What Mic to use on Cab Live?

[jaakkeeeeeee]

Just want an idea of what mic/type mics people use live before i go and get myself one.

[Happy Jack]

My choice would be a Shure Beta SM57 but you'll get plenty of alternatives being suggested, many of them by people who know WAY more than me.

[Dr.Dave]

I wouldn't mic a cab live unless I was playing stadia and even then would only use one mixed in with the DI signal for a bit of ambience.

If you're thinking that DI alone can be a little sterile there are plenty of ways to add cab simulation et. If you DI post eq anything you do to your sound will be replicated through the PA.

If you still decide to go ahead I'd look a bass drum mics though the aforementioned SM57 would do the job.

[BigRedX]

Bass drum mics are a terrible idea since they have an EQ curve designed to flatter the bass drum and therefore if you use one on the bass guitar cab as well all that happens is the two fight for the same EQ space.

[AntLockyer]

Radioshack 33-3032 if they still do them

[EBS_freak]

You could do a lot worse than a Heil PR40...

Edited November 14, 2013 by EBS_freak

[51m0n]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1384361502' post='2275708']
Bass drum mics are a terrible idea since they have an EQ curve designed to flatter the bass drum and therefore if you use one on the bass guitar cab as well all that happens is the two fight for the same EQ space.
[/quote]

+1

Here's a tip for a really cheap alternative to an sm57, Prodipe TT1 Pro, £39.99

I thankyewwverrymuch.....

I would always suggest if you are micing a cab live to get the 'grit' of your rig across, and you have the time, then couple that with a DI for the low end and the very sparkly top end, its very very hard to mic a cab such that the driver (which provides the mids) is properly balanced with the port (which provides the lows) and the tweeter (if you have one).

If you need to mic (ie you use distortion and need the cone to filter out the top end hash) then use a mic on the best sounding driver in your cab, blend with a DI, but cut anything over 100Hz out of the DI signal. Better yet send the two channels to a group and apply a bit of subtle compression to help glue it all together.

Its a faff, but the result sounds a lot better.

If you really cant send a DI as well spend a minute some time to work out a really nice mic placement that carries enough real low end (ie sub120Hz) wallop from the port as well as grit from the cone photograph the mic position with your phone and show the sound guy the picture saying you have spent time working this out. In this case an SM57 is probably not the best choice, but neither is a kick drum mic, you need a fairly flat mic to do it justice, and that gets expensive as hell.

The Prodipe TT1 does go lower than a 57 though, in my experiments at least (I got them for tom mics, but they are surprisingly versatile, and can sound really nice on some vocals too), it has a pretty decent chance of doing your rig justice, as long as you get the position right....

Another (more expensive) excellent mic for this is the Line AUdio CM3. Awesome little mic, will handle pretty serious level, and about as flat as you could need, with great low end extension. Its a condensor and will require phantom power, but is tiny, very discreet and outperforms most other SDC mics up to the Schoeps/DPA level, yet only cost about £150

Shepo got one for micing his behemoth of a rig and really really digs it....

Edited November 14, 2013 by 51m0n

[51m0n]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1384425822' post='2276489'] You could do a lot worse than a Heil PR40... [/quote]

Stunning mic for bass and kick drum, and baritone vocal.

Very expensive though!

[pantherairsoft]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1384433909' post='2276601']

Another (more expensive) excellent mic for this is the Line AUdio CM3. Awesome little mic, will handle pretty serious level, and about as flat as you could need, with great low end extension. Its a condensor and will require phantom power, but is tiny, very discreet and outperforms most other SDC mics up to the Schoeps/DPA level, yet only cost about £150

Shepo got one for micing his behemoth of a rig and really really digs it....
[/quote]

This!

Amazing bass cab mic - Though only if you want hifi - VERY revealing and raw. If you want to capture real low end it's amazing.
Also it's Amazing on....
Guitar Cabs
Vocals
Overheads
Snares
Stage Mic
Kazoo
Er... Everything.

Basically it's the best mic on the planet in my humble and insignificant opinion.

[Phil Starr]

Only mic up if you are absolutely determined and prepared to spend hours getting it right. You won't only need a decent mic but positioning it will be critical, moving it a few cm will change the sound. If you want post eq then use a DI box in the speaker lead or use the FX out on your amp. It is so much easier and if the audience hear a difference at all it is likely to favour DI over the miked sound. I know guitarists do this all the time but it really isn't the best way of getting a good sound for a bassist. Now you have £150 to spend on something else bass related.

[51m0n]

[quote name='pantherairsoft' timestamp='1384434096' post='2276609']
This!

Amazing bass cab mic - Though only if you want hifi - VERY revealing and raw. If you want to capture real low end it's amazing.
Also it's Amazing on....
Guitar Cabs
Vocals
Overheads
Snares
Stage Mic
Kazoo
Er... Everything.

Basically it's the best mic on the planet in my humble and insignificant opinion.
[/quote]

LOL!

Guess thats one steer that worked out ok then mate

I reckon you're probably right in terms of bang for the buck.

And I certainly wouldnt say raw, I would say accurate. If you dont want flattery, but would rather capture the sound as is, then the CM3 is just spine tingling for the cash, you really really need to be looking in the £700 to £800 plus area in small diaphragm condensors to get anything remotely better. And we are talking better due to really really subtle differences, and maybe slightly higher output...

A lot of people who record classical are using these now, not in place of Schoeps and DPA which they all tend to have, but in addition to.

I use my pair of CM3s every time I record, and they are just, brilliant.....

They also do an OM1 now which is an omni condensor, by all accounts its even flatter than the CM3, another staggering mic!

Edited November 14, 2013 by 51m0n

[Myke]

How about a Electro voice RE-20. My favourite sounding mic

[51m0n]

[quote name='Myke' timestamp='1384442887' post='2276762']
How about a Electro voice RE-20. My favourite sounding mic
[/quote]

Yep, this is another classic mic for bass cabs (and vocal broadcast mic, like the Heil PR40, but older)

[M@23]

I have a 57 for general purposes and backup for bass/guitar/vocal/snare. Saying that, don't think I've used it to mic my cab. Just D.I usually, if required. For bass only I'd invest in a quality D.I, but that's because it would be more appropriate for the gigs I do.

[VTypeV4]

As stated previously, in a live situiation I'd simply go with a quality DI rather than the fuss of mic on speakers.

Exceptions may well be sounds like Lemmy and Alan Davey. I deal with the latter on a regular basis and have found my trusty '57s work just fine. The SM57 is [i]still [/i]a great microphone inspite of it's age and lineage.

Recording may well be a different story where you have time and space to experiment working with alternative setups.

[DolganoFF]

Like some guys here, I don't mike cabs when playing live, just too many things to go wrong. Any half-decent DI is less trouble than any mikes. However in studio or other recording situations, I do mike the cab when time permits.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='DolganoFF' timestamp='1384724410' post='2280090']
Like some guys here, I don't mike cabs when playing live, just too many things to go wrong. Any half-decent DI is less trouble than any mikes. However in studio or other recording situations, I do mike the cab when time permits.
[/quote]

PA engineers mic up guitar cabs all the time. How is a mic'd up bass cab more likely to go wrong?

[51m0n]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1384761832' post='2280277']
PA engineers mic up guitar cabs all the time. How is a mic'd up bass cab more likely to go wrong?
[/quote]
+ about a million!

What the hell is so likely to go wrong micing a cab exactly?

Cos we mic drum kits, guitar amps, horm sections, leslie speakers, vocalists all the time, what exactly is wrong with micing a bass cab, do we need extra insurance in case the mic gets miffed?

[Myke]

I think it's just a less hassle to just plug in a DI

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Myke' timestamp='1384783141' post='2280613']
I think it's just a less hassle to just plug in a DI
[/quote]

It depends on how much difference the cab you use makes to your overall sound, and how important it is in the scheme of the whole band mix.

I'm happy to DI because I know from experience with using different cabs, that the speakers I use most often are the least important component in my signal chain, being modern and relatively uncoloured and their contribution to the overall bass sound can be fairly easily replicated through the PA with a bit of EQ. However if I was using something more old school that had a major contribution to the bass tone then I would be insisting on having the cab mic'd up.

[EliasMooseblaster]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1384782178' post='2280600']
+ about a million!

What the hell is so likely to go wrong micing a cab exactly?

Cos we mic drum kits, guitar amps, horm sections, leslie speakers, vocalists all the time, what exactly is wrong with micing a bass cab, do we need extra insurance in case the mic gets miffed?
[/quote]

I've often wondered about this myself. (Particularly since, if you ask this question over on Talkbass, you get about 100 responses from people desperate to tell you that they stopped using a bass amp altogether since they bought a particular DI box - I wouldn't mind, except they invariably write in the most sanctimonious tones, as if they think you're somehow inferior or unclean for still lugging one of those big, dirty cabs around...)

Is it an assumption that most bassists will (i) spend most of the set chugging root notes underneath the rhythm guitar anyway and (ii) can't be trusted with their own EQs?

Is it just an assumption that bassists are generally less stroppy than guitarists? Are sound engineers anticipating most of the soundcheck being spent telling the guitarist to turn the f**k down, so at least if they can plug the bass into a DI, they can spend 10 seconds applying the same EQ curve they learnt in music tech school because "that's how a bass is supposed to sound"?

Not to tar all engineers with the same brush; it's always a delight to get one who knows their stuff and gives a monkey's. And I'm finding an increasing number of bass amps which have a DI socket off the preamp, so I'm allowed at least some influence over "my sound." But still...what the hell is so likely to go wrong micing a cab?

[51m0n]

Whilst nothing will 'go wrong' mic position on a bass cab is IME a bit more of a dark art than mic position on a guitar cab.

Regardless of what guitarists may have you believe a guitar cab is a pretty stoneage thing, effectively there are a number of transducer ranging from 1 to 4 all of which do the same job, ie they are 'full range' for which read they all attempt to do the same thing and are in afact a complex mechanical bandpass filter knocking out the extreme low end (ie sub 70Hz) and 'extreme' top end (ie anything over 8KHz) whilst also dampening transients to a greater or lesser extent.

In contrast a modern bass cab is ported, and has a tweeter, so getting the mic position bang on to deliver all that the cab produces is really difficult when close micing ( amust on stage due to the spill). Which is why a mic on a bass cab should concentrate on the cone for the mid range, and a DI should be used for the bottom end, because getting a mic to capture the port output at a decent level and the midrange at the same time is pretty tricky. That just leaves getting the DI and mic in phase, but any engineer worth his salt should know exactly how to do that.....

[Myke]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1384789541' post='2280721']
In contrast a modern bass cab is ported, and has a tweeter, so getting the mic position bang on to deliver all that the cab produces is really difficult when close micing ( amust on stage due to the spill). Which is why a mic on a bass cab should concentrate on the cone for the mid range, and a DI should be used for the bottom end, because getting a mic to capture the port output at a decent level and the midrange at the same time is pretty tricky. That just leaves getting the DI and mic in phase, but any engineer worth his salt should know exactly how to do that.....
[/quote]

This all takes time and I think in the end people just go with the DI because it's much simpler.

Plug in, 'Play a bit of bass mate' (10 seconds later) 'Alright, thanks man, all done' That's the typical sound check I have..

But I agree with what BigRedX said but I just go with the flow for everything

[VTypeV4]

[quote name='Myke' timestamp='1384797107' post='2280837']
This all takes time and I think in the end people just go with the DI because it's much simpler.

Plug in, [i][b]'Play a bit of bass mate' (10 seconds later) 'Alright, thanks man, all done' [/b][/i]That's the typical sound check I have..

But I agree with what BigRedX said but I just go with the flow for everything
[/quote]

Because after listening to the kick drum and assessing the guitar noise, a decent engineer should have an idea where the bass soonically fits into that mix. As a bass playing sound engineer, I'm always on the bassists side a long as he's behaving of course..

[Myke]

[quote name='VTypeV4' timestamp='1384804558' post='2280965']
Because after listening to the kick drum and assessing the guitar noise, a decent engineer should have an idea where the bass soonically fits into that mix. As a bass playing sound engineer, I'm always on the bassists side a long as he's behaving of course..
[/quote]

Ah! I thought they just kind of didn't bother with much EQ, comp, gates etc... Makes sense now!