The Illusion of Vintage Fender Value

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1383658495' post='2267137']
Yep. I agree with all of what you say there. Some people like old stuff. I like more of the modern angle to everything. Things ain't like they used to be (thank heavens ...... IMO).
[/quote]

And there you go, just because one man likes new, there will always be the next man who wants the latest and greatest. I'm sure there are many people like me who would be thrilled to have an original Atari 2600 games console in their living room... whereas kids of today just wouldn't get it.

[MoonBassAlpha]

Here is an interesting article by Stuart Ward, respected amp designer and owner of the company that made Sessionette amps:

[url="http://www.award-session.com/pdfs/Why%20do%20many%20old%20guitars%20sound%20mellower%20than%20new%20ones.pdf"]http://www.award-session.com/pdfs/Why%20do%20many%20old%20guitars%20sound%20mellower%20than%20new%20ones.pdf[/url]

Guitar related but the theory would translate to basses too. Controversial?

[molan]

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1383658313' post='2267133']
That well-known bass player called who? I've been playing Precisions probably just as long as he has. What makes his thoughts on the sound of a Precision any better than mine?
[/quote]

You must send us a link to your Bass Player Magazine cover article:

[color=#4D4D4D][font=Gudea][size=5]



And other interviews of course:
"Juan Alderete is a name that requires little introduction...[/size][/font][/color][color=#4D4D4D][font=Gudea][size=5]




[center][/center][/size][/font][/color][color=#4D4D4D][font=Gudea][size=5]


Long time effects champion and bass player with Big Sir, Racer X & The Mars Volta to name but a few, Juan has scored his name among the bass elite during his varied career.
His approach to using effects to create textures within music has been the subject of more discussion than almost any other bass player, with forums literally covered in threads dedicated to his set up. Thankfully Juan is more than happy to share his knowledge with everyone, recently starting his own website and forum dedicated to discussing pedals and how to use them."[/size][/font][/color]

Edited November 5, 2013 by molan

[The Dark Lord]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1383659620' post='2267175']
You must send us a link to your Bass Player Magazine cover article:


[/quote]

Still doesn't answer the question on, if he has been playing Precisions for roughly the same amount of time as me, what makes his thoughts any better than mine.

There is another thought that occurs to me too. There are some people who have a vested interest in believing that old instruments are worth more ..... because they are old and better etc. Namely, people who work in shops where there may be, from time to time, second hand basses.

I am unencumbered by that vested interest.

That is all.

[molan]

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1383659931' post='2267181']
Still doesn't answer the question on, if he has been playing Precisions for roughly the same amount of time as me, what makes his thoughts any better than mine.

There is another thought that occurs to me too. There are some people who have a vested interest in believing that old instruments are worth more ..... because they are old and better etc. Namely, people who work in shops where there may be, from time to time, second hand basses.

I am unencumbered by that vested interest.

That is all.
[/quote]

I guess I would think him more of an expert because he is a seasoned professional who is extremely well respected in the wider music industry and has direct experience in recording a vintage instrument over a 19 year period and has clearly stated it has changed tone.

I think you will find that the bass shop I work at from time to time is a Fender Custom Shop dealer that will regularly own far more brand new instruments than vintage ones. At no stage have I attempted to say that vintage instruments are worth more than new ones and that people should buy them.

All i've stated is that they will increase in value from new - the example being a 60's instrument that was £200 new and is now worth more like £3,000. This is a simple fact - saying that it should still be the same price when new is just silly. For the avoidance of doubt I'm saying a 1960's bass is worth more than £200 (or whatever it actually cost at the time). As stated in an earlier post this is simple inflationary factors at play and not because of any intrinsic parts worth.

The principal gist of what I've been trying to demonstrate is that instruments change over time and many, many people have confirmed this (the PDF from Stuart Ward is another great piece of 'proof' that this is most definitely the case).

To insinuate that I'm doing this for any form of personal gain, or to defend your argument that instruments will never change in tone from the day when they were first made, is simply ludicrous.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1383657622' post='2267110']
You've skipped the point. It's the fact they were made by hand... made with techniques and materials that don't apply today. As for craftsmen, well, it depends upon your definition of craftsmen... perhaps more accurate would have been to said made by people with the level of expertise required in order to do their job to a high standard. I say high standard because the standard of the Fenders of that era were recognised of being significantly better than the competition.

So, yeah, handmade. Of course it's not as precise. Of course there is more chance of imperfections... but in some ways, that only adds to the value more. Get an old P bass with no imperfections and it's more rare... or get one that is a solid colour where the paint has worn away and got a sunburst underneath. That bass now has a story... adding to its value.
[/quote]

But as I said in my pervious post they weren't HANDMADE. They used big industrial routers and bandsaws etc. Those are machines in my book. Maybe there was more hand finishing than there is now, but the whole point of the Fender manufacturing process has always been to reduce costs and increase consistency and that was done by using machine tools as much as possible and many although primitive by CNC standards were the cutting edge wood machining technology of the day.

For me "handmade' means using hand tools and mostly non-powered. That's fine for luthiers making instruments one at a time, each one being uniquely tailored to the player's specifications, but completely unfeasible for any kind of mass production, no matter how many skilled workers you employ. It's simply not cost effective enough or fast enough to make the quantities required in the time.

And if modern musical instrument makers can't get a decent level of consistency to their product (even allowing for the fact that they are deal with a material that's not particularly consistent - wood) then IMO there is something seriously wrong with their working practices.

For me the whole point of buying a mass-produced instrument would be so I didn't have to worry about inconsistencies and quality control. I can't be doing with the accepted practice of having to try an entire shop stock of Fenders in order to find "The One". If like Fender basses then they should all be "The One".

[The Dark Lord]

I'm out of this topic. I wasn't insinuating anything incidentally. That was a wider comment not aimed at you personally. I just disagree with you on this. I don't think basses mature in sound and get better with age. You think they do. That's fine by me.

You will note that I have not said anything disparaging about you personally in this thread. I have no reason to do that. I just disagree with your view. I also disagree with the experts as you quote.

I will not speak on this subject again. There's no point. You know my views and I know yours and neither is likely to change.

I will leave you with this though. I think differently from a lot of the "experts" who you allude to.

What about Dick Fosbury.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1383662045' post='2267225']
But as I said in my pervious post they weren't HANDMADE. They used big industrial routers and bandsaws etc. Those are machines in my book. Maybe there was more hand finishing than there is now, but the whole point of the Fender manufacturing process has always been to reduce costs and increase consistency and that was done by using machine tools as much as possible and many although primitive by CNC standards were the cutting edge wood machining technology of the day.

For me "handmade' means using hand tools and mostly non-powered. That's fine for luthiers making instruments one at a time, each one being uniquely tailored to the player's specifications, but completely unfeasible for any kind of mass production, no matter how many skilled workers you employ. It's simply not cost effective enough or fast enough to make the quantities required in the time.
[/quote]

Calm down. Whether they are hand tools are power tools, they still need the human element to make them work. CNC is a completely different ball game. Stop being a pedant. All these luthiers that report to make their basses by hand... are they cutting the bodies out with a hacksaw? I think not. In this case, handmade, handcrafted, it's all semantics and pretty much irrelevant, the key point is that they were manufactured in a wildly different manner to how they are crafted today. And thats just one of the attibuting factors as to why vintage Fenders are highly desired.

[quote]
And if modern musical instrument makers can't get a decent level of consistency to their product (even allowing for the fact that they are deal with a material that's not particularly consistent - wood) then IMO there is something seriously wrong with their working practices.
[/quote]

Completely agree but they are still hitting the shelf on a daily basis.

[quote]
For me the whole point of buying a mass-produced instrument would be so I didn't have to worry about inconsistencies and quality control. I can't be doing with the accepted practice of having to try an entire shop stock of Fenders in order to find "The One". If like Fender basses then they should all be "The One".
[/quote]

Oh, for an ideal world.

Edited November 5, 2013 by EBS_freak

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1383662458' post='2267236']
I'm out of this topic. I wasn't insinuating anything incidentally. That was a wider comment not aimed at you personally. I just disagree with you on this. I don't think basses mature in sound and get better with age. You think they do. That's fine by me.

You will note that I have not said anything disparaging about you personally in this thread. I have no reason to do that. I just disagree with your view. I also disagree with the experts as you quote.

I will not speak on this subject again. There's no point. You know my views and I know yours and neither is likely to change.

I will leave you with this though. I think differently from a lot of the "experts" who you allude to.

What about Dick Fosbury.
[/quote]

Whats your view on the ageing of Status basses?

Hehehe...

[Dingus]

Reluctant as I am to become embroiled in another "are vintage Fenders better" debate , I have owned both new and numerous vintage Fenders myself , and I certainly think that a good new Fender sounds far similar to an old one than most people seem to think , but at the same time , the old ones definitely do sound a bit different . In my own experience , I would say that the difference is overwhelmingly due to the changes in the pickups rather than the wood , and I say that because whatever the preceivable differences in tone due to the aging of the wood, they are relatively insignificant in comparison to the changes in how these basses sound as the pickups degrade .

Back in the 1980's I used to wonder why I preferred the sound of early '70's Jazz Basses to early '60's ones , but now I realise it was because the pickups were usually in better shape, and now most of the early '70's ones I play have started to sound as thin and microphonic as many early '60's ones had begun to back then . So many old Fender basses pickups start to sound lousy after thirty years or so . Not all of them by any means , but what seems like a very large proportion to me . Some seem to manage to keep a decent tone and output and have a pleasant warmth that they may or may not have had when they were new , but in a great many instances , they just sound knackered to me . If someone has a good example then great , but they are getting to be few and far between . I have played a number of very expensive vintage Jazz Basses offered for sale that if I had heard played in a blindfold test I would have thought cost less than two hundred quid from Argos, no exaggeration . It has to be said , I've played one or two very good ones, too , but I still wouldnt pay upwards of five or six grand for them . I could get a very similar sound from a more robust bass at a fraction of that price , and so that is what I chose to do . Others may choose to do different , and good luck to them .

Vintage Precision pickups seem far less prone to going wonky , but it still happens . I know pickups can be rewound and otherwise repaired , but that would seem to undermine the vintage credentials of the bass if , as is claimed , it is the changing of the sound of the pickups over time that enhances the tone of these basses. It's also important to consider that there is a significant difference between sounding different and sounding better . It would be perfectly valid if someone were to prefer the tone of a new Fender Bass over an old one .

Edited November 5, 2013 by Dingus

[drTStingray]

I'm very comfortable that my favourite bass players got great bass sounds with new or newish instruments eg

Nate watts - Sir Duke - Precision not passive but through an Alembic pre amp

Nate watts - I Wish - Jazz not passive but through an Alembic pre amp

Nate Watts - Do I Do - 79 Stingray

Marcus Miller - Tutu - 77 Jazz

Boz Burrell - Feel Like Making Love and Can't Get Enough of Your Love - newish Precision fretless??

Pino Palladino - Wherever I Lay My Hat - 79 Stingray fretless

Etc etc etc

If non vintage basses were good enough for them they're good enough for me!!

And a little anecdote - I tried out a 76 Stingray in a shop in London fairly recently - played through a flip top Ampeg it sounded warm but lacking in power and the slap sound wasn't brilliant - maybe the pick up had started to suffer as Dingus said. The icing on the cake....... It didn't work at all above fret 15 - which I found out by playing a Nate Watts bass part!!

It was on sale for more than I subsequently paid for my 2010 Classic Ray which sounds every bit as warm and especially recorded especially when using the functional mutes which didn't exist on the 76.........

You are right about hearing as well. I play in a couple of bands with very aging rockers. - who claim they can only hear bass - needless to say they play excruciatingly loudly but can't hear the treble. Oh and they use vintage amps which don't project very well........

All of which is why I'm not a vintage guitar lover - fine for anyone who is but I think new instruments (like cars) are equally valid. And few people would drive a classic car day in day out!

Edited November 5, 2013 by drTStingray

[Dingus]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1383659620' post='2267175']
You must send us a link to your Bass Player Magazine cover article:





[color=#4D4D4D][font=Gudea][size=5]And other interviews of course:
"Juan Alderete is a name that requires little introduction...[/size][/font][/color]




[center][/center]



[color=#4D4D4D][font=Gudea][size=5]Long time effects champion and bass player with Big Sir, Racer X & The Mars Volta to name but a few, Juan has scored his name among the bass elite during his varied career.
His approach to using effects to create textures within music has been the subject of more discussion than almost any other bass player, with forums literally covered in threads dedicated to his set up. Thankfully Juan is more than happy to share his knowledge with everyone, recently starting his own website and forum dedicated to discussing pedals and how to use them."[/size][/font][/color]
[/quote]



I really rate Juan Aldarete as a bass player - I remember seeing him tearing it up in the early '90's in a band called The Scream - and I am always interested in what he has got to say about anything to do with playing the bass . Just to put the other side of the argument for people to consider though, I read an interview with Joe Osborn where he said that the recorded tone of his signature Lakland bass was indistinuishable to that from his 1960 prototype Fender Jazz that he had built his career on , and that the Lakland had other qualities in terms of consistancy that made it preferable to his old Fender . I know that nowadays since his split from Lakland Joe is playing a fairly straightforward Jazz Bass with a maple fingerboard made for him by the Fender Custom Shop . This is not meant as any kind of riposte or challenge to you , Barrie, but as a tool to use , are vintage Fenders really that preferable to a new equivalent ? I love old Fenders in much the same way that I love old cars , but in just the same way , I am enough aware of the pitfalls to decide that owning one is no longer for me . Probably ...

Edited November 5, 2013 by Dingus

[thebassist]

I've owned an all original '64 Jazz Bass for about fifteen years and regardless of the value I'd never sell it because of my love for it. Having said that I don't gig it anymore because I don't want to risk it being stolen and I don't record with it because my 2010 American Deluxe Jazz Bass has so much more range.

[bh2]

I'm no expert and I'm not here for an argument but I know for a fact my 62 Jazz sounds better now than it did when I bought it in 75.

I have no real explanation save for the J-Retro, defret and DiMarzio model J's... weird huh?

[molan]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1383665519' post='2267301']
I really rate Juan Aldarete as a bass player - I remember seeing him tearing it up in the early '90's in a band called The Scream - and I am always interested in what he has got to say about anything to do with playing the bass . Just to put the other side of the argument for people to consider though, I read an interview with Joe Osborn where he said that the recorded tone of his signature Lakland bass was indistinuishable to that from his 1960 prototype Fender Jazz that he had built his career on , and that the Lakland had other qualities in terms of consistancy that made it preferable to his old Fender . I know that nowadays since his split from Lakland Joe is playing a fairly straightforward Jazz Bass with a maple fingerboard made for him by the Fender Custom Shop . This is not meant as any kind of riposte or challenge to you , Barrie, but as a tool to use , are vintage Fenders really that preferable to a new equivalent ? I love old Fenders in much the same way that I love old cars , but in just the same way , I am enough aware of the pitfalls to decide that owning one is no longer for me . Probably ...
[/quote]

I don't think I've said that a vintage instrument is preferable to a new one?

All I've tried to get across is that instruments will absolutely change their tone over time. There are simply too many highly respected musicians and luthiers who've attested to this for it to be incorrect. I'd assume the degree of change may well be less with modern ones than vintage but we won't know that for 50 years

I've also said that the market value of a vintage bass will be higher than it was when it was first made simply because of the relative values of inflation. This doesn't take into account any tonal attributes or desirability. Something made 50 years ago for £50 will undoubtedly be worth more than that 50 years later (so long as it's a decent instrument in the first place). Other market factors will determine whether it's only worth £55 or £5,500 but it'll definitely be more than £50.

Whether people prefer vintage to modern is a whole different argument - I wouldn't vote either way. My two choices for my last gig were either a '63J or a Ritter Cora and they are a pretty long way apart in terms of vintage vs modern

[molan]

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1383662458' post='2267236']
I'm out of this topic. I wasn't insinuating anything incidentally. That was a wider comment not aimed at you personally. I just disagree with you on this. I don't think basses mature in sound and get better with age. You think they do. That's fine by me.

You will note that I have not said anything disparaging about you personally in this thread. I have no reason to do that. I just disagree with your view. I also disagree with the experts as you quote.

I will not speak on this subject again. There's no point. You know my views and I know yours and neither is likely to change.

I will leave you with this though. I think differently from a lot of the "experts" who you allude to.

What about Dick Fosbury.
[/quote]

I haven't said they sound any better. All I've said is that they will sound different.

I find it odd that you think a wooden instrument with magnetic windings will sound identical to the day it was made over 50 years later.

I've genuinely never heard anyone say this and that's the thing I found amusing. I just don't understand how anyone can believe this to be true.

I also don't understand how you seriously believe that something should never change in value from the day it was made either. This is just basic economics and the principles of inflation.

I think it's pretty obvious that you disagree with people who are are experts on things. . .

[LukeFRC]

RE: sounds changing….

Given that if the body was carved by hand or made by CNC - as long as it is within the same tolerances it will make little to no effect on sound (but may on how the thing feels) … I think there are two things here that we can say (reasonably and logically) could change the sound of an instrument over time….
Pickups - different pickup winding techniques, different magnets (?) and the magnetic deterioration…
and the wood…. now I'm not enough of an expert to know if a bass played over time changes the wood as it resonates (in that case a pristine 60's fender that's hardly been played wouldn't have this effect) - I think it's more likely to be the effect of being under tension for x number of years myself rather than vibrations… but hey ho - I don't know enough to argue that (and haven't been on a magazine cover either, been in the fine art section of the Skinny before…)
But I think it's true to say that the wood stocks that would have been available for building guitars in 1957 at the scale Fender were will not look much like the wood stocks available for building guitars now in the scale that Fender/Gibson/Cort et al knock them out. I doubt they are from as old or natural growth, or have been naturally dried for as long and so on.
Warwick in the early 90's had the selling point of "the sound of wood" and proudly showed off wood stacks that they kept to dry for years. It's interesting that when they increased production, and the quality was perceived to have dropped - they also stopped showing off their wood piles. I think recently they've scaled back production and started talking about how long they keep the wood to dry before they use it.

But I dunno - Molan, your wes steed bass is a blend of old bits and new wood is't it? how does that sound?

[BigRedX]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1383673510' post='2267499']
I don't think I've said that a vintage instrument is preferable to a new one?

All I've tried to get across is that instruments will absolutely change their tone over time. There are simply too many highly respected musicians and luthiers who've attested to this for it to be incorrect. I'd assume the degree of change may well be less with modern ones than vintage but we won't know that for 50 years
[/quote]

Have you get some actual audio proof of this - i.e. recordings of a bass made using the same recording equipment say 30-40 years apart?

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1383673510' post='2267499']
... There are simply too many highly respected musicians and luthiers who've attested to this for it to be incorrect ...
[/quote]
You really ought to collect some proper evidence for your claim rather than relying on the supposed authority of others. It sounds like a medieval and non-scientific plea to the knowledge of highly respected priests and scholars. It must be true because they say so. I don't think that's good enough.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1383659620' post='2267175']




[/quote]
Appearing on the cover of a magazine doesn't make you correct.

[molan]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1383676173' post='2267565']


Have you get some actual audio proof of this - i.e. recordings of a bass made using the same recording equipment say 30-40 years apart?
[/quote]

nope, I've just believed person, after person, after person, after person, after person who are highly respected and well known experts. Maybe every single one of them is wrong.

Of course I'm completely ignoring the basic laws of degradation of materials over time. I'm sure a pickup made in 1960 that has been used over and over again, had gallons of sweat poured into it, is covered in rust and crumbling foam sounds absolutely identical today to the day that it was first installed. . .

Edited November 5, 2013 by molan

[molan]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1383677058' post='2267579']

Appearing on the cover of a magazine doesn't make you correct.
[/quote]

No, but it probably gives you slightly more authority than a part time player in a pub band?

[molan]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1383676961' post='2267578']

You really ought to collect some proper evidence for your claim rather than relying on the supposed authority of others. It sounds like a medieval and non-scientific plea to the knowledge of highly respected priests and scholars. It must be true because they say so. I don't think that's good enough.
[/quote]

And where is the evidence, other than one person's opinion, that something made 50 years ago sounds identical today?

I've yet to see even a single authoritative source?

[tauzero]

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1383589852' post='2266312']
You also have to remember the world went comparatively mad in the mid 70s with soaring inflation following fuel supply issues caused by politics and war. However instrument prices didn't follow that pattern as born out by the Stingray value. As Dingus said, that happened in the 80s and indeed I sold my Stingray for significantly more than I paid for it.
[/quote]

70s Fenders were pretty cheap in the 80s - I bought my mid-70s P bass, which was somewhat cosmetically challenged, for somewhere around £200.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1383679406' post='2267634']
No, but it probably gives you slightly more authority than a part time player in a pub band?
[/quote]
No, because it is the very claim to authority which is in question.