The Illusion of Vintage Fender Value

[Dingus]

[quote name='Chiliwailer' timestamp='1383841922' post='2269884']
I liked the quotes about the value of a vintage when bought new compared to today's inflation adjustment.

[size=4][size=5][u][b]BUT THIS IS WHERE IT HURTS....... [/b][/u][/size]I[/size]t's not about the 'cost in 1962 versus cost in 2013' that gives me sleepless nights.

It's the fact that:[list]
[*]In 1999 a shop I worked in sold a 1957 Strat for £5000, they now go for £18,000 plus
[*]In 1999 I could have bought a 1958 Precision for £3500, they now sell for double that
[*]In 1993 a shop I worked in sold a TV Yellow Les Paul Junior for £1000, now they are at least 7 times that
[*]In 2004 I bought a refinished 1964 Jazz Bass for £2200, they can now often sell for double that
[*]In 2006 a shop I worked in sold a blonde 1961 Stack Knob Jazz for £10,000, it then sold again at another shop I worked in for £18000 3 years later
[/list]
These are just a few examples.
Sleep tight.
[/quote]


It's not just vintage Fenders either . If I think about all the basses I have ever owned ,if I had kept them all , I could sell all of them now for more in real terms than payed for them , allowing for inflation .

Edited November 7, 2013 by Dingus

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1383833764' post='2269748']
Ironically this was just the sort of thing Jaco allegedly liberated bass players from.
[/quote]

In that case, can I too have my shackles back?

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1383839506' post='2269854']
Dead right , Dr T.

If you listened to the records from the Top 40 from this week exactly thirty years ago and compared it to the chart from the present day , you would be shocked at how prominent the bass guitar was back then in relation to now . The role of the bass guitar on pop records has indeed changed dramatically , and I preferred it back then . I remember regulaly getting excited about bass lines I heard on chart records in those days , whereas nowadays that is a rare occurence . Admittedly , I probably don't hear as much chart music as I did back then , but nevertheless, I am confident it is the music that has changed , not me. In the '80's teen bands like Duran Duran and Culture Club had excellent bass players, as did many pop groups like UB40 , and post -new wave rock groups like The Police ,The Pretenders , The Smiths and The Cure also had a lot of importance placed on the bass guitar in their music . Where are their modern equivalents?
[/quote]

I wouldn't worry too much it's just a phase that pop music is going through. Within 5 years bass will probably be back up in prominence although if we're not careful it will be an over-abundance of slap (so be careful what you wish for).

The thing that saddens me is the fact that all those bass sounds from to 60s and 70s that are being slavishly copied were as much a result of struggling with amplification and sting technology that was simply not up to the task of reproducing the sounds that the bassists of the time wanted. Those "young guns" currently espousing the virtues of farty Ampegs and flatwound string would do well to search out some bassist interviews from International Musician or Beat Instrumental of the time and read what musicians were really saying about the sorts of sounds they were trying to achieve.

[Dingus]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1383846704' post='2269956']
I wouldn't worry too much it's just a phase that pop music is going through. Within 5 years bass will probably be back up in prominence although if we're not careful it will be an over-abundance of slap (so be careful what you wish for).

The thing that saddens me is the fact that all those bass sounds from to 60s and 70s that are being slavishly copied were as much a result of struggling with amplification and sting technology that was simply not up to the task of reproducing the sounds that the bassists of the time wanted. Those "young guns" currently espousing the virtues of farty Ampegs and flatwound string would do well to search out some bassist interviews from International Musician or Beat Instrumental of the time and read what musicians were really saying about the sorts of sounds they were trying to achieve.
[/quote]

Great point . As I have said on this site before, people ( including myself) really can get nostalgic for [i]anything[/i]. Don't get me wrong , there is nothing wrong with vintage amps and flats as a sound in itself and I can enjoy it and see its appropiateness occasionally , but as you allude to , people talk about that sound nowadays as if it were [u][i]the[/i][/u] sound , when in fact it was a product of the limitations of a bygone age. There was good reason why most bass players started to use roundwounds.

Edited November 7, 2013 by Dingus

[tauzero]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1383692121' post='2267894']
I wondered when this would appear. It always comes up whenever anyone tries to compare the sound of different instruments. I've generally seen it on guitar forums to 'prove' that something like an Epiphone Les Paul sounds just the same as a Gibson.

I think the general response, just to maintain continuity, is that if someone wrote a story about a Strad sounding better than a modern violin it wouldn't really have been much of a story and would never have been published.

Of course, I know nothing about violins so who am I to say whether it was cheap piece of 'scientific' hokum published to generate publicity
[/quote]

So you would suggest that someone doesn't try before they buy then, and just go on the maker's name? Especially when they're spending millions of pounds?

The detail of the story isn't terribly well reported in most articles on it. The players didn't have a long time with each instrument but the identity of the instruments was fairly well concealed. I suggest that you have a read of [url="http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/03/science/in-play-off-between-old-and-new-violins-stradivarius-lags.html?_r=0"]http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/03/science/in-play-off-between-old-and-new-violins-stradivarius-lags.html?_r=0[/url] which is reasonably well-reported and then you can decide for yourself whether it appears to be fairly well scientifically performed. Suggesting that it may be "cheap piece of 'scientific' hokum published to generate publicity" shows only that you haven't bothered to find out anything about it.

[tauzero]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1383821325' post='2269467']
Maybe I'm just jaundiced from working with too many huge businesses (particularly the global pharma brands) that conduct, incredibly well researched, scientific studies in order to gain publicity or add credence to a product claim.
[/quote]

You should read Ben Goldacre's book "Bad Science". In fact, everybody should.

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='tauzero' timestamp='1383914425' post='2270715']
You should read Ben Goldacre's book "Bad Science". In fact, everybody should.
[/quote]

Damned right!

An excellent book, both very funny and deeply scary.

At least two or three times every year, there will be another scandal reported that reminds me of Goldacre's findings.

[Kiwi]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1383847678' post='2269977']
Great point . As I have said on this site before, people ( including myself) really can get nostalgic for [i]anything[/i]. Don't get me wrong , there is nothing wrong with vintage amps and flats as a sound in itself and I can enjoy it and see its appropiateness occasionally , but as you allude to , people talk about that sound nowadays as if it were [u][i]the[/i][/u] sound , when in fact it was a product of the limitations of a bygone age. There was good reason why most bass players started to use roundwounds.
[/quote]
I try rigs and basses out now and I still can't figure out how people can hear what notes they're playing, using flats and an 8x10. But I guess it makes them feel good. After owning over 30 instruments in the last 10 years, I think how instruments feel is probably the most under-rated aspect of quality.

[Twigman]

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1383915690' post='2270732']
I think how instruments feel is probably the most under-rated aspect of quality.
[/quote]
That is my number one criterion which is why I love my warmoth so much and leave my JV gathering dust

[Hutton]

I love my p basses. I love the sound and feel of the flats that I use on them. Apparently I am to be pitied for this disgraceful habit. So be it!

[Billy Apple]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1383915671' post='2270731']
Damned right!

An excellent book, both very funny and deeply scary.

At least two or three times every year, there will be another scandal reported that reminds me of Goldacre's findings.
[/quote]

If you want scary, read this..[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TGN1412"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TGN1412[/url], sorry, no vintage Fenders in here and a complete de-rail, but all the same, have a look.

[cytania]

I found this neat wikipaedia page listing Stradivarius violins;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Stradivarius_instruments#Violins

As you can see a lot of Strads are on loan to top violinists around the world. Now wouldn't it be nice if you were contacted by someone who wanted you to see you play their 62 P bass?

[Grangur]

FWIW I find it funny when folk try to draw a parallel between the maturing of a violin / cello / double-bass and the maturing of a Fender, or any other electric bass. There is no comparison - that's an undeniable scientific fact.

The violin and all other instruments constructed using a sound-box of wood, create their sound by the strings vibrating the wood of the sound box. The box is manufactured to work through the wood being under stress and vibrating to create the sound. The character of the vibration will change over the many years through drying out, penetration of beeswax, or other substances and the vibration of use. This can be scientifically proven by analysis of the wood.

The wood in the electric guitar or bass might vibrate and give some small character to the sound, but the sound is formed almost exclusively in the electronic components. Yes, the cloth and resin found in the old pickups may well have changed over the 50 years that an old bass has been in use, but there's no assurance that these materials wont fail and need replacing in another 50 years; unlike the wood of a violin that can continue to be functional unless there's an accident.

If the pickup materials in a vintage bass fail and if they can't be replicated you can be sure the value will collapse. So we may celebrate the increase in value now, but it's possible any owners of vintage basses may do well to sell now, rather than keep them to the point of failure.

It may well be true that the change in the cloth and resin in the pick-up may have changed the sound of the bass guitar, but we can't be sure as we also can't be sure we are replicating the amps and the recording technology.

What we also can't be sure of is if a bass made today will change in in the same way as the old ones did. Pickups are made differently today. So the break-down in the materials will be different. So it's very possible a bass made today will sound exactly the same in 50 years as it does today. So, sorry guys, but if you're looking at keeping your new Fender for 50 years it may well totally fail as an investment.

So past performance is no guarantee of future return on investment. IMHO

Anyway, what about "Road-worn" basses?

I can see there's an achievement in keeping a bass in mint condition for 30 years. Is there any achievement in having a bass that looks like it's been dragged behind a car round the M25 or burnt in a house fire?

[Dingus]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1384101869' post='2272756']
FWIW I find it funny when folk try to draw a parallel between the maturing of a violin / cello / double-bass and the maturing of a Fender, or any other electric bass. There is no comparison - that's an undeniable scientific fact.

The violin and all other instruments constructed using a sound-box of wood, create their sound by the strings vibrating the wood of the sound box. The box is manufactured to work through the wood being under stress and vibrating to create the sound. The character of the vibration will change over the many years through drying out, penetration of beeswax, or other substances and the vibration of use. This can be scientifically proven by analysis of the wood.

The wood in the electric guitar or bass might vibrate and give some small character to the sound, but the sound is formed almost exclusively in the electronic components. Yes, the cloth and resin found in the old pickups may well have changed over the 50 years that an old bass has been in use, but there's no assurance that these materials wont fail and need replacing in another 50 years; unlike the wood of a violin that can continue to be functional unless there's an accident.

If the pickup materials in a vintage bass fail and if they can't be replicated you can be sure the value will collapse. So we may celebrate the increase in value now, but it's possible any owners of vintage basses may do well to sell now, rather than keep them to the point of failure.

It may well be true that the change in the cloth and resin in the pick-up may have changed the sound of the bass guitar, but we can't be sure as we also can't be sure we are replicating the amps and the recording technology.

What we also can't be sure of is if a bass made today will change in in the same way as the old ones did. Pickups are made differently today. So the break-down in the materials will be different. So it's very possible a bass made today will sound exactly the same in 50 years as it does today. So, sorry guys, but if you're looking at keeping your new Fender for 50 years it may well totally fail as an investment.

So past performance is no guarantee of future return on investment. IMHO

Anyway, what about "Road-worn" basses?

I can see there's an achievement in keeping a bass in mint condition for 30 years. Is there any achievement in having a bass that looks like it's been dragged behind a car round the M25 or burnt in a house fire?
[/quote]

Someone talking sense on Basschat . How refreshing. Is that [i]really [/i]what we want , though?

Edited November 10, 2013 by Dingus

[Grangur]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1384102242' post='2272760']
Someone talking sense on Basschat . How refreshing. Is that [i]really [/i]what we want , though?
[/quote]

Oppps Sorry!!!

[risingson]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1384101869' post='2272756']
What we also can't be sure of is if a bass made today will change in in the same way as the old ones did. Pickups are made differently today. So the break-down in the materials will be different. So it's very possible a bass made today will sound exactly the same in 50 years as it does today. So, sorry guys, but if you're looking at keeping your new Fender for 50 years it may well totally fail as an investment.
[/quote]

All true apart from if the functionality of the instrument becomes a redundant feature to a collector, which is entirely possible. The inherent value of the instrument to someone like me on the other hand would be zero as I'd never own an instrument that I wouldn't play.

[Dingus]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1384102878' post='2272770']
Oppps Sorry!!!
[/quote]

It's O.K , just don't let it happen again.

[Chiliwailer]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1384101869' post='2272756']

If the pickup materials in a vintage bass fail and if they can't be replicated you can be sure the value will collapse. So we may celebrate the increase in value now, but it's possible any owners of vintage basses may do well to sell now, rather than keep them to the point of failure.

[/quote]

Excellent post, I really liked it.

Not agreeing with the above paragraph though. If you're very unlucky, the pickup will need a rewind, but that can be done with the same grade wire to a period output and the pickup and bass would then sound the same as before. So the sound can be replicated if that happens, it's just the value of the bass may take a little dip, depends on the bass and condition though,but generally not a 'collapse'. But sell my lovely old basses because of that minor risk? Not me my friend. Though I'm sure others could follow your logic and they wouldn't be wrong if that's what they believe in, just not for me that's all.

I hope this doesn't sound like a hostile dig, it just my view on that comment, not a moan!

[redstriper]

My Fender Jazz bass has it's original 1963 pick ups and they've never been rewound.
It has been used regularly throughout it's life, with virtually no maintenance.
Is it likely that the pick ups will fail soon and if so why?

[Chiliwailer]

[quote name='redstriper' timestamp='1384107968' post='2272843']
[/quote]

I wouldn't say it's likely, but it can happen. It's usually due to the pickups taking a knock or just plain old bad luck due to the wire breaking. Treat the bass with care and you should be fine. I've had tons of old basses and never worried about it myself.

A personal perspective about rewinds: I used to have a '64 Jazz Bass with rewound pickups, sounded spot on and like other Jazz Basses of that period because the right guy rewound them. I later sold the bass to a mate of respected vintage guy Phil Harris, via Phil. The bass was a refin and the price wasn't affected by the pickups and he wasn't put off

I recently bought a '64 Precision pickup which needed a rewind for my '66 P Bass which I had a Lollar in. I sent it to Bass Doc who did an incredible job, to the point where the rewind would go unnoticed by 99% of people! Rewound pickups don't put me off it they are done sympathetically to the era.

Edited November 10, 2013 by Chiliwailer

[Dingus]

[quote name='redstriper' timestamp='1384107968' post='2272843']
My Fender Jazz bass has it's original 1963 pick ups and they've never been rewound.
It has been used regularly throughout it's life, with virtually no maintenance.
Is it likely that the pick ups will fail soon and if so why?
[/quote]

They won't fail as such , but they may start to sound increasingly quiet, , thin , microphonic and lacking in bottom end . Some go wonky , some don't . If yours still sound good to you then don't stress over it . You could always try listening to a vintage -style Jazz with some pickups designed to replicat the vintage Fender ones when they were new , such as Lindy Fralins , and see if you noticed much of a difference to your own bass or strongly favoured one over the other.

[Dingus]

[quote name='Chiliwailer' timestamp='1384108563' post='2272849']
I wouldn't say it's likely, but it can happen. It's usually due to the pickups taking a knock or just plain old bad luck due to the wire breaking. Treat the bass with care and you should be fine. I've had tons of old basses and never worried about it myself.

A personal prospective about rewinds: I used to have a '64 Jazz Bass with rewound pickups, sounded spot on and like other Jazz Basses of that period because the right guy rewound them. I later sold the bass to a mate of respected vintage guy Phil Harris, via Phil. The bass was a refin and the price wasn't affected by the pickups and he wasn't put off

I recently bought a '64 Precision pickup which needed a rewind for my '66 P Bass which I had a Lollar in. I sent it to Bass Doc who did an incredible job, to the point where the rewind would go unnoticed by 99% of people! Rewound pickups don't put me off it they are done sympathetically to the era.
[/quote]


Rewinding old Fender pickups is, by neccessity because of their advancing age , getting to be very common . I read recently that Geddy Lee , for example, has had to have the pickups on his prized '72 Jazz Bass and similaly aged main backup '74 Jazz rewound by someone . Bear in mind that there was nothing particulaly esoteric or complex about those old Fender pickups to begin with . They were relatively cheap to manufacture and did a good job . The worst case scenario is that someone would have to abandon the original pickup for one of the many newer substitutes on the market , many of which are so good that the sound of the bass will probably improve anyway. It might compromise the resale as a vintage bass , but you may well end up with a better sounding bass overall as a result.

Edited November 10, 2013 by Dingus

[redstriper]

Thanks chaps.
It's a bit late to start treating the bass with care.
It's been mistreated all it's life, including being set on fire and thrown off stage regularly by it's first owner.
It was rebuilt in 1978 with a new fingerboard and body because the originals were so badly scorched.
It is very battered and I've never taken great care of it in the 34 years I've had it.

The pick ups are the loudest and deepest sounding of any passive bass I've played, including other pre CBS Fenders.
Over the past few years I've bought a lot of Jazz basses, but none of them come close to the depth of tone and volume of this bass.
Many of them have developed faults quite quickly, like dodgy output jacks, while my old faithfull with it's original '63 electrics has never missed a beat.
It's in an ugly, heavy old beast, but still by far my favourite bass and I hope it continues to be as reliable for the next 34 years.

[discreet]

I believe the Stradivarius thing is more about the composition of the varnish more than anything. And some classical musicians believe that these instruments have been enriched by the generations of virtuosi that have played them.

Does that mean a bass played by a couple of generations of experts will sound better than one that has been played only by noobs?

[Highfox]

They might be an Illusion with regards to an investment.... but they sure are nice