when does a flat become a sharp

[timmo]

I am currently trying to learn bass patterns via the Register of Guitar Tutors, I have a pattern they call reggae style. It starts at G minor, to A flat, back to G, then A flat to D. My question is, why is the A, a flat, and not a sharp ? I hope that makes sense

[Dad3353]

[quote name='timmo' timestamp='1383758115' post='2268691']
I am currently trying to learn bass patterns via the Register of Guitar Tutors, I have a pattern they call reggae style. It starts at G minor, to A flat, back to G, then A flat to D. My question is, why is the A, a flat, and not a sharp ? I hope that makes sense
[/quote]

So as to not have 2 notes of the scale with the same name, ie: G and G#.

Subject to correction, completion and/or contradiction from others; I'm just a drummer.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Dad3353

[JuliusGroove]

Always reference the key you are playing in, the general rule of thumb is not to combine sharps and flats but again some people choose to (such as modes formulae)

[ambient]

I think it's to do with the key signature.

If you look at E major for instance, it's got 4 sharps, C, D, F and G. So if you harmonised that scale you wouldn't call the 3 chord A flat, it's going to be G sharp.

Bb has 2 flats, B and E. Harmonising that you wouldn't call the 4 chord D sharp, it's going to be E flat.

[EssentialTension]

Every key has one each of A B C D E F G with sharps and flats added as appropriate.

For example, C major has C D E F G A B with no flats or sharps.

E major has E F# G# A B C# D# E - and thats the way to write it - there needs to be an A natural so there can't also be an Ab, and there needs to be a G but it is in fact a G#.

Edited November 6, 2013 by EssentialTension

[Lozz196]

For me it`s when you achieve a positive outlook on life, as a sharp is one more, whereas flat is one less.

[tedmanzie]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1383773558' post='2269053']
Every key has one each of A B C D E F G with sharps and flats added as appropriate.

For example, C major has C D E F G A B with no flats or sharps.

E major has E F# G# A B C# D# E - and thats the way to write it - there needs to be an A natural so there can't also be an Ab, and there needs to be a G but it is in fact a G#.
[/quote]

I still don't really understand why we don't have ABCDEFGHIJK, but your explanation has helped!

But what happens if you are playing a scale with more than 7 notes?

Edited November 7, 2013 by tedmanzie

[timmo]

OK, thanks for the replies. Some things are confusing, and takes me a while to get my head around it. A lot of things in music seem to make no sense at all, until the penny finally drops,

[Dad3353]

[quote name='tedmanzie' timestamp='1383833200' post='2269740']I still don't really understand why we don't have ABCDEFGHIJK...[/quote]

In the same way that your keyboard is arranged QWERTY, heritage from the 'old days' of mechanical typewriters whose keys could collide, so the notation system is derived from early times when only the notes of the major scale were considered 'legitimate'. The monks and clerics who devised the system set the rules; no-one has come up with a better system that gets universal recognition. Is it 'logical'..? No, not today, but then again, what is..?

[quote name='tedmanzie' timestamp='1383833200' post='2269740']...But what happens if you are playing a scale with more than 7 notes?[/quote]

Rinse and repeat. On a stave, one can see the difference; when written, one could use 'C1', 'C2' etc. to denote octave, if important or relevant.
Hope this helps...

Edited November 7, 2013 by Dad3353

[sprocketflup]

Ive often wondered this. Learnt summat today. I love this place

[Bilbo]

When does a flat become a sharp?

When I an reading in B at 340 bpm. Anything can happen!

[keeponehandloose]

apply the ruling to the key F# , and you have an
E# in the scale 😡

[ras52]

[quote name='keeponehandloose' timestamp='1383838294' post='2269828']
apply the ruling to the key F# , and you have an
E# in the scale
[/quote]

Why the sad face, it makes perfect sense! At the risk of frying the brain of the OP further, we could get into double-flats and double-sharps, and how - outside the equal temperament system - G sharp and a flat aren't the same note...

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='keeponehandloose' timestamp='1383838294' post='2269828']
apply the ruling to the key F# , and you have an
E# in the scale
[/quote]
Yes - F# G# A# B C# D# E# F# - that's correct

[paul_5]

Sharp notes? That's one louder innit?

[lobematt]

Check out this video, it's massively boring (which Pebber admits!!) but it's thorough and should help things start to make a bit of sense.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAo7SyrTCmY"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAo7SyrTCmY[/url]

[ambient]

Slightly off topic, but interesting non the less

A good way to remember the series of flats and sharps in a key is to picture a 6 string bass. Start with the G string, one sharp, next string is D, 2 sharps, next A 3 sharps, E 4 sharps, B 5 sharps, you run out of strings then but next it'd be F#.

Flats picture the notes at the 1st fret, C none, F 1, Bb 2, Eb 3, Ab 4, Db 5 then it'd Gb which has 6.

[keeponehandloose]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1383862999' post='2270266']
Slightly off topic, but interesting non the less

A good way to remember the series of flats and sharps in a key is to picture a 6 string bass. Start with the G string, one sharp, next string is D, 2 sharps, next A 3 sharps, E 4 sharps, B 5 sharps, you run out of strings then but next it'd be F#.

Flats picture the notes at the 1st fret, C none, F 1, Bb 2, Eb 3, Ab 4, Db 5 then it'd Gb which has 6.
[/quote]
i like this

[ambient]

[quote name='keeponehandloose' timestamp='1383864028' post='2270289']

i like this
[/quote]

I was sat in a class room at college with maybe 5 or 6 others (all really good players), the guy told us this and we all just sat there looking at each other thinking wow, that's so easy to remember !

[JuliusGroove]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1383865421' post='2270315']
I was sat in a class room at college with maybe 5 or 6 others (all really good players), the guy told us this and we all just sat there looking at each other thinking wow, that's so easy to remember !
[/quote]

My lecturer gave us the same tip! Wasn't Franc O Shea by any chance?

[XB26354]

The question no-one has answered is why there were flats and sharps in the first place. Back in the mists of time people didn't tune instruments in quite the same way. Keyboard instruments in particular were tuned quite differently, and often to a particular sound or "key". The interval in Hertz between each note varied, making for a rich and full sound. However, if one wanted to play in another key, it would sound horrible unless it were retuned to that key. Taking F major for example, the fourth note is B flat. take F# major, and the third note is A#. In those days, the instrument would have been tuned differently for each key, so Bb and A# would have have slightly different pitch, hence the reason for different notes.
A great big compromise came along, called equal temperament, and made the gaps between notes consistent, which made for a less rich sound but had the convenience of allowing musicians to be able to play any key without retuning. We now think of Bb and A# as the same note, but spell it one way in a "flat" key and the other way in a "sharp" key. The on the exception is C major, which has neither flats not sharps. The basic idea is that if a scale has 7 different notes, then there should be one from each letter of the musical alphabet - A, B, C, D, E, F and G. If you have a harmonic minor scale starting on C it's easier to think of it as C, D, Eb, F, G, Ab, B rather than C, D, D#, F, G, G#, B.

[P-T-P]

My guitarist has never played any of the following chords...

A# Db D# Gb Ab

...or their minor/7th/dim etc. cousins.

Because we now generally use the equal temperament system - allowing instruments to play tunes written in different keys without the need to retune - flats and sharps are enharmonic. That is A# sounds the same as Bb, D# same as Eb and so on.

When it comes to a situation where some people read/understand music theory while others have come to their instrument skipping the theory part or with less knowledge of it, the sharp and flat system can seem pointless.

But, in particular when it comes to music in its written form, they make much more sense. If the key is D, you know that all the F and C notes need to be played as F# and C# unless an incidental (an instruction in the music score to play a natural, sharp or flat note) tells you otherwise. Without the key signature and the convention/rules regarding flats and sharps within those keys, the score would need to feature incidentals at every point a flat or sharp occurs, which would be over-complicated to read.

If we'd had equal temperament from the beginning, maybe we would have had a 12 note stave with the notes named A to L.

[dlloyd]

[quote name='timmo' timestamp='1383758115' post='2268691']
I am currently trying to learn bass patterns via the Register of Guitar Tutors, I have a pattern they call reggae style. It starts at G minor, to A flat, back to G, then A flat to D. My question is, why is the A, a flat, and not a sharp ? I hope that makes sense
[/quote]

Convention has it that whatever key we're playing in (simple diatonic music), we have notes (and hence chords) that correspond to each of the letters of the alphabet between A and G.

You don't have to worry why that is, and without getting into the history of plainsong and the medieval monastic tradition, it's because it's easier than the alternative.

The conventional major keys are:

C# 7 sharps: F#, C#, G#, D#, A#, E#, B#
F# 6 sharps: F#, C#, G#, D#, A#, E#
B 5 sharps: F#, C#, G#, D#, A#
E 4 sharps: F#, C#, G#, D#
A 3 sharps: F#, C#, G#
D 2 sharps: F#, C#
G 1 sharp: F#
C None
F 1 flat: Bb
Bb 2 flats: Bb, Eb
Eb 3 flats: Bb, Eb, Ab
Ab 4 flats: Bb, Eb, Ab, Db
Db 5 flats: Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb
Gb 6 flats: Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, Cb
Cb 7 flats: Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, Cb, Fb

In practice, you won't see C# or Cb major as Db and B major are enharmonic (sound the same, just with different names) and are easier to think about, particularly when you go past the point where you're thinking about patterns in which you put your fingers and start thinking about the actual music.

Here's the notes in Cb and B major:

Cb = B
Db = C#
Eb = D#
Fb = E
Gb = F#
Ab = G#
Bb = A#
Cb = B

Not convinced? There are theoretical keys that have more than 7 sharps, for instance D# major, which has 9 sharps, including Fx (double sharp... same as G) and Cx (same as D)... but that would just mess with people's heads. Much easier to think of it as Eb major with 3 flats.

Complex music, particularly a lot of 20th century classical music, often does away with a lot of these rules, because the diatonic system is inadequate to describe it.