The Illusion of Vintage Fender Value

[Grangur]

Yawnnnn.... if you want to make money with Fender, buy shares in the company, don't buy a bass.

[The Dark Lord]

Does a guitar or bass [i]really[/i] get better or sound better with age?

You may get more accustomed to it and it might "fit" you better, the more you get used to it. You might also get to hone the set up of it to your taste over time. But I very much doubt if it ever sounds "better" the older it gets. I suspect it will sound the same for most of its life until the components malfunction and it then will sound worse - or different when you have to change the bits.

So, in my book, it should never be worth more than the money you paid for it in the first place.

[KiOgon]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1383640053' post='2266778']
This is the 1963 Selmer Catalogue:

[url="http://s1128.photobucket.com/user/h4ppyjack/library/Other%20music%20related/Selmer%20Catalogue%201963"]http://s1128.photobu...atalogue%201963[/url]
[/quote]1963 IIRC - I got 7/-6 for my paper round, 5 days a week about 6:30 - 7:30 AM & 10/- for Saturday morning butchers shop delivery, 8:00 - 12:00.

Loved every minute saving up for bits to build my first bass

[molan]

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1383642952' post='2266817']
Does a guitar or bass [i]really[/i] get better or sound better with age?

You may get more accustomed to it and it might "fit" you better, the more you get used to it. You might also get to hone the set up of it to your taste over time. But I very much doubt if it ever sounds "better" the older it gets. I suspect it will sound the same for most of its life until the components malfunction and it then will sound worse - or different when you have to change the bits.

So, in my book, it should never be worth more than the money you paid for it in the first place.
[/quote]

I think the answer to this is a fairly simple yes.

Instruments definitely change in tone as they age, whether this change has a tangible value depends on what someone is looking for. E.G. One person's mellow is another's dull or someone's clean and crisp is another's harsh.

Anything vintage, and of decent quality, will eventually rise to a value greater than when it was first purchased. That's just the simple economics of inflation.

[1970]

hey guys, money isn't everything.

[EBS_freak]

Bought new for $14,500 in 1967



Sold $27.5 million 2013.

Sorry, what's this talk of basses?

[The Dark Lord]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1383645989' post='2266875']
I think the answer to this is a fairly simple yes.

Instruments definitely change in tone as they age, whether this change has a tangible value depends on what someone is looking for. E.G. One person's mellow is another's dull or someone's clean and crisp is another's harsh.

Anything vintage, and of decent quality, will eventually rise to a value greater than when it was first purchased. That's just the simple economics of inflation.
[/quote]

I just don't agree with this point of view. There is no way of measuring this unless you have recorded the sound years ago on comparable equipment and compare it to today's sound.

Where can the proof be?

If someone claims that their instrument has changed and improved in sound over the years .......... they are forgetting that their own ears will change as they get older.

I just don't believe it. It's a myth to me which people go along with for all sorts of reasons.

Poppycock for other people - I think.

But you are untitled to your view just as much as me.

[The Dark Lord]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1383648864' post='2266924']
Bought new for $14,500 in 1967



Sold $27.5 million 2013.

Sorry, what's this talk of basses?
[/quote]

And, it will be outrun, out handled and out everythinged by a decent new 3 Series which would set you back about £25K nowadays.

It only looks good. In every other respect, new is better. Just like bass guitars.

[Conan]

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1383653947' post='2267004']
And, it will be outrun, out handled and out everythinged by a decent new 3 Series which would set you back about £25K nowadays.

It only looks good. In every other respect, new is better. Just like bass guitars.
[/quote]

True, possibly. But wouldn't the world be a sadder place if everyone only bought new things? Not all new things are "better". They may be more "fit for purpose", but that is only one aspect of how good something is perceived to be.

Edited November 5, 2013 by Conan

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1383653947' post='2267004']
And, it will be outrun, out handled and out everythinged by a decent new 3 Series which would set you back about £25K nowadays.

It only looks good. In every other respect, new is better. Just like bass guitars.
[/quote]

Question, which would you rather have in your garage? Any why?

I get your BMW point... but it won't be a pristine Ferrari 275 GTB Spider, of which there were a limited number to begin with and very few in the condition above, that's if they are still with us. Its a piece of history when cars like this weren't made on automated production lines, with computers etc... it's about the car that was made at that time by arguably the best sportscar makers in the world. Oh... and BMWs can be seen ten a penny on the roads.

The same could be said almost anything. Technology has advanced... but why is the Spitfire, Vulcan etc.. held in such high esteem? Especially when they are fundamentally crap compared to what is out there today? It's what they stand for and the nostalgic value which they bring.

Why do antiques command such a price? Rarity, desirability... and who they were made and when they were made. There are so many factors that it's difficult to quantify.

Same goes with basses. Old vintage basses... made by craftsmen as opposed to computers. The romantic notion that they may have been touched by Leo Fender himself. Who knows... but they were considered the pinacle of instruments back in their day and they have since become iconic.

There is something to be said about the difference in tone between new and old basses. The construction of the pickups alone, e.g. the magnets, the wire... all were different back then. Does it make the tone better or worse? Well, who knows... all we do know is that it's not comparable to what we've got going on now with the super high precision machines that make the components and wind the pickups. Moving onto the interconnecting wire between the pots, the lead based solder, the capacitors - they are all different to what is out there now... and as a consequence has some novelty value and hence add to the desireability of an old instrument.

Whatever the reason, they are of limited supply and there is a market for them... hence the prices are only going to go up.

Edited November 5, 2013 by EBS_freak

[molan]

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1383653764' post='2267000']
I just don't agree with this point of view. There is no way of measuring this unless you have recorded the sound years ago on comparable equipment and compare it to today's sound.

Where can the proof be?

If someone claims that their instrument has changed and improved in sound over the years .......... they are forgetting that their own ears will change as they get older.

I just don't believe it. It's a myth to me which people go along with for all sorts of reasons.

Poppycock for other people - I think.

But you are untitled to your view just as much as me.
[/quote]

This genuinely made me laugh out loud, and very little on BassChat does that.

I'm sure the zillions of threads about what happens to a guitar and its electronic components as they age and change tonally must all be incorrect but I guess all those experts in the business just have a different opinion to you.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1383655746' post='2267051']
This genuinely made me laugh out loud, and very little on BassChat does that.

I'm sure the zillions of threads about what happens to a guitar and its electronic components as they age and change tonally must all be incorrect but I guess all those experts in the business just have a different opinion to you.
[/quote]

But he's got a point. I would have thought that for a solid electric instrument there is more chance that your hearing changes more than anything caused by the "ageing" of the wood. Pickups though do go through significant changes as the magnets in them become weaker with age. Of course whether any of these changes make the instrument better is entirely subjective, but I can't help but feel that a good deal of these "improvements" with age are being viewed with rose and mojo tinted glasses (and hearing aids).

[BigRedX]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1383655648' post='2267048']
Same goes with basses. Old vintage basses... made by craftsmen as opposed to computers. The romantic notion that they may have been touched by Leo Fender himself. Who knows... but they were considered the pinacle of instruments back in their day and they have since become iconic.
[/quote]

But most of them weren't made by craftsmen were they? They were made by machines operated by relatively unskilled workers (certainly compared with Gibson and Rickenbacker). That was the whole USP of Fender instruments. And to be honest when it comes to mass-produced musical instruments, IMO the more that can be done by machine the less by just above minimum wage labour the better. And I defy anyone to tell me that the quality of machining done by a modern CNC process is inferior to the pin routers of the past.

[Billy Apple]

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1383653947' post='2267004']
And, it will be outrun, out handled and out everythinged by a decent new 3 Series which would set you back about £25K nowadays.

It only looks good. In every other respect, new is better. Just like bass guitars.
[/quote]

Agreed. And that is why I'm enjoying my new Coronado so much.

[molan]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1383656387' post='2267075']
But he's got a point. I would have thought that for a solid electric instrument there is more chance that your hearing changes more than anything caused by the "ageing" of the wood. Pickups though do go through significant changes as the magnets in them become weaker with age. Of course whether any of these changes make the instrument better is entirely subjective, but I can't help but feel that a good deal of these "improvements" with age are being viewed with rose and mojo tinted glasses (and hearing aids).
[/quote]

Working in a music shop from time to time allows me to hear lots and lots of different basses of all ages.

Older ones sound different to newer ones. This is an inescapable fact. Obviously this could be because of different construction methods and materials but people like Fender have spent a fortune trying to replicate the tone of a vintage instrument and they simply can't do it.

The best aged Custom Shop bass does not sound like a real early 60's bass however much Fender try to use artificially aged wood and original hand-wound, and then 'aged' pickup construction methods.

Wood, that isn't entirely enclosed in a thick poly coat, will react to changes in temperature and basic stuff like playing time. The resonant tones of the body and neck will adjust over time and change the core sound of the bass.

Pickup winding degradation also has a huge effect in how a bass sounds from when it was first made. A simple demonstration of this would be to hear an original '60's pickup and then listen to it after it's been re-wound using, as close as possible, vintage style hand winding.

To say that old instruments don't change with age is going against pretty much everything that's been said by experts for many years - I'd have to include some astonishingly good musicians amongst these. I find it hard to accept that every single one of these people have said it for some sort of personal gain or because they are all wearing the same rose-tinted specs.


Here's a view from someone who should know - Juan Alderete:

[size=4][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]"[color=#000000]Now that I look back at many of the basses I’ve owned – from expensive Wal basses to Tobias 5 stringers; from Lakland USA models to Fenders, I’ve pretty much come to the conclusion that I’m a vintage bass player, most of the time. I own a handful of vintage Fenders and they all sound better than all the basses I have owned over the years, but the question remains…do they sound better because they are old? Does time have anything to do with the sound from these instruments?[/color][/font][/size]

[size=4][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][color=#000000]There may be some truth to the idea that the wood dries out over time, making the bass sound more pronounced and have more focussed clarity. This could be the result that the wood also hardens and reflects the sound waves from the string with more resonance. I have also heard that time affects the relationship of the wood with the neck and body. The two, separate pieces of wood become more harmonious from all the years of vibrations going through them. I’ve also read that that relationship has good years and bad, so a vintage bass can sound great one year and but not so much the next.[/color][/font][/size]

[size=4][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][color=#000000][b]From my personal experience, [/b]I can tell you is that my vintage basses sound great, and[b] my 1964 Jazz bass sounds better than it did when I first acquired it in 1994[/b]. I’ve used it on multiple recordings (as you can hear from my bass solo on [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2C0F7eFxhXM"]Day Of The Baphomets[/url]) and I’m always amazed at how much more defined the notes sound, and how the overall low end delivers such a deep and expressive tone. I can say, without question, that it’s my favorite bass."[/color][/font][/size]

Edited November 5, 2013 by molan

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1383656705' post='2267085']
But most of them weren't made by craftsmen were they? They were made by machines operated by relatively unskilled workers (certainly compared with Gibson and Rickenbacker). That was the whole USP of Fender instruments. And to be honest when it comes to mass-produced musical instruments, IMO the more that can be done by machine the less by just above minimum wage labour the better. And I defy anyone to tell me that the quality of machining done by a modern CNC process is inferior to the pin routers of the past.
[/quote]

You've skipped the point. It's the fact they were made by hand... made with techniques and materials that don't apply today. As for craftsmen, well, it depends upon your definition of craftsmen... perhaps more accurate would have been to said made by people with the level of expertise required in order to do their job to a high standard. I say high standard because the standard of the Fenders of that era were recognised of being significantly better than the competition.

So, yeah, handmade. Of course it's not as precise. Of course there is more chance of imperfections... but in some ways, that only adds to the value more. Get an old P bass with no imperfections and it's more rare... or get one that is a solid colour where the paint has worn away and got a sunburst underneath. That bass now has a story... adding to its value.

This is all something that isn't done the same today... so dress it up appropriately and you have a market.

As for the CNC routers... have you seen some of the sh1t that comes from Fender nowadays?

I'm not saying that these basses are worth their money or not. Would I like one? Probably. Would I play it? Probably not. Same as I would like that Ferrari. Would I drive it as my daily driver? Probably not.

[The Dark Lord]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1383655746' post='2267051']
This genuinely made me laugh out loud, and very little on BassChat does that.

I'm sure the zillions of threads about what happens to a guitar and its electronic components as they age and change tonally must all be incorrect but I guess all those experts in the business just have a different opinion to you.
[/quote]

Laugh it up. How can you tell that the old bass you are holding sounds better than it did 40 years ago? You and your present ears weren't around then. So you don't actually know.

If you are saying that old basses generally sound better - then I say there will be plenty more old basses that sound terrible than good.

If you are being specific to the bass you are holding at any one time ...... "this old bass sounds great and has matured over the years" then you are being subjective to [i]that[/i] bass alone. How do you know that the bass you are holding didn't sound that good all those years before?

In short, you don't.

If you go to a shop with a load of Precisions, and play them all, you'll find they are all more or less the same but subtly different. There will be a consistency of tone in a way, but you will find one you're not so keen on and you may well find one which makes you grin. It has that certain something. A glueing accident? A particular piece of wood with good resonant properties. I think THAT is what you're noticing when you say an old bass sounds good. That one probably ALWAYS sounded good - and that's why it is still around as someone thought it worth keeping.

Experts shmexperts. There is no reason to pay more for a bass than the current list price of a new one. In my opinion.

[The Dark Lord]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1383655648' post='2267048']
Question, which would you rather have in your garage? Any why?

I get your BMW point... but it won't be a pristine Ferrari 275 GTB Spider, of which there were a limited number to begin with and very few in the condition above, that's if they are still with us. Its a piece of history when cars like this weren't made on automated production lines, with computers etc... it's about the car that was made at that time by arguably the best sportscar makers in the world. Oh... and BMWs can be seen ten a penny on the roads.

The same could be said almost anything. Technology has advanced... but why is the Spitfire, Vulcan etc.. held in such high esteem? Especially when they are fundamentally crap compared to what is out there today? It's what they stand for and the nostalgic value which they bring.

Why do antiques command such a price? Rarity, desirability... and who they were made and when they were made. There are so many factors that it's difficult to quantify.

Same goes with basses. Old vintage basses... made by craftsmen as opposed to computers. The romantic notion that they may have been touched by Leo Fender himself. Who knows... but they were considered the pinacle of instruments back in their day and they have since become iconic.

There is something to be said about the difference in tone between new and old basses. The construction of the pickups alone, e.g. the magnets, the wire... all were different back then. Does it make the tone better or worse? Well, who knows... all we do know is that it's not comparable to what we've got going on now with the super high precision machines that make the components and wind the pickups. Moving onto the interconnecting wire between the pots, the lead based solder, the capacitors - they are all different to what is out there now... and as a consequence has some novelty value and hence add to the desireability of an old instrument.

Whatever the reason, they are of limited supply and there is a market for them... hence the prices are only going to go up.
[/quote]

I agree it looks great and has loads of mojo - and if wanted an ornament in my garage for people to look at it would win hands down. But it won't be that great a car to drive by today's standards. The brakes will be wooden and it won't go that well.

[molan]

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1383657721' post='2267113']
Laugh it up. How can you tell that the old bass you are holding sounds better than it did 40 years ago? You and your present ears weren't around then. So you don't actually know.

If you are saying that old basses generally sound better - then I say there will be plenty more old basses that sound terrible than good.

If you are being specific to the bass you are holding at any one time ...... "this old bass sounds great and has matured over the years" then you are being subjective to [i]that[/i] bass alone. How do you know that the bass you are holding didn't sound that good all those years before?

In short, you don't.

If you go to a shop with a load of Precisions, and play them all, you'll find they are all more or less the same but subtly different. There will be a consistency of tone in a way, but you will find one you're not so keen on and you may well find one which makes you grin. It has that certain something. A glueing accident? A particular piece of wood with good resonant properties. I think THAT is what you're noticing when you say an old bass sounds good. That one probably ALWAYS sounded good - and that's why it is still around as someone thought it worth keeping.

Experts shmexperts. There is no reason to pay more for a bass than the current list price of a new one. In my opinion.
[/quote]

I'm actually still chuckling. I genuinely can't believe that you think the hundreds of experts on guitar ageing and tone are all universally wrong and that you are right. I guess it takes all sorts. . .

So I assume you are saying that a highly respected player like Juan Alderete who has specifically said his bass sounds better now than when he bought it in 1994 is also wrong?

This is a guy who can actually go back to his master tapes of recording and hear the differences (or maybe he's hearing different recording techniques?).

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1383657905' post='2267120']
I agree it looks great and has loads of mojo - and if wanted an ornament in my garage for people to look at it would win hands down. But it won't be that great a car to drive by today's standards. The brakes will be wooden and it won't go that well.
[/quote]

And there's your market.

"Hey guys, I bought this early 60s Fender...sits on my wall for me to gawp at."

And that's the reality for most of these basses that are bought.

Funny you say, "But it won't be that great a car to drive by today's standards" - I know many Classic Car enthusiasts that love their cars because they don't drive to the standards of todays, safe, unexciting in comparison, cars.

[chris_b]

Don't bother, Barrie.

[The Dark Lord]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1383658129' post='2267125']
I'm actually still chuckling. I genuinely can't believe that you think the hundreds of experts on guitar ageing and tone are all universally wrong and that you are right. I guess it takes all sorts. . .

So I assume you are saying that a highly respected player like Juan Alderete who has specifically said his bass sounds better now than when he bought it in 1994 is also wrong?

This is a guy who can actually go back to his master tapes of recording and hear the differences (or maybe he's hearing different recording techniques?).
[/quote]

That well-known bass player called who? I've been playing Precisions probably just as long as he has. What makes his thoughts on the sound of a Precision any better than mine?

[The Dark Lord]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1383658220' post='2267128']
And there's your market.

"Hey guys, I bought this early 60s Fender...sits on my wall for me to gawp at."

And that's the reality for most of these basses that are bought.

Funny you say, "But it won't be that great a car to drive by today's standards" - I know many Classic Car enthusiasts that love their cars because they don't drive to the standards of todays, safe, unexciting in comparison, cars.
[/quote]

Yep. I agree with all of what you say there. Some people like old stuff. I like more of the modern angle to everything. Things ain't like they used to be (thank heavens ...... IMO).

Edited November 5, 2013 by The Dark Lord

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1383658313' post='2267133']
That well-known bass player called who? I've been playing Precisions probably just as long as he has. What makes his thoughts on the sound of a Precision any better than mine?
[/quote]

Billy Sheehan who?

Anyway, as an aside, I haven't really got much interest in old guitars as I generally can't get the action where I need them to be and fret dressing the freck out of them isn't going to do anything towards their value.

But what I will say, I have a Taylor guitar that I bought best part of 10 years ago. I played it for about 6 months but started playing more and more bass so the Taylor has been left in it's case. About 3 or 4 months ago, my pine coloured Taylor is now a honey coloured Taylor and has developed more bass acoustically.

The main problem with the Taylor for me, is that it always sounded great plugged in but pretty much trebly and lifeless acoustic wise... hence I started looking at Collings and Maton before I gave up on the idea completely. It's sounds better now in the bass then it has ever done - I understand my hearing could have changed... but it's definitely sounding better now than I remember it... and when I pick up new Taylors in the shop, they all have that lacking in the bass that I seem to remember... Something changed... wouldn't like to quantify how much though.

[Dingus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asM056FLmg0