Anything but the Blues

[norvegicusbass]

I have just been jamming to a few drum tracks on Wikiloops ( great site ) and although I can play along quite happily to the standard twelve bar blues pattern I cant for the life of me satisfactory jam to any other chord progression. Dont get me wrong I LOVE the Blues but would love to be as fluent in other chord progressions.

When I was first learning bass as a kid virtually all the books I studied dwelt heavily on the Twelve Bar Blues and I think I might just be locked into that pattern. How can I break out of it?

[DaveFry]

Quick answer ;
Get an ear for eight-bar blues next , then the 16-bar forms come easy .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-bar_blues

[chris_b]

Start playing along to other styles, ie Delbert McClinton.

[AntLockyer]

Are you trying to be a bass player or soloist on these other progressions? Do you knwo the chord tones to the chords you are trying to jam over?

[Coilte]

[quote name='AntLockyer' timestamp='1383052473' post='2259517']
Do you knwo the chord tones to the chords you are trying to jam over?
[/quote]

+1.

OP, why cant you apply the same intervals (1,3,5, (7) etc) that you are using for playing blues, and use them in other chord progressions ? Are you familar with chord tones, arpeggios and intervals ? If not, then IMO this would be the way to go.



Here is a link to a great site that should help with all three. In this link it deals with chord tones.

[url="http://www.studybass.com/lessons/bass-chord-patterns/chord-tones-are-primary/"]http://www.studybass.com/lessons/bass-chord-patterns/chord-tones-are-primary/[/url]



When you think you have digested all the above, then move on to inversions.

Here is a link that covers these.

[url="http://www.scribd.com/doc/2087887/a-comprehensive-chord-tone-system-for-mastering-the-bass-jeff-berlin"]http://www.scribd.com/doc/2087887/a-comprehensive-chord-tone-system-for-mastering-the-bass-jeff-berlin[/url]

[norvegicusbass]

I seriously need to up my theory knowledge all this mode/chord tone stuff leaves me baffled.

[AntLockyer]

Forget modes, chord tones is really straight forward.

Each chord is made up of some notes. In blues you generally use the what is called the dominant 7 chord.

So a 12 bar blues in A would be A7, D7, E7 (I, IV, V or 1, 4, 5).

The A7 is made up of A - C# - E - G (1 - 3 - 5 - b7) or 5th fret of the E string, 4th fret of the A string, 7th fret of the A string, 5th fret of the D string.

I'm sure that is very familiar if you jam the blues already.

If you take the last note off that and just use A - C# - E that will be an A chord. So you should now by removing a note from what you already know, be able to jam on a few more chords.

[thebigyin]

[quote name='norvegicusbass' timestamp='1383067296' post='2259802']
I seriously need to up my theory knowledge all this mode/chord tone stuff leaves me baffled.
[/quote]
Me too.....but I still enjoy, must admit tho' i'm a massive 'Blues' fan and like yourself find myself jamming round a twelve bar with different styles....be it Shuffle, Funky....lol.

[Coilte]

[quote name='norvegicusbass' timestamp='1383067296' post='2259802']
I seriously need to up my theory knowledge all this mode/chord tone stuff leaves me baffled.
[/quote]

As AntLockyer said, forget about modes for the time being and concentrate on chord tones.

It is all explained (much better than I can do) in the Study Bass link I posted earlier.

My advice is to start at the beginning and go through the lessons in the order that they occur.
Each lesson builds on what went before, so there are no gaps in the learning process.

[norvegicusbass]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1383054643' post='2259556']
+1.

OP, why cant you apply the same intervals (1,3,5, (7) etc) that you are using for playing blues, and use them in other chord progressions ? Are you familar with chord tones, arpeggios and intervals ? If not, then IMO this would be the way to go.


Here is a link to a great site that should help with all three. In this link it deals with chord tones.

[url="http://www.studybass.com/lessons/bass-chord-patterns/chord-tones-are-primary/"]http://www.studybass...es-are-primary/[/url]



When you think you have digested all the above, then move on to inversions.

Here is a link that covers these.

[url="http://www.scribd.com/doc/2087887/a-comprehensive-chord-tone-system-for-mastering-the-bass-jeff-berlin"]http://www.scribd.co...ass-jeff-berlin[/url]
[/quote]

Coilte those are great sites thanks for posting.
Just one thing to further prove of my ignorance. The chord tone thing seems to imply that there are favourable notes to play for every chord and notes that should be avoided or else used sparingly as ghost notes or passing notes, have I got that right? Now I can play any variation of the favourable notes and it will "fit" so to speak the chord that is being played.

Something like memorising patterns for every chord and messing around with the order instinctively. Is that right?

So have those players who are supremely able to improvise simply committed to memory a series of patterns that they fall back on when they know what chord is being played?

This I know is a simplistic way of looking at it but have I got the gist?

[norvegicusbass]

Also, is there a site out there that you can plug in a few chords and have them play the sequence on a loop? That way I could choose a random chord progression and kind of learn how to adapt to playing along to it.

[xgsjx]

Have you got any music software on your computer?
If you know/learn how to use it, you could make your own chord sequences & loop them infinitely (or until you get bored).

Start by using some known songs' progressions. Though there's plenty of guitar/keys loops that you could use from Wikiloops.

[AntLockyer]

[quote name='norvegicusbass' timestamp='1383131995' post='2260508']he chord tone thing seems to imply that there are favourable notes to play for every chord and notes that should be avoided or else used sparingly as ghost notes or passing notes, have I got that right? Now I can play any variation of the favourable notes and it will "fit" so to speak the chord that is being played.

Something like memorising patterns for every chord and messing around with the order instinctively. Is that right?

So have those players who are supremely able to improvise simply committed to memory a series of patterns that they fall back on when they know what chord is being played?

This I know is a simplistic way of looking at it but have I got the gist?
[/quote]

That is exactly the theory.

The good thing is that patterns can mean several things. either shapes on the fretboard, the actual number of steps between notes, note names, etc. etc.

Knowing all of those is going to make you more fluent, but jsut having fretboard shapes gets you 80% of the way.

I think order of emphasis of certain notes is

chord tones (notes in the actual chord)
scalar tones (the ones in the scale but not in the chord)
Chromatic (the others)

So over F major you could play nothing but F - A - C (Root, 3rd, 5th) and support the music perfectly.

Edited October 30, 2013 by AntLockyer

[norvegicusbass]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1383133075' post='2260520']
Have you got any music software on your computer?
If you know/learn how to use it, you could make your own chord sequences & loop them infinitely (or until you get bored).

Start by using some known songs' progressions. Though there's plenty of guitar/keys loops that you could use from Wikiloops.
[/quote]

Thanks for that xgsjx.

I have actually joined Wikiloops and I am busy finding out what exactly that site has to offer. In fact it was on Wikiloops that it was brought home to me how crap I am at jamming in anything other than twelve bar blues. Thus far on Wiki all I have found is backing tracks that have scant information regards chord charts. They usually just have a list of the chords and no outline of how many bars these chords play for, a little like the difference between tab and notation.

Like I say I am still looking around the site but what I need is a firm outline like:
Cm7 / / / Fm / Gm7/ Am / something like that which tells me what chords are played per bar. Wikiloops may have this but so far I havent seen it.

I guess what I am after is to be able instinctively to play something that fits with the progression, I could after hearing the loop a few times come up with a bass part but this is just getting back to the playing what you hear in your mind and it isnt instinctive or immediate. I cant imagine playing at a jam and asking my fellow musicians to play it back a few times till I can think of something LOL

Ideally I would like to be able to view a chord chart and have ideas bursting to emerge. I guess this all comes with hard work and if I am right getting certain patterns in your fingers.

As an aside, I don't play chess and was amazed at the speed chess champions played the opening few moves of a game till it was explained to me that in reality the players were playing out a kind of well trodden path that was kind of in their fingers. This was all instinct and the realm of conscious thought only came into the game once new ground was broken by whichever player played a variation.

Do Jazz and well versed session players have this kind of arsenal to fall back on? Like I said earlier is it a well remembered set of fingerings and patterns that they know will work with a chord chart they may only see briefly before they start to play?

[Coilte]

[quote name='norvegicusbass' timestamp='1383131995' post='2260508']
Coilte those are great sites thanks for posting.
Just one thing to further prove of my ignorance. The chord tone thing seems to imply that there are favourable notes to play for every chord and notes that should be avoided or else used sparingly as ghost notes or passing notes, have I got that right? Now I can play any variation of the favourable notes and it will "fit" so to speak the chord that is being played.

Something like memorising patterns for every chord and messing around with the order instinctively. Is that right?

So have those players who are supremely able to improvise simply committed to memory a series of patterns that they fall back on when they know what chord is being played?

This I know is a simplistic way of looking at it but have I got the gist?
[/quote]


Glad you find the links useful. You are not ignorent, just keen to learn. We have all been where you are now.

Basically a chord is made up of every other note 1,3,5,7 etc) of a scale. For instance the C maj scale is CDEFGAB, so the Cmaj chord would be 1,3,5 which is CEG. If we add the 7th note we get Cmaj7. The passing notes you refer to are the other notes in a scale, i.e. 2,4, and 6.

[norvegicusbass]

[quote name='AntLockyer' timestamp='1383135258' post='2260545']
That is exactly the theory.

The good thing is that patterns can mean several things. either shapes on the fretboard, the actual number of steps between notes, note names, etc. etc.

Knowing all of those is going to make you more fluent, but jsut having fretboard shapes gets you 80% of the way.

I think order of emphasis of certain notes is

chord tones (notes in the actual chord)
scalar tones (the ones in the scale but not in the chord)
Chromatic (the others)

So over F major you could play nothing but F - A - C (Root, 3rd, 5th) and support the music perfectly.
[/quote]

Sorry Ant your reply came through as I was typing

I think you have answered the questions I put forward.

[norvegicusbass]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1383135880' post='2260560']
Glad you find the links useful. You are not ignorent, just keen to learn. We have all been where you are now.

Basically a chord is made up of every other note 1,3,5,7 etc) of a scale. For instance the C maj scale is CDEFGAB, so the Cmaj chord would be 1,3,5 which is CEG. If we add the 7th note we get Cmaj7. The passing notes you refer to are the other notes in a scale, i.e. 2,4, and 6.
[/quote]

Thank you so much.

One day I swear all of Basschat world will hear one almighty sound of a slapped palm on forehead coming from the direction of Tyneside once the penny finally drops in all this.

[Coilte]

Another good thing to get your head around is harmonising the major scale. This means playing every chord in the scale. To do this, we do what is called "stacking thirds". We will write out the C maj scale and work from the bottom up, stacking thirds as we go. This means we take the third note from the line below and start a new line with that.




GABCDEF
EFGABCD
CDEFGAB

Now, if we read from the bottom up from left to right, it gives us the diatonic (using notes only found in the given scale) chords for the C maj scale.

So, the first line on the left from the bottom up, is CEG which is C maj. The next line is DFA which D minor, etc

If we were to add another line on top of the above ones, this would give us the 7ths.

[Coilte]

[quote name='norvegicusbass' timestamp='1383136289' post='2260570']
Thank you so much.

One day I swear all of Basschat world will hear one almighty sound of a slapped palm on forehead coming from the direction of Tyneside once the penny finally drops in all this.
[/quote]

The trick is to take it in small steps. Dont spend hours at a time sweating over it. Include some basic theory in your practice schedule (15 to 20 minutes) every day. With a little time and patience, the penny will definately drop.

[norvegicusbass]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1383136882' post='2260584']
Another good thing to get your head around is harmonising the major scale. This means playing every chord in the scale. To do this, we do what is called "stacking thirds". We will write out the C maj scale and work from the bottom up, stacking thirds as we go. This means we take the third note from the line below and start a new line with that.




GABCDEF
EFGABCD
CDEFGAB

Now, if we read from the bottom up from left to right, it gives us the diatonic (using notes only found in the given scale) chords for the C maj scale.

So, the first line on the left from the bottom up, is CEG which is C maj. The next line is DFA which D minor, etc

If we were to add another line on top of the above ones, this would give us the 7ths.
[/quote]


Thanks Coilte I see from your tag that you like/play Jazz are there any books you could recommend that would put all this in laymans terms that I could practice?

Edited October 30, 2013 by norvegicusbass

[Coilte]

[quote name='norvegicusbass' timestamp='1383137488' post='2260598']
Thanks Coilte I see from your tag that you like/play Jazz are there any books you could recommend that would put all this in laymans terms that I could practice?
[/quote]

A book that I always recommend is Hal Leonard's "Bass Method Book". There are three volumes and it is possible to get all three in one spiral bound edition. Each comes with a CD. There is little or no tabs in these books, which IMO is a major plus. This book combined with maybe the Study Bass site, should be all you need for quite a while. If I can be of any more help, feel free to P.M me.


[url="http://www.amazon.com/Leonard-Bass-Method-Easy-Use/dp/0793563836"]http://www.amazon.co...e/dp/0793563836[/url]


EDIT : another book that springs to mind is "Bass Guitar for Dummies". Never mind the "D" word. It is a great book and might be available in your local library.

Edited October 30, 2013 by Coilte

[norvegicusbass]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1383138122' post='2260609']
A book that I always recommend is Hal Leonard's "Bass Method Book". There are three volumes and it is possible to get all three in one spiral bound edition. Each comes with a CD. There is little or no tabs in these books, which IMO is a major plus. This book combined with maybe the Study Bass site, should be all you need for quite a while. If I can be of any more help, feel free to P.M me.


[url="http://www.amazon.com/Leonard-Bass-Method-Easy-Use/dp/0793563836"]http://www.amazon.co...e/dp/0793563836[/url]


EDIT : another book that springs to mind is "Bass Guitar for Dummies". Never mind the "D" word. It is a great book and might be available in your local library.
[/quote]
Thanks very much for your time.

[xgsjx]

Don't beat yourself up about how to jam. Start off simple & things will progress.
A simple root note can soon develop & become a riff or a walking bass line over time.
The best way (& probably the only way) to learn how to jam & come up with things off the cuff is through experience & jamming with other musicians.
I started on 12 bar blues too (some 30 or so years ago). Learn Rock, Pop & Jazz (which isn't far away from blues with a lot of the theories, scales & progressions).

Colite's given you some good resources there & you'd be wise to look here if you haven't already...

http://basschat.co.uk/forum/31-theory-and-technique/

& there might be something in here that you can jam to...

http://basschat.co.uk/forum/41-groove-library/

The important bit... Have fun!

[norvegicusbass]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1383140765' post='2260661']
Don't beat yourself up about how to jam. Start off simple & things will progress.
A simple root note can soon develop & become a riff or a walking bass line over time.
The best way (& probably the only way) to learn how to jam & come up with things off the cuff is through experience & jamming with other musicians.
I started on 12 bar blues too (some 30 or so years ago). Learn Rock, Pop & Jazz (which isn't far away from blues with a lot of the theories, scales & progressions).

Colite's given you some good resources there & you'd be wise to look here if you haven't already...

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/forum/31-theory-and-technique/"]http://basschat.co.u...-and-technique/[/url]

& there might be something in here that you can jam to...

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/forum/41-groove-library/"]http://basschat.co.u...groove-library/[/url]

The important bit... Have fun!
[/quote]
Thank you. Yeah I am having fun. I love playing the bass but I wish I had stuck at it all those years ago as a thirteen year old. I am forty seven now still in love with music but still a newbie despite my age. Thanks to all that have tried to help me your efforts are greatly appreciated

[Coilte]

[quote name='norvegicusbass' timestamp='1383141546' post='2260678']
I wish I had stuck at it all those years ago as a thirteen year old. I am forty seven now still in love with music but still a newbie despite my age.
[/quote]

I am in almost the same boat as yourself. I jammed with friends when in my teens, then life got in the way.

I only seriously took up the bass again about seven years ago.......aged 50. Only then, did I delve into basic theory, like you are doing now. So, age does not make much of a difference, once you are keen to learn and are having fun doing so.

Better late than never....eh ?