Do not use Parcelforce to ship musical instruments

[chriswareham]

Hi folks,

I've just had a claim for compensation refused by Parcelforce. They will only honour insurance claims for musical instruments up to 100GBP, even if you take out enhanced compensation, and only if the instrument is sent in what they judge to be a hard case. In my experience they will sell you enhanced compensation at the Post Office counter - Parcelforce are owned and operated by the Post Office - even if they are aware you are sending a musical instrument. The terms and conditions are not explained to you, and on checking with the branch I used the Post Office do not have them in printed format.

In my case, the appeals centre responded with what I now know is their standard refusal that allegs the item was "inadequately packaged". This is despite the box I used being a double thickness corrugated cardboard one, with bracing pieces and packing to ensure the guitar could not move once inside the box. Even with this packaging, it arrived with impact and pressure damage that resulted in a smashed scratch plate and dents through the finish that exposed the wood on both neck and body.

The worst part for me is that the guitar had arrived unscathed from Slovakia in a much flimsier box only a few weeks ago. The box I then used to send it from London to Manchester was one that Fender had used to send a special order to a local dealer via the US Postal Service - the box was immaculate, and that's despite the USPS having a fearsome reputation for mistreating parcels!

Cheers,

Chris

PS - Could we make this a sticky topic on the General Discussion forum as a warning to others?

[ambient]

I think most couriers are the same if you read the small print, their enhanced insurance is a waste of money.

[CamdenRob]

Ouch... Its just pot luck really. I got a cab from parcelforce last week - completely undamaged, got a bass from UPS the previous week - case smashed to bits...

[Clarky]

Last month I sent an EUB to BC'er Beedster (London to Wales) via ParcelForce (the only company that offers a 'large box' service). I put very prominent stickers on both sides of the box saying "Fragile - musical instrument".

So Mrs Beedster comes home and finds a shredded box in her garden, with a big hole in one side, packing material blowing everywhere, and sat in the pouring rain. A covered porch was 10 feet away. Furthermore they forged Beedster's signature to pretend he had accepted delivery.

Utter disgrace. Fortunately the bass was so heavily packed and solid it was unharmed. Otherwise this would really have kicked off

[Dingus]

I think you can insure musical instruments shipped with Parcelforce for more than £1000 , but not if you book the shipment directly from Parcelforce. I could be wrong about this, so anyone thinking of shipping something please do check , but if you book a service via one of the cut-price shipping agencies that use Parcel Force as one of their carriers then in some instances you can insure a musical instrument for extra value but I think the significant difference is that the insurance is provided by the shipping agency's insurance brokers and not the usual cover offered by Parcelforce. As I have just said, [u] please check [/u]if you thinking about using their service , not least of all because cover available will vary from one agency to another , but I seem to remember from past experience that this is the case.

Edited October 21, 2013 by Dingus

[ambient]

This is why I've put collection only on the 3 adverts where I've sold basses.

[RhysP]

It's clearly stated in the Parcelforce T&Cs (or it certainly used to be) that musical instruments are only covered up to a certain amount.

I've used Parcelforce for pretty much all the guitars & basses I've shipped without any problems, which is more than can be said for some couriers (UPS for example).

Unfortunately using any courier to send a musical instrument is risky unless you ship the instrument in a proper hardshell case, and even then it's not 100% sure it'll arrive unscathed.

[chriswareham]

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1382360542' post='2251119']
It's clearly stated in the Parcelforce T&Cs (or it certainly used to be) that musical instruments are only covered up to a certain amount.

I've used Parcelforce for pretty much all the guitars & basses I've shipped without any problems, which is more than can be said for some couriers (UPS for example).

Unfortunately using any courier to send a musical instrument is risky unless you ship the instrument in a proper hardshell case, and even then it's not 100% sure it'll arrive unscathed.
[/quote] But if they have no printed copy of the terms and conditions, nor do their staff know them, then how can the sender be at fault? As I stated above, the Post Office counter staff were aware of what the item was and still sold me the enhanced compensation. Also note that even with a hard case they will not honour enhanced compensation claims. The definition of hard case is somewhat open to their interpretation as well, not that even a full flight case would have prevented the degree of impact damage to my bass.

Edited October 21, 2013 by chriswareham

[discreet]

[quote name='Clarky' timestamp='1382359380' post='2251084']
I put very prominent stickers on both sides of the box saying "Fragile - musical instrument".
[/quote]

That's where you went wrong, Clarky. Packages with 'Fragile' stickers on them get singled out for 'special treatment'.

[CamdenRob]

It was the hardcase itself they managed to smash to bits on mine... annoying as it was original to the bass. I don't know how they managed to do it, it was a good thick solid bit of plastic with a metal brace. This wasn't just a knock... must have been dropped from a serious height.

Edited October 21, 2013 by CamdenRob

[flyfisher]

[quote name='chriswareham' timestamp='1382358969' post='2251075']
In my case, the appeals centre responded with what I now know is their standard refusal that allegs the item was "inadequately packaged".
[/quote]

I suppose it's practically impossible to argue against something being 'inadequately packaged' - the 'proof' is the fact it was damaged.

A bit much about the £100 insurance limit though. Surely there must be a way of insuring something for its full value?

[steve-bbb]

[quote name='chriswareham' timestamp='1382358969' post='2251075']
Hi folks,

I've just had a claim for compensation refused by Parcelforce. They will only honour insurance claims for musical instruments up to 100GBP, even if you take out enhanced compensation, and only if the instrument is sent in what they judge to be a hard case. In my experience they will sell you enhanced compensation at the Post Office counter - Parcelforce are owned and operated by the Post Office - even if they are aware you are sending a musical instrument. The terms and conditions are not explained to you, and on checking with the branch I used the Post Office do not have them in printed format.

In my case, the appeals centre responded with what I now know is their standard refusal that allegs the item was "inadequately packaged". This is despite the box I used being a double thickness corrugated cardboard one, with bracing pieces and packing to ensure the guitar could not move once inside the box. Even with this packaging, it arrived with impact and pressure damage that resulted in a smashed scratch plate and dents through the finish that exposed the wood on both neck and body.

The worst part for me is that the guitar had arrived unscathed from Slovakia in a much flimsier box only a few weeks ago. The box I then used to send it from London to Manchester was one that Fender had used to send a special order to a local dealer via the US Postal Service - the box was immaculate, and that's despite the USPS having a fearsome reputation for mistreating parcels!


[/quote]

this sounds pretty much like the synopsis you will need to write on your small court claim form

[Clarky]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1382361216' post='2251133']
That's where you went wrong, Clarky. Packages with 'Fragile' stickers on them get singled out for 'special treatment'.
[/quote]
If you read Lord of the Rings, you would know "Fragile - musical instrument" translates in Orc-ish to "Kick sh*it out of this, by order of Mordor"

[RhysP]

[quote name='chriswareham' timestamp='1382360954' post='2251130']
But if they have no printed copy of the terms and conditions, nor do their staff know them, then how can the sender be at fault? As I stated above, the Post Office counter staff were aware of what the item was and still sold me the enhanced compensation.
[/quote]

Nobody ever told me about it either, I just always make sure I find out the important stuff like this to my own satisfaction.

This is why it's always best to assume that nobody knows anything & make sure you do your homework first. It might take a bit longer but it helps avoid situations like the one you currently find yourself in.

[RhysP]

[quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1382361226' post='2251134']
It was the hardcase itself they managed to smash to bits on mine... annoying as it was original to the bass. I don't know how they managed to do it, it was a good thick solid bit of plastic with a metal brace. This wasn't just a knock... must have been dropped from a serious height.
[/quote]

Not necessarily dropped from a great height - there are hardcases & hardcases.

Hiscox ones are probably the best without going down the "full flightcase" route, whereas a lot of supposed hardcases like the Musicman ones are incredibly fragile & offer little more genuine protection than a good gig bag.

[CamdenRob]

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1382362624' post='2251165']
Not necessarily dropped from a great height - there are hardcases & hardcases.

Hiscox ones are probably the best without going down the "full flightcase" route, whereas a lot of supposed hardcases like the Musicman ones are incredibly fragile & offer little more genuine protection than a good gig bag.
[/quote]

Yeah fair point, this was an 83 fender one, which (when shipped) was mint, that's why it was a bit of a shame....

[spinynorman]

Whenever I see shipping charges quoted that look horribly expensive, it usually turns out they're planning to use Parcelforce. The only courier I trust less is Yodel. But I've shipped basses, cabs and other things within the UK and various parts of Europe with UPS, and never had any problem. I can't explain why anyone would have the opposite experience, maybe it's something about the local depots. The only problem I've had with USPS is they use Parcelforce at this end.

[chriswareham]

[quote name='steve-bbb' timestamp='1382361610' post='2251144']
this sounds pretty much like the synopsis you will need to write on your small court claim form
[/quote]

Small claims court. Now that's a thought. As a contract computer programmer I once made a claim against a client who failed to pay their final invoice. On the allotted day neither they or their representative bothered to turn up in court (more of an office really) and the result was a default finding in my favour. If I claim against Parcelforce and they fail to turn up then they can shove their incompetent staff and T&Cs somewhere dark and hairy :-)

[Conan]

This whole courier/shipping thing appears to be a total lottery. One person says "don't use Company X, they are useless and trashed my item Y". Another member then says "I've never had a problem with them, they are far superior to Company Z - who are really bollox"... etc, etc.

Why is there no consistency between these service providers? Who regulates (or is supposed to regulate) them?

I have sat on an aeroplane before and watched the baggage handlers kicking cases and bags all over the place. How do they get away with this?

[Marvin]

[quote name='chriswareham' timestamp='1382363794' post='2251187']
Small claims court. Now that's a thought. As a contract computer programmer I once made a claim against a client who failed to pay their final invoice. On the allotted day neither they or their representative bothered to turn up in court (more of an office really) and the result was a default finding in my favour. If I claim against Parcelforce and they fail to turn up then they can shove their incompetent staff and T&Cs somewhere dark and hairy :-)
[/quote]

Just to point out you never dealt with any Parcelforce staff. You were sold the service by Post Office Counters staff. The two are different companies (Parcelforce is neither owned or run by the Post Office) with PO Counters acting effectively as an agent for Parcelforce. I should imagine your complaint would have to be focused on PO Counters for not making clear the T&C's of the service.

Edited October 21, 2013 by Marvin

[Marvin]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1382364234' post='2251194']
This whole courier/shipping thing appears to be a total lottery. One person says "don't use Company X, they are useless and trashed my item Y". Another member then says "I've never had a problem with them, they are far superior to Company Z - who are really bollox"... etc, etc.

Why is there no consistency between these service providers? Who regulates (or is supposed to regulate) them?

I have sat on an aeroplane before and watched the baggage handlers kicking cases and bags all over the place. How do they get away with this?
[/quote]

It's the same in almost any logistics and freight operation. A university friend of mine worked for Comet in their warehouses one summer...televisions get a hard life before they get to a shop

It's all to do with time and money.

Edited October 21, 2013 by Marvin

[Conan]

[quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1382364413' post='2251196']
It's all to do with time and money.
[/quote]

I don't see how kicking and throwing items about saves time or money?

[spinynorman]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1382364540' post='2251198']
I don't see how kicking and throwing items about saves time or money?
[/quote]

No, nor do I. It's more likely down to management, supervision and training (though money comes into that).

Parcelforce is part of Royal Mail Group, and RM senior management is a case study in how not to run a service organisation.

[oggiesnr]

If you want to scare yourself about sending anything then next time you get a delivery from ANY courier sneak a look into the back of their vehicle. The earlier in the day it is the worse it will be but typically it will be piled high with no regard to anything it says on the box ("Fragile" you must be kidding) and it the driver can't find one of the parcels watch the way it all gets thrown about.

Steve

[Conan]

Oh hell. These threads, and the frequency with which they are appearing, are making me think twice about shipping my Spector (assuming anyone buys it, of course!).

I've been lucky with couriers so far, but...