as a Classical player you are required to play the right notes in the right order at the right time. Musically the idea of improvisation is not even on the radar on scored parts ( unless asked for by the composer!). Credit to her she 'heard' the notes and did a pretty reasonable impro ...not as polished or interesting as the regular jazzers but plausible.

Later in the afternoon when the roles were reversed, she went through some intonation, sight reading and bowing exercises and nobody came remotely close to her speed , accuracy, timing and command of her instrument. Playing in an orchestra requires an entirely different set of skills to playing in say a jazz trio and I dont think one can generalise who would make the transition the easiest.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='ubassman' timestamp='1382365111' post='2251211']
I was at the Geoff Clyne Bass festival a couple of years ago and in our group of about 6 players we each had to do a short 8 bar improvised solo. There was a very proficient classical player with outstanding technique who went ashen faced and asked but "how do you know what notes do you play?" That can be the difficulty as a Classical player you are required to play the right notes in the right order at the right time. Musically the idea of improvisation is not even on the radar on scored parts ( unless asked for by the composer!). Credit to her she 'heard' the notes and did a pretty reasonable impro ...not as polished or interesting as the regular jazzers but plausible.

Later in the afternoon when the roles were reversed, she went through some intonation, sight reading and bowing exercises and nobody came remotely close to her speed , accuracy, timing and command of her instrument. Playing in an orchestra requires an entirely different set of skills to playing in say a jazz trio and I dont think one can generalise who would make the transition the easiest.
[/quote]
This.
We really oughtn't underestimate the skill set of orchestral players, they perform to an astonishingly high level day in day out.

[tinyd]

[quote name='Bolo' timestamp='1382364545' post='2251199']
Jazz appears to be a field where highly skilled musicians prove to be very poor songwriters.
[/quote]
Do you mean actual writers of songs, or composers? If the latter, then I disagree - there are loads of beautiful pieces that have been written by some great musicians.

[Coilte]

[quote name='jakenewmanbass' timestamp='1382365224' post='2251214']
This.
We really oughtn't underestimate the skill set of orchestral players, they perform to an astonishingly high level day in day out.
[/quote]

I am in no way trying to underestimate the skills of the classical player. I fully realise that each type of music has it's own particular required skills. I just think that when it comes to all round musicianship, the jazzer has the slightly upper hand.

[swanbrook]

[quote name='BassTractor' timestamp='1382362354' post='2251161']


I'm not confident that I understand this text, but whatever you may mean, IME:
- most classical players stink at jazz, and are mostly very aware of this.
- most jazz players stink at playing classical, whilst thinking they do a good job.

No time to go into detail right now.
[/quote]

That's brilliant !!!

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1382365687' post='2251225']
I am in no way trying to underestimate the skills of the classical player. I fully realise that each type of music has it's own particular required skills. I just think that when it comes to all round musicianship, the jazzer has the slightly upper hand.
[/quote]
My experience varies, and I've played with lots of both.
My feeling is there is no hard and fast truth when assessing one or the other and that in fact there are good and bad in all walks. I've seen some woefully bad classical players and played with some jazzers that make me want to run a mile.
As well as the extreme opposite in both cases

Edited October 21, 2013 by jakenewmanbass

[ubassman]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1382365687' post='2251225']
I am in no way trying to underestimate the skills of the classical player. I fully realise that each type of music has it's own particular required skills. I just think that when it comes to all round musicianship, the jazzer has the slightly upper hand.
[/quote]

Maybe Coilte your experience of playing in an orchestra is very different to mine !

Form my experience as a keen jazzer and orchestral player, I can tell you theres is no "place to hide" in an orchestra. The deal is often like this ...you arrive at rehearsal , are given music score of a piece by a composer you may have never heard of (let alone the piece), you sit down and play every note and direction perfectly with precision as written. You have to get your fingerings correct, your bow articulation and changes correct and be one quality player so you don't stand out as the 'muppet' who cant play. You cant get away with Miles Davis concept that you are only half a note away from being in tune !

I love playing Jazz - but its a very different form of musicianship where you are in control of the decisions you make , what you play and how it feels. I couldnt begin to suggest that Jazzers have better musicianship than classical players ...or visa versa.

[BetaFunk]

From 3.55.......


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0pIioIc5lk

[Coilte]

[quote name='ubassman' timestamp='1382366840' post='2251250']
Maybe Coilte your experience of playing in an orchestra is very different to mine !

Form my experience as a keen jazzer and orchestral player, I can tell you theres is no "place to hide" in an orchestra. The deal is often like this ...you arrive at rehearsal , are given music score of a piece by a composer you may have never heard of (let alone the piece), you sit down and play every note and direction perfectly with precision as written. You have to get your fingerings correct, your bow articulation and changes correct and be one quality player so you don't stand out as the 'muppet' who cant play. You cant get away with Miles Davis concept that you are only half a note away from being in tune !

I love playing Jazz - but its a very different form of musicianship where you are in control of the decisions you make , what you play and how it feels. I couldnt begin to suggest that Jazzers have better musicianship than classical players ...or visa versa.
[/quote]


Fair enough. I accept your points, as my opinions are not based on experience of playing in an orchestra, but from similar discussions I have had with friends who do, and who readily admit to being genuinely at a loss when it comes to playing jazz. Perhaps I was being too rash in jumping to definitive conclusions, in that there can be no "one size fits all" rules.

[bassace]

[quote name='ubassman' timestamp='1382366840' post='2251250']
Maybe Coilte your experience of playing in an orchestra is very different to mine !

Form my experience as a keen jazzer and orchestral player, I can tell you theres is no "place to hide" in an orchestra. The deal is often like this ...you arrive at rehearsal , are given music score of a piece by a composer you may have never heard of (let alone the piece), you sit down and play every note and direction perfectly with precision as written. You have to get your fingerings correct, your bow articulation and changes correct and be one quality player so you don't stand out as the 'muppet' who cant play. You cant get away with Miles Davis concept that you are only half a note away from being in tune !

I love playing Jazz - but its a very different form of musicianship where you are in control of the decisions you make , what you play and how it feels. I couldnt begin to suggest that Jazzers have better musicianship than classical players ...or visa versa.
[/quote]

I agree to a point, but I know many jazzers who are excellent session musicians who possess the skills outlined above.

And as for jazzers not making good song writers (earlier post) it would take someone special to beat Monk's Round Midnight - and of course there are a lot of others.

[tedmanzie]

I blame Cleo Laine

[ShergoldSnickers]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1382294700' post='2250297']
People don't react like this to 'classical' music do they?
[/quote]

Mozart. The majority of it sounds to me like how cream soda tastes. Hate it, although there are exceptions in his output that actually have feeling and some pretension to substance.

[xilddx]

[quote name='ShergoldSnickers' timestamp='1382371985' post='2251369']
Mozart. The majority of it sounds to me like how cream soda tastes. Hate it, although there are exceptions in his output that actually have feeling and some pretension to substance.
[/quote]

No, you're thinking of Vivaldi

[steve-bbb]

i blame kenny ball

or was it kenny g

i cant remember

nurse .... NURSE

[ShergoldSnickers]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1382372216' post='2251375']
No, you're thinking of Vivaldi
[/quote]

Yes I am now. Thanks.

[ras52]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1382372216' post='2251375']
No, you're thinking of Vivaldi
[/quote]

Le Quattro Stagioni? Some people think it's a bit cheesy. Oh hang on, that's Le Quatto Formaggi.

[lojo]

[quote name='BetaFunk' timestamp='1382367163' post='2251258']
From 3.55.......


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0pIioIc5lk
[/quote]

Yes, Gil Scott Heron can talk through a whole song and its not only captivating its just as enjoyable as if he was singing, he was an amazing natural talent.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='ubassman' timestamp='1382365111' post='2251211']
I was at the Geoff Clyne Bass festival a couple of years ago and in our group of about 6 players we each had to do a short 8 bar improvised solo. There was a very proficient classical player with outstanding technique who went ashen faced and asked but "how do you know what notes do you play?" That can be the difficulty as a Classical player you are required to play the right notes in the right order at the right time. Musically the idea of improvisation is not even on the radar on scored parts ( unless asked for by the composer!). Credit to her she 'heard' the notes and did a pretty reasonable impro ...not as polished or interesting as the regular jazzers but plausible.

Later in the afternoon when the roles were reversed, she went through some intonation, sight reading and bowing exercises and nobody came remotely close to her speed , accuracy, timing and command of her instrument. Playing in an orchestra requires an entirely different set of skills to playing in say a jazz trio and I dont think one can generalise who would make the transition the easiest.
[/quote]

I have respect for classical musicians, because they don't do any of the things that we consider great or cool in popular music, like improv, but they have incredible ability and technique. As much as I fail to be up to a jazz player's standard, I'd fail just as hard to be a classical musician.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='BetaFunk' timestamp='1382367163' post='2251258']
From 3.55.......


[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0pIioIc5lk[/media]
[/quote]

Enjoyed the bit with the patter and the singing, solos bored me.

[Johngh]

If its smooth jazz or some jazz fusion then to a degree I'm ok.


It's the everybody playing whatever notes they want mish mash twaddle jazz that drives me nuts.

[discreet]

[quote name='Johngh' timestamp='1382392647' post='2251736']
If its smooth jazz or some jazz fusion then to a degree I'm ok.
[size=4]It's the everybody playing whatever notes they want mish mash twaddle jazz that drives me nuts.[/size]
[/quote]

Anyone using the word 'fusion' who is not actually a nuclear scientist must be lashed until they drop.