Do not use Parcelforce to ship musical instruments

[CPBass]

I use these guys for all enhanced insurance. They specialise in cargo insurance and are not too bad cost wise. The guy I speak to is Peter Williams who sort it all very quickly. You can then use you regular courier with some peace of mind that your properly covered. For instance: Ive sent to Hungary / Spain / Greece and USA.

http://www.the-insurance-broker.com

[Mr. Foxen]

I made a thread for BCers travelling who can move stuff between BCers and offered to act as a hub of sorts (since I work at home) but it fell off pretty quickly. I'm in Bristol and don't mind the odd bass laying about.

[Marvin]

I don't work for the courier companies and neither am I defending certain 'work practices'. However, I have on occasion spoken to quite a few drivers and their call rate is quite stupid. The number of items per hour they're required to deliver is just impossible...it possibly explains why they drive like maniacs etc. Combine this with inadequate training and low wages...it would also explain the high turnover of staff for these companies.

[ras52]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1382366250' post='2251234']
Oh hell. These threads, and the frequency with which they are appearing, are making me think twice about shipping my Spector (assuming anyone buys it, of course!).

I've been lucky with couriers so far, but...
[/quote]

Quite, I packaged up a guitar for a marketplace sale over the weekend - expanded polystyrene, bubblewrap, neck brace, box within a box, the full works, now I'm fearful about it turning to firewood :-(

[Lozz196]

Without wanting to split hairs, Parcelforce are not owned by The Post Office. Post Office Ltd is wholly owned by the government. Parcelforce is part of Royal Mail Group whom Post Office Ltd split from in April 2012.

But back to the actual issue - I agree wholeheartedly, don`t use them to send musical instruments. Their argument will always be it is up to the customer to check. I do agree that the Post Office counter staff should ascertain what is being sent, and if it is in the exclusions, and explain this to the customer - this is in their training, however once someone has been trained to do a job, it is unfortunately up to them as to whether they carry out the job properly (whilst the boss isn`t about).

[FinnDave]

Any instruments or amps, cabs etc I buy or sell are always shipped via GAGI/CAGI*. No worries that way.




*Go And Get It/ Come And Get It.

[chriswareham]

[quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1382364270' post='2251195']
Just to point out you never dealt with any Parcelforce staff. You were sold the service by Post Office Counters staff. The two are different companies (Parcelforce is neither owned or run by the Post Office) with PO Counters acting effectively as an agent for Parcelforce. I should imagine your complaint would have to be focused on PO Counters for not making clear the T&C's of the service.
[/quote]

My understanding was that both Parcelforce and Post Office Counters are part of the Royal Mail Group, but it appears that changed early in 2012 as part of the run up to privatisation. So it would be Post Office Counters I'd have to take to the Small Claims Court, which is probably a better option since they missold the services to me.

[chriswareham]

[quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1382366722' post='2251244']
I don't work for the courier companies and neither am I defending certain 'work practices'. However, I have on occasion spoken to quite a few drivers and their call rate is quite stupid. The number of items per hour they're required to deliver is just impossible...it possibly explains why they drive like maniacs etc. Combine this with inadequate training and low wages...it would also explain the high turnover of staff for these companies.
[/quote]

A drummer from a previous band worked as a delivery driver, the kind that effectively works freelance using their own van. His comments on the expected delivery rate were along the lines you suggest - the rate seemed to be based on an assumption that there would be no traffic on the roads at any time of the day and that getting from each drop would be in a straight line!

[graham1945]

Just a few five eggs here, I live on a speedhumped road which is also a rat run to avoid traffic lights. Every single courier firm speeds down here, totally ignoring the speed humps and one can hear the parcels landing a second or so after they ground their sumps. Current record breaker is a UKMail driver who was heard to shout "yee haaa" whilst fully airborne!
Surely a market for a new company to exploit the failings of all the others?
Graham

[Musky]

Wasn't it Out To Play Jazz who had almost the same experience with Parcelforce, word for word?

He had a positive outcome, after a huge amount of effort and emails to the MD. If you're prepared for a fight you might get compensation.

Edit: Nope, it was Old Git. http://basschat.co.uk/topic/716-dont-post-your-bass-via-parcelforceroyalmail

Even the thread title was pretty much the same.

Edited October 21, 2013 by Musky

[essexbasscat]

Time for a UK version of this ?



[url="http://youtu.be/5YGc4zOqozo"]http://youtu.be/5YGc4zOqozo[/url]

[discreet]

When packing something you need to assume it's going to be dropped from [i]at least[/i] head height and deliberately stood on by a sweaty 20st bloke in heavy boots when he's trying to reach something else in his van. If you can't pack to this level then don't send it.

[discreet]

[size=4][quote name='Musky' timestamp='1382380325' post='2251528']
He had a positive outcome, after a huge amount of effort and emails to the MD. If you're prepared for a fight you might get compensation.
[url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/716-dont-post-your-bass-via-parcelforceroyalmail"]http://basschat.co.u...lforceroyalmail[/url]
Even the thread title was pretty much the same.
[/quote]

Well there's hope yet, then! Definitely worth a read.[/size]

Edited October 21, 2013 by discreet

[lefrash]

I've never had anything damaged by parcel force but in the past 8 months I've had 3 packages going missing (including a bass guitar). Now for me, thats more than poor service, surely a package that size doesnt just get lost, it gets lost in the boot of someones car!

Also I just went to pick up a small package on saturday after receiving a slip through the door, When I got to the depot they couldnt find it, and had to come back. I got call this afternoon to say they;ve found it. I went to pick it up only to wait close to 20 minutes for them to find it again! Whilst I was waiting on both days there was 4 other customers they had to ask to come back for packages that they couldnt find. Absolutely pathetic!

[jezzaboy]

Guys I have worked for several courier companies and pallet network companies. What you must realise is nobody in these companies gives a monkeys about your parcels. You can stick Fragile stickers all over them, it won`t make a bit of difference.

The guys in the warehouse get crap money and a lot of them are agency guys working for min wage. The drivers are under pressure to get the drops delivered and usually, get crap money. It is just the way the industry is. Lots of pressure, very little cash.

[BetaFunk]

This is a link to my wonderful courier experience a few weeks ago. It's not just Parcelforce as you'll see.

http://basschat.co.uk/topic/219689-couriers/page__pid__2251585__st__30#entry2251585

[flyfisher]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1382382688' post='2251574']
When packing something you need to assume it's going to be dropped from [i]at least[/i] head height and deliberately stood on by a sweaty 20st bloke in heavy boots when he's trying to reach something else in his van. If you can't pack to this level then don't send it.
[/quote]

Yep, that'll probably do it. Problem is, that level of packaging will cost so much, and the resulting extra weight will cost additional courier charges, that it's more likely to make Finn/Dave's "GAGI/CAGI" method more cost effective. It's certainly my first preference - plus, you get to try before you buy AND get to meet some great BCers.

[tauzero]

[quote name='graham1945' timestamp='1382378302' post='2251489']
Surely a market for a new company to exploit the failings of all the others?
[/quote]

I've worked as a motorcycle courier for companies including Pony Express and TNT. TNT used to get the parels that ParcelFarce (motto: We can lose an elephant and break an anvil) couldn't manage to deliver because they couldn't find the destination.

After ParcelFarce managed to destroy a hard case for a bass [1], fortunately not damaging the bass in the process, I've stuck with UPS via Interparcel.

[1] One of those flat oblong wooden/board ones, not up to flight case or Hiscox standards but more resilient than cardboard

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='chriswareham' timestamp='1382358969' post='2251075']
Hi folks,

I've just had a claim for compensation refused by Parcelforce. They will only honour insurance claims for musical instruments up to 100GBP, even if you take out enhanced compensation, and only if the instrument is sent in what they judge to be a hard case. In my experience they will sell you enhanced compensation at the Post Office counter - Parcelforce are owned and operated by the Post Office - even if they are aware you are sending a musical instrument. The terms and conditions are not explained to you, and on checking with the branch I used the Post Office do not have them in printed format.

In my case, the appeals centre responded with what I now know is their standard refusal that allegs the item was "inadequately packaged". This is despite the box I used being a double thickness corrugated cardboard one, with bracing pieces and packing to ensure the guitar could not move once inside the box. Even with this packaging, it arrived with impact and pressure damage that resulted in a smashed scratch plate and dents through the finish that exposed the wood on both neck and body.

The worst part for me is that the guitar had arrived unscathed from Slovakia in a much flimsier box only a few weeks ago. The box I then used to send it from London to Manchester was one that Fender had used to send a special order to a local dealer via the US Postal Service - the box was immaculate, and that's despite the USPS having a fearsome reputation for mistreating parcels!

Cheers,

Chris

PS - Could we make this a sticky topic on the General Discussion forum as a warning to others?
[/quote]

Without wishing to make it sound like you really are to blame, but - how well packaged was this guitar? I mean, if it really was well packaged, would it have really sustained that much damage? Was the guitar worth a lot?

Personally, I always use Parcel Force. I wouldn't say I'm loyal to them - if there's a cheaper courier out there, I probably would use them. I know what courier companies can be like, so I really am making sure that there's not much chance of damage being made. I can spend a few hours bunching up old newspapers and throwing them into a bicycle box (ask anybody who has bought a bass off me) and putting piece of styrofoam and covering the bass in bubble wrap. Is it overkill? Definitely, but even though the instruments I'm sending aren't particularly expensive, I know that if it gets damaged in transit, I'm out of pocket.

[Beedster]

[quote name='Clarky' timestamp='1382359380' post='2251084']
Last month I sent an EUB to BC'er Beedster (London to Wales) via ParcelForce (the only company that offers a 'large box' service). I put very prominent stickers on both sides of the box saying "Fragile - musical instrument".

So Mrs Beedster comes home and finds a shredded box in her garden, with a big hole in one side, packing material blowing everywhere, and sat in the pouring rain. A covered porch was 10 feet away. Furthermore they forged Beedster's signature to pretend he had accepted delivery.

Utter disgrace. Fortunately the bass was so heavily packed and solid it was unharmed. Otherwise this would really have kicked off
[/quote]

The evidence.

[attachment=146665:IMG_1402.jpg]

You can't see it in the pic but the box was also soaked through having been left as Clarky says, in the rain 10 feet from a covered porch. And yes, the scumbag forged my signature. Luckily I was in a lecture in front of 250 students at the exact time the package was signed for, but as Clarky said, the bass is built like a 1950 Russian tank so, much as I would have like to, we didn't pursue it.

Edited October 21, 2013 by Beedster

[Lozz196]

[quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1382364270' post='2251195']
Just to point out you never dealt with any Parcelforce staff. You were sold the service by Post Office Counters staff. The two are different companies (Parcelforce is neither owned or run by the Post Office) with PO Counters acting effectively as an agent for Parcelforce. I should imagine your complaint would have to be focused on PO Counters for not making clear the T&C's of the service.
[/quote]
[quote name='chriswareham' timestamp='1382368706' post='2251306']
My understanding was that both Parcelforce and Post Office Counters are part of the Royal Mail Group, but it appears that changed early in 2012 as part of the run up to privatisation. So it would be Post Office Counters I'd have to take to the Small Claims Court, which is probably a better option since they missold the services to me.
[/quote]

Yes, if at the time of the transaction you asked them specifically if your item would be covered and they stated yes, then you have a claim against them for not checking properly. As part of their training they are meant to ask the customer if what you are sending is urgent or valuable. From there it is a two-way conversation on the contents and if they state that something which is listed in the exclusions is covered, they are at fault.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Beedster' timestamp='1382390733' post='2251708']
The evidence.

[attachment=146665:IMG_1402.jpg]

You can't see it in the pic but the box was also soaked through having been left as Clarky says, in the rain 10 feet from a covered porch. And yes, the scumbag forged my signature. Luckily I was in a lecture in front of 250 students at the exact time the package was signed for, but as Clarky said, the bass is built like a 1950 Russian tank so, much as I would have like to, we didn't pursue it.
[/quote]

That is a disgrace. Regardless of whether damage was done or not, you should have chased it up. Also, the driver self-signed? What is that, fraud?

[ead]

I have worked in the logistics industry for a number of years and it is very variable. All the suppliers have good and bad days / experiences and the pressure put on the delivery drivers can be unacceptable. If at all possible I now deliver basses to people I have sold them to even if it's a 2-3 hour trip - the bonus is you get to meet some really nice BC folk.

Even though the couriers are obliged to treat your parcel with due care, the caveat emptor (buyer beware) principle does still apply sadly, and ignorance (as in no Ts and Cs to hand) is not generally accepted as an excuse in law. You would probably have to demonstrate that you had tried hard to find the information. I would always consider third party insurance if the parcel is something you value and take plenty of pictures of the item and the packing process at all stages, not forgetting the finished box.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='ead' timestamp='1382426163' post='2251865']
...the caveat emptor (buyer beware) principle does still apply sadly, and ignorance (as in no Ts and Cs to hand) is not generally accepted as an excuse in law. You would probably have to demonstrate that you had tried hard to find the information...
[/quote]
.. and the information that you can't in any real sense insure a musical instrument with Parcelforce is easily available here at Basschat as we have had this same conversation several, possibly many, times.

[Beedster]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1382426602' post='2251869'] .. and the information that you can't in any real sense insure a musical instrument with Parcelforce is easily available here at Basschat as we have had this same conversation several, possibly many, times. [/quote]

Hallelujah to that