The Illusion of Vintage Fender Value

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1383679600' post='2267636']
And where is the evidence, other than one person's opinion, that something made 50 years ago sounds identical today?
[/quote]
The evidence is at least extremely thin and very possibly non-existent. Can you produce any evidence for your claim? You haven't so far, merely claims to authority that beg the question.

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1383679600' post='2267636']
I've yet to see even a single authoritative source?
[/quote]
There is no authoritative source. Your so-called authoritative sources beg the question.

[molan]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1383680478' post='2267662']

No, because it is the very claim to authority which is in question.
[/quote]

I don't understand?

Are you saying a part time non-professional musician will have the same degree of authority as an acknowledged expert in his field with vast experience?

Just to add to his 'authority' this is a guy that people turn to when looking for help and information about 'tone'. It's not like he's just a random player who happens to get featured because he's in a famous band.

He gets featured on magazine covers, clinics and live events because he's a pretty knowledgeable guy. In fact the last time I saw him at an event I spotted Bootsy Collins, Verdine White, Vic Wooten, Steve Bailey, Brian Bromberg, Divinity Roxx, Anthony Wellington and Jonathan Herrera all watching him.

[JohnFitzgerald]

Maybe the answer's very simple.

Anything that has at least a half reasonable name when it's new will always increasingly increase in pseudo mythical status as it gets older.
There will always be some people who's prefer 'an old one' than a brand new one.

My limited budget very recently would have bought me a new Yamaha RBX170 or the 1982 Squier JV Precision that I bought.

Do they sound very similar ?
Yep.

Do they play very similar ?
Yep.

Old stuff will always be worth something. Its actually efficacy at doing the job is neither here nor there.
You buy an old one because you want to, not because it's a better tool for the job.

Edited November 5, 2013 by JohnFitzgerald

[BigRedX]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1383679339' post='2267631']
nope, I've just believed person, after person, after person, after person, after person who are highly respected and well known experts. Maybe every single one of them is wrong.

Of course I'm completely ignoring the basic laws of degradation of materials over time. I'm sure a pickup made in 1960 that has been used over and over again, had gallons of sweat poured into it, is covered in rust and crumbling foam sounds absolutely identical today to the day that it was first installed. . .
[/quote]

I only own a couple of old basses - a Burns Sonic from the early 60s that I've had since 1981 and an Overwater Original from the mid 80s that has been mine for that last 20 years. The sounds that I get out of them has changed over the years, but that's mostly down to the fact that the music I play on them has changed over the time that I've owned them and the equipment I play them through has improved massively.

In the time I've owned both basses, my ability as a musician has improved by leaps and bounds and at the same time I've become familiar with the strengths and weaknesses both sonically and from a playability PoV. However I couldn't at all say that the sound of either bass on its own has changed over the time that I've owned them and IMO it would be foolish for me to make such an assertion. If the sound has changed I would say it is as much down to me knowing better how to play the instruments then any physical change in either instrument itself.

[skej21]

[quote name='JohnFitzgerald' timestamp='1383682046' post='2267691']
Maybe the answer's very simple.

Anything that has at least a half reasonable name when it's new will always increasingly increase in pseudo mythical status as it gets older.
There will always be some people who's prefer 'an old one' than a brand new one.

My limited budget very recently would have bought me a new Yamaha RBX170 or the 1982 Squier JV Precision that I bought.

Do they sound very similar ?
Yep.

Do they play very similar ?
Yep.

Old stuff will always be worth something. Its actually efficacy at doing the job is neither here nor there.
You buy an old one because you want to, not because it's a better tool for the job.
[/quote]

I couldn't disagree with you more.

What if the best tool for the job is a pre-fender SWR amp? a '70s Kay guitar? a Stradavarius violin?

I'm pretty sure your argument would convince all professional concert violinists that they should ditch their Stradavarius for a Stentor Student II. I mean, they're just buying old for the sake of it anyway and the efficacy of the Strad at doing the job is neither here not there...

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1383681879' post='2267687']
I don't understand?

Are you saying a part time non-professional musician will have the same degree of authority as an acknowledged expert in his field with vast experience?
[/quote]
No, I'm saying that authority alone can guarantee nothing.

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1383681879' post='2267687']
Just to add to his 'authority' this is a guy that people turn to when looking for help and information about 'tone'. It's not like he's just a random player who happens to get featured because he's in a famous band.
[/quote]
I really have no grasp whatsoever of the meaning of the phrase "help and information about 'tone'". Does 'tone' in inverted commas mean something different to tone not in inverted commas? To me he is a totally random player. I don't need him to tell me about tone or 'tone' and I probably wouldn't even like his tone.

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1383681879' post='2267687']
He gets featured on magazine covers, clinics and live events because he's a pretty knowledgeable guy. In fact the last time I saw him at an event I spotted Bootsy Collins, Verdine White, Vic Wooten, Steve Bailey, Brian Bromberg, Divinity Roxx, Anthony Wellington and Jonathan Herrera all watching him.
[/quote]
So what? Lots of people look up to the Pope or to David Cameron it doesn't make them right. And many people have been on the cover of BassPlayer but they can't all be right. By the way, there are four people in that list I've not knowing heard of and two I would not intentionally listen to.

[tauzero]

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1383642952' post='2266817'] Does a guitar or bass [i]really[/i] get better or sound better with age? You may get more accustomed to it and it might "fit" you better, the more you get used to it. You might also get to hone the set up of it to your taste over time. But I very much doubt if it ever sounds "better" the older it gets. I suspect it will sound the same for most of its life until the components malfunction and it then will sound worse - or different when you have to change the bits. So, in my book, it should never be worth more than the money you paid for it in the first place. [/quote]

By that logic, Penny Blacks should be available at better than two to the new penny.

Some instruments are no longer made, whether it's the maker going out of business or the model being dropped from the range or changed. If it's a desirable instrument (for whatever reason) then the law of supply and demand will push prices up.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1383658220' post='2267128']


And there's your market.

"Hey guys, I bought this early 60s Fender...sits on my wall for me to gawp at."

And that's the reality for most of these basses that are bought.

Funny you say, "But it won't be that great a car to drive by today's standards" - I know many Classic Car enthusiasts that love their cars because they don't drive to the standards of todays, safe, unexciting in comparison, cars.
[/quote]
You called! omg a new bmw would bore me to tears compared to my modest classics I have now never mind a classic ferrari, as you know our 12 month old golf used to sit on the drive so I could take the morris to band practice everyweek

[JohnFitzgerald]

[quote name='skej21' timestamp='1383683801' post='2267726']
I couldn't disagree with you more.

What if the best tool for the job is a pre-fender SWR amp? a '70s Kay guitar? a Stradavarius violin?

I'm pretty sure your argument would convince all professional concert violinists that they should ditch their Stradavarius for a Stentor Student II. I mean, they're just buying old for the sake of it anyway and the efficacy of the Strad at doing the job is neither here not there...
[/quote]

You know what, I pretty much believe this.
A world class player will always sound good, because it's about their talent.
I don't think for a second that they can't tell the difference in quality between the student model and the Strad.

Equally, if they were forced to use the student model for some reason, most of us listening wouldn't know the difference.

When I hear Bobby Vega doing his funky pick style. It's Bobby I'm hearing, not whatever bass he's playing.

I'm sure we'll disagree on this, but that's ok, I'm cool with that

[bh2]

I found a Rembrandt and a Stradivarius in the loft the other day...

Unfortunately Rembrandt was crap at making violins and Stradivarius couldn't paint for toffee.








Apologies to Mr Cooper.

[skej21]

[quote name='JohnFitzgerald' timestamp='1383685859' post='2267759']


You know what, I pretty much believe this.
A world class player will always sound good, because it's about their talent.
I don't think for a second that they can't tell the difference in quality between the student model and the Strad.

Equally, if they were forced to use the student model for some reason, most of us listening wouldn't know the difference.

When I hear Bobby Vega doing his funky pick style. It's Bobby I'm hearing, not whatever bass he's playing.

I'm sure we'll disagree on this, but that's ok, I'm cool with that
[/quote]

I kinda agree with that sentiment. However, I do believe there's an equilibrium with any amount of talent.

No matter how talented someone is, there's a point where the tools hold back that talent.

You put Sebastian Vettel in a micra, he'll still drive like Vettel but he's not anywhere near the level of concentration, skill and talent it takes to drive an F1 at full speed.

Same with basses. I play a HUGE variety of guitars, pianos, drums and basses every single day through work and I am 100% sure that whilst I can keep my playing 'identity' on anything, playing a £70 bass guitar has drawbacks (height of action, poor pickups, poor tuning because of cheap machine heads, no shielding etc etc) that undoubtedly decreases the quality of the sound that my fingers can produce.

[molan]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1383684555' post='2267741']

No, I'm saying that authority alone can guarantee nothing.


I really have no grasp whatsoever of the meaning of the phrase "help and information about 'tone'". Does 'tone' in inverted commas mean something different to tone not in inverted commas? To me he is a totally random player. I don't need him to tell me about tone or 'tone' and I probably wouldn't even like his tone.


So what? Lots of people look up to the Pope or to David Cameron it doesn't make them right. And many people have been on the cover of BassPlayer but they can't all be right. By the way, there are four people in that list I've not knowing heard of and two I would not intentionally listen to.
[/quote]

OK people, I'm now bored with this. If you genuinely believe an instrument will not change in the way it sounds (for better or worse) after being played for 50 years then I'm not going to convince you.

Also I have a monkfish to clean and roast. I was going to use a Rick Stein method but my mate Bert has fish and chips every Saturday night from the local chippie so I'm I'm going to give him a shout because I bet he knows a better way

[risingson]

[quote name='bh2' timestamp='1383686589' post='2267770']
I found a Rembrandt and a Stradivarius in the loft the other day...

Unfortunately Rembrandt was crap at making violins and Stradivarius couldn't paint for toffee.








Apologies to Mr Cooper.
[/quote]

Love it!

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1383686699' post='2267775']
OK people, I'm now bored with this. If you genuinely believe an instrument will not change in the way it sounds (for better or worse) after being played for 50 years then I'm not going to convince you...
[/quote]
I'm bored too because I have not argued that an instrument cannot or even does not change in sound over time but you appear to think that I have claimed exactly that.

[molan]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1383687338' post='2267788']

I'm bored too because I have not argued that an instrument cannot or even does not change in sound over time but you appear to think that I have claimed exactly that.
[/quote]

http://youtu.be/mQZmCJUSC6g

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1383688974' post='2267814']
[media]http://youtu.be/mQZmCJUSC6g[/media]
[/quote]
Oh dear.

[skej21]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1383688974' post='2267814']


http://youtu.be/mQZmCJUSC6g
[/quote]

I bet that would sound exactly the same on those instruments if they played it today

Edited November 5, 2013 by skej21

[tauzero]

[quote name='skej21' timestamp='1383683801' post='2267726']I'm pretty sure your argument would convince all professional concert violinists that they should ditch their Stradavarius for a Stentor Student II. I mean, they're just buying old for the sake of it anyway and the efficacy of the Strad at doing the job is neither here not there... [/quote]

Perhaps with a Strad they should try before they buy, and spend a hundred times less...

[url="http://www.theguardian.com/music/2012/jan/02/how-many-notes-violinist-stradivarius"]http://www.theguardian.com/music/2012/jan/02/how-many-notes-violinist-stradivarius[/url] (or google "blindfold comparison stradivarius")

[tauzero]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1383686699' post='2267775'] OK people, I'm now bored with this. If you genuinely believe an instrument will not change in the way it sounds (for better or worse) after being played for 50 years then I'm not going to convince you.[/quote]

Of course it will sound different.

Change the strings, though, and it'll be a different story.

[molan]

[quote name='skej21' timestamp='1383689954' post='2267833']


I bet that would sound exactly the same on those instruments if they played it today
[/quote]

They might have a problem, not least because the, rather wonderful, T-Bone Wolk is dead

For those of you who have never heard of him (and have probably already decided they wouldn't like him anyway) he's another of those strange professional musician people with a string of hits to his name and he's credited on over 600 albums

[skej21]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1383691828' post='2267884']


They might have a problem, not least because the, rather wonderful, T-Bone Wolk is dead

For those of you who have never heard of him (and have probably already decided they wouldn't like him anyway) he's another of those strange professional musician people with a string of hits to his name and he's credited on over 600 albums
[/quote]

I was being sarcastic... I totally agree with you

[molan]

[quote name='tauzero' timestamp='1383690840' post='2267852']


Perhaps with a Strad they should try before they buy, and spend a hundred times less...

[url="http://www.theguardian.com/music/2012/jan/02/how-many-notes-violinist-stradivarius"]http://www.theguardian.com/music/2012/jan/02/how-many-notes-violinist-stradivarius[/url] (or google "blindfold comparison stradivarius")
[/quote]

I wondered when this would appear. It always comes up whenever anyone tries to compare the sound of different instruments. I've generally seen it on guitar forums to 'prove' that something like an Epiphone Les Paul sounds just the same as a Gibson.

I think the general response, just to maintain continuity, is that if someone wrote a story about a Strad sounding better than a modern violin it wouldn't really have been much of a story and would never have been published.

Of course, I know nothing about violins so who am I to say whether it was cheap piece of 'scientific' hokum published to generate publicity

[molan]

[quote name='skej21' timestamp='1383692089' post='2267893']


I was being sarcastic... I totally agree with you
[/quote]

Sorry, my bad - I was joking too

I really miss T-Bone, such a great player

Used a '64P as his #1 bass from what I recall

Edited November 5, 2013 by molan

[Stan_da_man]

How do you get that 60's P sound in a modern P? Swap the pups and put on dead strings!

*ducks*

[drTStingray]

There again Marcus Miller used a 77 Jazz which he subsequently modified - and was told he needed to get a pre CBS one at the time but liked a shiny new one better. I like a lot of stuff he's played on as well and it didn't seem to stop him getting sessions........... And he still uses it!!

The point being that this old = better tone argument's been around since the 70s and has been rejected by top pros and embraced by others over time. I don't recall many virtuosos using them. I have to say though I like joe osbornes work I had never thought his tone to be anything other than a polite Fender tone - surely this can be had, with appropriate skill, from a run of the mill Fender?

That some pros choose to play ancient instruments may be more down to them loving the instruments and having the money and desire to have them - it is also a differentiator from the masses (of regular hobbyist or aspiring musicians) for a band of young and famous musicians to use expensive vintage ones - whereas in the 60s and 70s the use of a real Fender alone was enough.

Edited November 6, 2013 by drTStingray