Dirty Loops' first original number

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='nottswarwick' timestamp='1383251817' post='2262280']My opinion is that, in spite of them being excellent players, and tight as a unit, it's boring.[/quote]

Maybe they've spent so much of their time learning to play really accurately, that as a consequence they've not really done anything worth writing a song about.

[BassTractor]

Boring, formulaic and deeply lacking in musicality!
... and that's all I have to say about you lot!


The music however totally rocks my boat, despite the 80s, the synths, the formulaicness and every other just remark that has been made. I find it moving in several senses, and the chord progression takes me each time I listen to it.

I came to this thread after a search, as I had never heard of Dirty Loops before. So my reference frame is limited to this song and the outro bit that Steve BBB posted in the "Monster Horns" thread.

[bubinga5]

technically brilliant. great at doing covers. havent heard the album but that song, like german engineering, is a bit soulless

Edited April 20, 2014 by bubinga5

[skej21]

Technically and theoretically brilliant but lacks so much maturity of musicianship in my opinion. The lack of feel, emotion, dynamic range, groove and most importantly, space is just astounding to me. Also, IMO music should be enjoyed by an audience not create a platform to exhibit sterile technical exercises best kept for the practice room.

What's the point in learning the depths of music theory and becoming so technically adept if you have nothing to say and can't communicate a meaningful message to an audience?

[Dad3353]

[quote name='skej21' timestamp='1398021133' post='2429656']...What's the point in learning the depths of music theory and becoming so technically adept if you have nothing to say and can't communicate a meaningful message to an audience?[/quote]

Exactly, that's what jazz is for.

[skej21]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1398021599' post='2429662']


Exactly, that's what jazz is for.
[/quote]

Someone should send them a copy of Wooten's Groove Workshop... They'd learn a lot more from it than all the theory books they clearly love!

Edited April 20, 2014 by skej21

[BassTractor]

[quote name='skej21' timestamp='1398021133' post='2429656']
Technically and theoretically brilliant but lacks so much maturity of musicianship in my opinion. The lack of feel, emotion, dynamic range, groove and most importantly, space is just astounding to me. Also, IMO music should be enjoyed by an audience not create a platform to exhibit sterile technical exercises best kept for the practice room.

What's the point in learning the depths of music theory and becoming so technically adept if you have nothing to say and can't communicate a meaningful message to an audience?
[/quote]

Hm. You sound like those people who criticise J.S. Bach's compositions for the exact same reasons.
I for one, though never claiming that this is the last word in music, and especially not claiming that it has any brilliance theoretically, enjoyed it thoroughly because of how it communicated a meaningful, musical message to me. It rocked me more than anything else had rocked me for months.

[skej21]

[quote name='BassTractor' timestamp='1398026930' post='2429729']


Hm. You sound like those people who criticise J.S. Bach's compositions for the exact same reasons.
I for one, though never claiming that this is the last word in music, and especially not claiming that it has any brilliance theoretically, enjoyed it thoroughly because of how it communicated a meaningful, musical message to me. It rocked me more than anything else had rocked me for months.
[/quote]

And that's what is brilliant about opinions. I was simply expressing mine which required no response or meant no offence. Enjoy yours :-)

Also, Im actually a big fan of Bachs compositions (after my academic studies majoring in composition and studying his works in depth and living with my wife whose PhD research looks at vocal performance styles in baroque music including lots of Bach, who wouldn't be?!). I simply made a constructive observation based on personal opinion and personal experience. As for your assumptions about me, maybe you can keep those to yourself as you clearly know nothing about me :-)

Edited April 20, 2014 by skej21

[Diablo]

Have they changed drummers in the last year or so? I rememeber listening/watching some of their shred stuff a good while ago and thinking that the bass was very talented, but ultimately way over the top and unnecessary, and the drummer was crap. It seems the drummer has either changed or improved, and the rest is the same. Just because you CAN play every note on the fretboard at 250bpm does not mean you NEED to in every single song you play, original or not.

I never did work out if the bassists was male, female or eunuch though.

[skej21]

[quote name='BassTractor' timestamp='1398028370' post='2429743']


I don't think you were simply expressing an opinion. I think you were basically telling the world that you are a very musical person and that those who do enjoy it are not.
Your editing your answer again and again seems to confirm this notion.

That said, you must function on a considerably higher level than me. Though I did study composition too, I never majored in it.

[i]Demn! What to do now? Would it help if I admitted that I actually taught electronic music at the college of music, and was a student of both Penderecki and Xenakis? Nah. Hardly. Better leave it...[/i]



BTW, I did not assume anything about you re the Bach thing. I confronted you with how you sound, in the hope that that mirror would give you something of value. Apparently, I struck some nerves way too hard, and I would have apologised for that had you acted a trifle more modest and openminded, and a trifle less condescending.
[/quote]

Like I said, you're entitled to your opinion and I care little for you think of mine. I also don't think it's condescending to answer your incorrect assumptions by giving contextual detail (not dick measuring) that shows why your assumptions are wrong. If you take that as condescended, that says more about your insecurities than anything, as you felt the need to bat it back with a 'I studied it too/my dad is bigger than your dad' type response.

As for the editing, I simply changed what is written to include the things I wanted to say. Nothing more. I think Dirty Loops are technically and theoretically brilliant as I mentioned but IMO (as I mentioned) think they lack musicianship due to their lack of musical maturity. They have a very 'musical student' approach which I imagine we've both experienced throughout our studies, whereby players try to include all the ideas , theories and techniques they're exploring and cram it into a short song and often overdo it. I know the pupils I teach often do this and I often have nostalgic moments and remember when I was in that position. It's not a negative thing. We've all been at a point where we think playing as fast/as technically as possible is the height of musicianship. Some people never get there. Some people get there and decide it's not for them and become groove players. Some people get there and love it and build careers on it. There's no right or wrong. I just don't dig it.

[BassTractor]

The condescending was in your original post, though indeed you did try and use your studiedness as an argument from authority and thus as a crowbar.
My response was meant to show you the crowbar did not work on me, and I was having a bit of fun with your studiedness.
However, afterwards I realised that you might misconstrue it as entering the pissing contest that you had started, and I certainly did not want to enter such a contest, so I deleted it, but sadly too late.

[xilddx]

[quote name='skej21' timestamp='1398021133' post='2429656']
Technically and theoretically brilliant but lacks so much maturity of musicianship in my opinion. The lack of feel, emotion, dynamic range, groove and most importantly, space is just astounding to me. Also, IMO music should be enjoyed by an audience not create a platform to exhibit sterile technical exercises best kept for the practice room.

What's the point in learning the depths of music theory and becoming so technically adept if you have nothing to say and can't communicate a meaningful message to an audience?
[/quote]

You know, I agree with Bass Tractor, and after his comments about your diatribe you then go on to tell him not to make assumptions about you, that he knows nothing about you - which is precisely what you have done in your musicologist's panning of the band and their music. They look like they are having a f***ing blast to me, they are communicating what they enjoy doing, how in god's name do YOU know they have nothing to say, that they have no 'meaningful message'? As to your comments about maturity and musicianship, and what music 'should be' -how patronising, how misguided and how judgmental. A LOT of people love what they do, including me.

Now, please tell us WHY musicians have to communicate a 'meaningful message' to an audience.

[xilddx]

[quote name='BassTractor' timestamp='1398031441' post='2429778']
The condescending was in your original post, though indeed you did try and use your studiedness as an argument from authority and thus as a crowbar.
My response was meant to show you the crowbar did not work on me, and I was having a bit of fun with your studiedness.
However, afterwards I realised that you might misconstrue it as entering the pissing contest that you had started, and I certainly did not want to enter such a contest, so I deleted it, but sadly too late.
[/quote]
Yes.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Diablo' timestamp='1398027912' post='2429738']
Have they changed drummers in the last year or so? I rememeber listening/watching some of their shred stuff a good while ago and thinking that the bass was very talented, but ultimately way over the top and unnecessary, and the drummer was crap. It seems the drummer has either changed or improved, and the rest is the same. Just because you CAN play every note on the fretboard at 250bpm does not mean you NEED to in every single song you play, original or not.

I never did work out if the bassists was male, female or eunuch though.
[/quote]

It's the same drummer.

Gender stereotyping is not cool.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1398073549' post='2430040']
how in god's name do YOU know they have nothing to say, that they have no 'meaningful message'? As to your comments about maturity and musicianship, and what music 'should be' -how patronising, how misguided and how judgmental.
[/quote]

+1

I personally find it bizzare the people can claim to make some objective judgement on whether any peice of music is played with "emotion" or "feel".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4niz8TfY794 (thanks to xilddx for posting this a while ago) - if mathematics can evoke emotion in the listener, where does that leave such claims ?.

[BassTractor]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1398073549' post='2430040']
Now, please tell us WHY musicians have to communicate a 'meaningful message' to an audience.
[/quote]

Ha! This is fun and interesting, and the perfect time for me to admit that I was holding Skej's type of side just weeks or months ago on the Dutch bass forum, where somebody had posted a vid that did nothing for me.
Now I hope I wasn't using Skej's line of thought exactly, but, like him, I did indeed question where the expressing of a meaningful musical message was in that vid.

Here, there are two things as far as I can see:
- Some people will hear what others won't.
I didn't hear the conveying of a musical message in that other vid, but others may well have. Certain is that many forum members expressed their appreciation for the vid.
The Dirty Loops vid OTOH gave me strong musical pleasure whilst failing do do anything for many others. I felt I kinda got what they were on about, and as said I enjoyed this stronger than anything else the last months - for its musical "message". The notion that it was fast or technical or 80s or whatever did not enter the picture. Nor did the synth sound that I've hated since the 80s.

- Must there be a meaningful musical message?
I thought there has to be, but was refinedly corrected on that other forum. Meaningful musical message is all fine and dandy, but just having fun with some well known chords and rhythms has its place too.


When all is said and done, any music that has value to someone is indeed valuable.
One can analyse it on its formal capacities, and express more or less informed views about it.
One can not (or should not) make a judgment from above and state that there exists no meaningful musical message after just having been told others experience exactly that meaningful message.
If one does anyway, one risks being the apologist who claims the surgeon's sewing thread is sterile, and who, when someone rightly points out there are germs in the middle, rejoices in a "Even better! This sewing thread now has TWO bits that are sterile!"

(
- "But ... but ... there are germs there and there as well ... !?!?"
- "FOUR!"
)


BTW, after having heard these two vids, I went on and investigated Dirty Loops some more. The upcoming album seems to have a lot of fun stuff, but I also got the impression the band have a somewhat limited scope, approaching many tracks the very same way. I can probably strongly enjoy each single track, but would probably be hard pressed to listen to a whole album in one sitting.
That said, when the album is released, they may still convince me that my first impression of it is wrong.


Edit: spelling

Edited April 21, 2014 by BassTractor

[skej21]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1398073549' post='2430040']


You know, I agree with Bass Tractor, and after his comments about your diatribe you then go on to tell him not to make assumptions about you, that he knows nothing about you - which is precisely what you have done in your musicologist's panning of the band and their music. They look like they are having a f***ing blast to me, they are communicating what they enjoy doing, how in god's name do YOU know they have nothing to say, that they have no 'meaningful message'? As to your comments about maturity and musicianship, and what music 'should be' -how patronising, how misguided and how judgmental. A LOT of people love what they do, including me.

Now, please tell us WHY musicians have to communicate a 'meaningful message' to an audience.
[/quote]

I'm sure that everything I've written was explicitly stated as my personal opinion, meaning it's how I feel individually. I though people on this forum would see that and understand that I wasn't trying to speak on behalf of every person in the world but yourself and other members seem to have missed that point in favour of twisting what I've said in order to start an argument (which won't continue as this is the last post I'll be making) or jumping to conclusions.

If you don't agree with me, that's fine. The world would be a boring place if we all thought the same thing :-) I hope you (and bass tractor) enjoy your sunny bank holiday weekend listening to whatever you're diggin'!

[Paul S]

I don't get all this woolly pulling. If you flag up something you like and other people like it - great. No need to cross people off your xmas card list if they don't. We all like different things.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1398079975' post='2430133']...[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4niz8TfY794"]https://www.youtube....h?v=4niz8TfY794[/url] (thanks to xilddx for posting this a while ago)...[/quote]

... and thanks to you for posting it again, then..! Highly instructive, entertaining and thought-provoking. Good stuff.

[lowdown]

Just listened again (after a few months).
Plenty of dynamics there, chorus and verse have light and shade.
Arrangement has twist and turns.
Great delivery from the players, who are right on it and in control.
Busy? maybe....(for me it's great).
But that's their style, and they are good at it.

How much theory they know, or where they studied has feck all to do with it,
There are influences from thirty years of music in the playing,
Clearly they all have a good set of ears, they listen to each other,
They bounce of each other - And seem to really enjoy it and are having fun.

I really appreciate their energy and groove.
My take on it - Does it for me.

[xilddx]

[quote name='skej21' timestamp='1398082747' post='2430188']
I'm sure that everything I've written was explicitly stated as my personal opinion, meaning it's how I feel individually. I though people on this forum would see that and understand that I wasn't trying to speak on behalf of every person in the world but yourself and other members seem to have missed that point in favour of twisting what I've said in order to start an argument (which won't continue as this is the last post I'll be making) or jumping to conclusions.

If you don't agree with me, that's fine. The world would be a boring place if we all thought the same thing :-) I hope you (and bass tractor) enjoy your sunny bank holiday weekend listening to whatever you're diggin'!
[/quote]

Those old tired cliches in defence of making forceful negative judgements about other bands and musicians don't wash with me anymore.

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]"The lack of feel, emotion, dynamic range, groove and most importantly, space is just astounding to me. Also, IMO music should be enjoyed by an audience not create a platform to exhibit sterile technical exercises best kept for the practice room." [/font][/color]This is a judgement, regardless of whether you sling IMOs in all over the place.

Edited April 21, 2014 by xilddx

[skankdelvar]

Having read the thread and its ups and downs, I was expecting some divisively experimental stuff that might cause projectile vomiting. With some foreboding, I cautiously pressed 'Play' in the anticipation that roiling time signatures, toxic blandness or cynical chop-smithery might prompt an irresistible urge to extinguish my vital spark, possibly with painkillers or a small calibre pistol.

To my great astonishment I found myself listening to a chirpy, unassuming three and a half minute pop song, distinguishable from its contemporary competitors by a musical execution of uncustomary tightness and a certain similarity of form to British Funk-Pop of the early 80's. It may lack a certain roll in its stroll, but I assume that such was the performers' intention.

It is splendid that today's young people find pleasure in composing and delivering a pop song of this type, redolent as it is of the era when cocktails, brightly coloured jackets and white shoes were the nine days wonder. Quite why a blameless little recording has excited such disapprobation as has manifested itself in the course of the forum's deliberations is beyond my comprehension. Dirty Loops' music is not to my personal taste but good luck to them.

Edited April 21, 2014 by skankdelvar

[Diablo]

It seems to be when people decide to take thing far too personally, then go on the attack by flailing wildly in all direction with a blunt keyboard, all hell breaks loose. All this over an average song posted 6 months ago, it seems that Easter has brought out the angry in some people for no known reason. Maybe being locked at home with the family, or too much chocolate, has affected the brain in some negative way.

Either way I couldn't give a sh*t. But I suppose it is politically incorrect to say that. Politics was never my thing.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Diablo' timestamp='1398097510' post='2430417']
It seems to be when people decide to take thing far too personally, then go on the attack by flailing wildly in all direction with a blunt keyboard, all hell breaks loose. All this over an average song posted 6 months ago, it seems that Easter has brought out the angry in some people for no known reason. Maybe being locked at home with the family, or too much chocolate, has affected the brain in some negative way.

Either way I couldn't give a sh*t. But I suppose it is politically incorrect to say that. Politics was never my thing.
[/quote]

Hardly all hell breaking loose is it.

And there is nothing politically incorrect about saying you don't give a sh*t.

[thisnameistaken]

For me it's like music for ADHD kids, the way they've (or some producer has) gone in and punched in little noodly bits anywhere they couldn't find a hook. And their recordings are always so glossy and 'finished', it's too neatly packaged for me. Much like the band with their teeth and their hair dos.

And the way they always present the band as playing it live irks me a bit too. Not to say they are incapable of playing the music, but it's such a studio product it's all a little too cute to suggest they tracked it in the same take whilst smiling at each other.