The minefield that comes from being in a band

[JamesBass]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1384168175' post='2273374']
The unfortunate truth is that you might actually not be pushy and determined enough.

Playing original music requires a much higher level of commitment than simply churning out covers in pubs, and if you don't have a really good manager working for your band a lot of organisational, people skills and ultimately plenty of sheer blood-minded determination.

All though it's never been the case in the past (even if a lot musicians want to pretend otherwise) being in a band is about much more than just being able to play your instrument to reasonably competent level. In fact I'd be tempted to go as far as saying that technical ability is perhaps the least important thing. I've found that people who are prepared to put in all the extra work that goes with being in a band tend to be the ones that improve as musicians simply because they enjoy it so much. It doesn't matter how good your "chops" are if you want to jack it all in because you've just arrived home at 4.30 in the morning after playing to a handful of people at an out of town gig, you don't have what it takes to be in a band.

Like it or not the most important people in a band are the singer and the main songwriter. Everyone else (except in a few exceptional cases) is ultimately replaceable. So, if you're not currently performing either of these roles, now is the time to start working on your songwriting and/or taking singing lessons. Also the ability to play other instruments is never wasted. Otherwise you'll have to hope you get lucky by finding a band that has the required drive, is playing music you like and is in need of a bass player.

To give you some idea of the time an commitment you need to be putting in let me tell you a bit about my band. Currently we're gigging on average once a week (all over the country - if you can't get the gigs you want locally go where you can get them). Next year when our current guitarist situation is resolved (more on that later) we hope to playing at least twice a week. We have at least one full band rehearsal every week where we work on new material, polishing any of the existing set that needs the work working on transitions between the songs to tighten up the set, and revisiting selected back catalogue so we can still play it live should the need arise. Also the singer and myself also get together every week with the aim of turning one of our ideas into something that is complete enough to present to the rest of the band as a song to work on.

On top of that between all of us (although the bulk of the work is done by the singer and then myself) we put 30-40 hours a week into the non-musical aspects of running a band - contacting promoters and venues, keeping in touch with our fans/followers and other bands that we've played with, updating social media, sending out promo packs (both electronic and physical) creating the monthly email newsletter. We currently get around a 15% return on what we do - so every 100 gig enquiries lands approximately 15 gigs - and that's pretty good going. Also if a venue or promoter knocks you back try again in a couple of months, these things a fluid and promoters and booking policies change all the time.

Currently we're also looking at getting some better band transport and finding a rehearsal space that can be permanently and exclusively ours so we can be more flexible and intensive about our rehearsal schedule.

And finally regarding the guitarist situation. This year has been fairly volatile for band members (drummers and guitarists), and it was nothing to do with the music, but because they realised that they simply didn't have the time and energy that was required to be a member of the band (and that was just the rehearsing and gigging schedule). We've had to postpone two potential European tours this year because we couldn't guarantee a full band line up for all the dates. Even then considering how much time has been used auditioning and rehearsing new band members (or temporary stand-ins) during the last 12 months we have still managed to keep the momentum of the band going with plenty of gigs and the release our second single. What we are going to be able to achieve next year with a stable line up makes me positively giddy with anticipation.

So to the OP good luck in your quest. Don't underestimate all the extra work that needs to be done. Also don't forget that too many musicians simply aren't prepared to do much more than play their instruments have a bit of a laugh and play the occasional gig (that's an observation not a criticism).
[/quote]
Cheers Big Red, fortunately with studying a degree in music performance and management, I'm fairly familiar with all that comes with a band behind the scenes, it's a very unglamorous job and one that requires a LOT of hard work and dedication. My previous band were self-recording and about to self-publish and self-manage and then when I asked the other lads to take it as a full time employment they scarpered rather quickly. Myself and the singer/guitarist wrote all the material, I myself writing the progressions and basic melody and the singer/guitarist manipulating odds and sods to fit his voice and our style more. It was a very good setup and one that was about to see us formalise the band to the point it would have been our jobs.

Along with being in the band, recording the band, about to publish the band/songs, I also managed the band, getting us gigs, producing promo packs, digital and physical. I was also running an on the side bass tuition school with 4 students which was going well, I was also running a very small and occasional promotions company, so fortunately I'm no stranger to the industry, just still very young at only 20 and full of beans, hopes and wishes aha!

I thank you for your comments, it's nice to see in my enraged and most likely slightly inebriated state someone was able to understand me aha
[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1384187735' post='2273724']
I don't want to go over the same points as a lot of other folks have made , but I would just like to say that , from my own experience , the only thing worse than being in a band with pushy people with very definite ideas and opinions is being in a band with people who no apparent motivation, strongly-held ideas or opinions . Maybe James needs to find people as driven as himself .

Making a living playing music is a very hard career to sustain for any length of time , though , and even a lot of musicians in bands with record deals that you see on T.V are barely scraping a living by most standards and have no real security . If you really want to be a professional musician , that is the life you are signing up for, so when you say you want to make playing original material your main source of income, James, that is great but don't be under any illusions that your income from doing so is likely to ever be very significant unless you are both extraordinarily talented and/or lucky, and even then you will probably struggle financially . I personally know people in bands that have had several hit records , done World tours and have big media profiles who have had to sell their guitars and take awful day jobs just to be able to feed themselves when their career flatlined and their record company unceremoniously dropped them . I know it's a cliche but it's true : music is a very tough business to be in . Are you sure that is what you really want?

As for playing covers , I enjoy it tremendously and I don't care too much what anybody thinks about that . It's a good job I enjoy it , too , because the harsh fact is that once you reach a certain age in this game , your most credible avenue for keeping playing music is to be playing covers.
[/quote]

I'll get it straight, I enjoy covers at home, I like to mix things up occasionally with my previous bands as it keeps us fresh going over someone else's songs, it helps with arrangements of originals, however I have no intention of gigging them, it's all too cliche for myself and not satisfying enough to play someone else's stuff, I do that in my spare time at home, it's wonderful to do as well! Nothing like nailing a John Entwistle bass line or grooving with Jamerson! But I don't want to do that live. That's not me, I probably have too much of an ego to do covers, but then again who doesn't at times?!

It is what I want, I'm currently studying for a degree in music performance and management but I'll also do a PGCE so I can teach if I want to, especially if I move abroad! If I can, I'd like to do one, largish tour, UK would suffice plenty, but I want to be in a band that do tour and gig, even if we have brief success I'll be pleased and happy for life, I'd then more than happily take up full time teaching.

[Truckstop]

You should get a piano or a guitar and write your own songs. Learn a few chords and some technique and you're well on your way to putting your own songs together and doing things your way. I've found it really hard to get seriously involved in any originals projects solely as a bassist.

Truckstop

[JamesBass]

[quote name='Truckstop' timestamp='1384211131' post='2274172']
You should get a piano or a guitar and write your own songs. Learn a few chords and some technique and you're well on your way to putting your own songs together and doing things your way. I've found it really hard to get seriously involved in any originals projects solely as a bassist.

Truckstop
[/quote]
I've got a catalogue of around 25-30 songs, all finished and written, only changes that will be made are if the guitarists can't play the lead parts then I'll find a new guitarist and the melody and key, I'm more open to having singers change things with my songs, especially if they have a good voice and good ideas. Guitarists are ten a penny so they're easily replaceable it's the singers I have most trouble finding! Although it's been suggested that I look to take the lead vocals, it has never been my goal to sing, I'll do a harmony but won't take lead vocals, as I enjoy playing bass too much, even if I was playing a singing I'd rather only do the playing

[Truckstop]

Ah, I see.

Yeah, good singers with a good working attitude are really difficult to find. The best singers I've ever seen have been on the holiday camp/cruise ship circuits!
A great voice isn't necessarily the most important weapon in a front persons arsenal. Someone with charisma, gravitas and personality is what you need. Again, not many people like that around!

I wish you luck on your search!

Truckstop

[Dingus]

[quote name='JamesBass' timestamp='1384210806' post='2274167']
I'll get it straight, I enjoy covers at home, I like to mix things up occasionally with my previous bands as it keeps us fresh going over someone else's songs, it helps with arrangements of originals, however I have no intention of gigging them, it's all too cliche for myself and not satisfying enough to play someone else's stuff, I do that in my spare time at home, it's wonderful to do as well! Nothing like nailing a John Entwistle bass line or grooving with Jamerson! But I don't want to do that live. That's not me, I probably have too much of an ego to do covers, but then again who doesn't at times?!

It is what I want, I'm currently studying for a degree in music performance and management but I'll also do a PGCE so I can teach if I want to, especially if I move abroad! If I can, I'd like to do one, largish tour, UK would suffice plenty, but I want to be in a band that do tour and gig, even if we have brief success I'll be pleased and happy for life, I'd then more than happily take up full time teaching.
[/quote]

For what it's worth , I really admire the spirit of any young person nowadays who rejects the pressure to conform and get a regular job as soon as possible and decides to follow their heart. I really don't want to sound patronising , but at that risk , I really think it has got a lot harder for people to experiment with trying different things while they are young enough to be free to do so . All the pressure of society is brought to bear to try and make you join the rat race as soon as you leave education , so kudos to you for giving it a go. I am only trying to offer advice only so you know what you are taking on , if you didn't already.

The World was a different place in those days, but I left school at 18 and instead of going to university or getting a job I set about pusuing my career in music and did manage to play full time for a couple of years , and have never regretted it . To be honest with you , I had no interest in anything else , so it wasn't a difficult decision . It improved my playing no end , but it was also enough to let me know that I wasn't going to do it for the rest of my life.

Maybe it's because of that experience that I am at peace with myself now despite only playing on the side , so I am glad to hear you are not discouraged. At the same time, it worries me when hear about the amount of young people who are doing degrees in things like Performance and media- related subjects. Those degrees will be of little or no use in helping anyone pusue careers in those fields. in all likelihood . You are lucky enough to live in a country that still rules the World when it comes to popular music, so if you want to be in a touring band then work on your playing and when you can , move to London , and take your chances . Stick with it and something good will happen.

Edited November 12, 2013 by Dingus

[6v6]

[quote name='JamesBass' timestamp='1384124797' post='2273137']
I'm very creative and produce songs like clockwork, which is exactly what I want to be doing, expect with a band who are as serious as myself, as determined to make the most of a good thing and really push it on and try to make it our major source of income.
[/quote]

So you want to be a pro musician...

[quote name='JamesBass' timestamp='1384210806' post='2274167']
It is what I want, I'm currently studying for a degree in music performance and management but I'll also do a PGCE so I can teach if I want to, especially if I move abroad! If I can, I'd like to do one, largish tour, UK would suffice plenty, but I want to be in a band that do tour and gig, even if we have brief success I'll be pleased and happy for life, I'd then more than happily take up full time teaching.
[/quote]

...only you don't, you actually want to do one UK tour then take up teaching full time.

FWIW the pro guys I know will play anything so long as it pays, from original recording sessions, to covers in pubs/clubs/functions, musicals, whatever it takes to make a living.

[Musicman20]

I personally couldn't 'just' play covers. I agree with the OP in a sense, and I'm a little older!

I love doing it at home, but I found when I quit the last band that the following wound me up:

1. Not really earning very much for a considerable amount of work and messing about;
2. Learning awful music. Some of it was great, but 50% of it was awful;
3. In relation to 1, my career is much more important and will always pay much more than music ever will (unless we are talking extremely good career in music) so, instead of spending weeks learning covers, I may as well just concentrate on work, play to bands at home, and write with a band I can call my own;
4. Giving up from about 3/4pm on a Friday/Saturday only to arrive to find the bar doesn't care when we start, and that the guy who dealt with it isn't in anyway, so we can't setup until 7/8pm. Waste of time.

I've given covers up, but I love learning it at home. IF a superb function band wanted me to play, I would no doubt join, but I don't want to play the same old rock covers in the local bars. I'd want to play corporate events and big parties.

The North East is flooded with crap covers bands. As are most areas of the UK I imagine. We do however seem to be lacking something in terms of new undiscovered original bands up here. I haven't seen a fantastic young band playing their own music for a long time, (the last band I did see was called Let's Buy Happiness).

I won't pursue music as a career. Kudos for you for following it, and good luck.

I have however, started a band from scratch. We had nothing....just me and a friend whose guitar playing I liked. He understands the role of a good 'forward in the mix' sounding bassist, and always talks about Joy Division, The Smiths, etc, which is the route we are taking.

We now have all the instrumentalists ready. We just need that key person - frontman/vocals. I have found someone suitable but it has taken months.

Again, stick at it.

[Linus27]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1384128812' post='2273162']

The moral for me is that bands as democracy have the potential to lose drive and fizzle out like a cheap firework. None of the really good bands I've been in have been democratic. I think a band like RUSH is very rare. I have a firm belief that one needs a good bandleader, someone with talent and creativity, vision and drive, quality control and discipline, with a tangible level of confidence in the songs and the band's performance. These IME will usually be high calibre singer-songwriters. Unless you have all those qualities yourself and start your own band, I would try to get in an established band who sound like they know where they're going. Talk to them first and get a feel for them. There are never any guarantees with a band though.

Hope you get there man. Good luck. And it will be mostly luck you need
[/quote]

This is a very good point and something I have been very aware of in the past. All the bands I have been in have always played originals. Covers just never interested me. I was fortunate enough to set a band up with some mates, who were all very hard working, dedicated which in turned paid off as we got signed and had a chunk of success.

However, each band member had strengths and weaknesses. The singer/lead guitarist and I were the song writers. I would arrange and structure the song etc but would never interfere with the vocals, melody or lead guitar parts. The drummer and rhythm guitarist were happy to be led musically to the point of being guided or even told what to play. However, they did a hell of a lot of work behind the scenes like booking gigs, talking to promoter's, mailshots, photo-shoots, promotion and eventually dealing with the record company. This just made life so much easier as we could all trust and rely on each others judgements and we never got into arguments or bicker. Song writing was always a pleasure as Steve and I had the freedom musically. John and Sid likewise had the freedom to lead the band behind the scenes and it just so worked. We all knew our places and roles in the band and stuck to them.

Edited November 12, 2013 by Linus27

[xilddx]

[quote name='Linus27' timestamp='1384274813' post='2274723']


This is a very good point and something I have been very aware of in the past. All the bands I have been in have always played originals. Covers just never interested me. I was fortunate enough to set a band up with some mates, who were all very hard working, dedicated which in turned paid off as we got signed and had a chunk of success.

However, each band member had strengths and weaknesses. The singer/lead guitarist and I were the song writers. I would arrange and structure the song etc but would never interfere with the vocals, melody or lead guitar parts. The drummer and rhythm guitarist were happy to be led musically to the point of being guided or even told what to play. However, they did a hell of a lot of work behind the scenes like booking gigs, talking to promoter's, mailshots, photo-shoots, promotion and eventually dealing with the record company. This just made life so much easier as we could all trust and rely on each others judgements and we never got into arguments or bicker. Song writing was always a pleasure as Steve and I had the freedom musically. John and Sid likewise had the freedom to lead the band behind the scenes and it just so worked. We all knew our places and roles in the band and stuck to them.
[/quote]were you in the Sex Pistols then?

[Linus27]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1384277621' post='2274766']
were you in the Sex Pistols then?
[/quote]

Huh??

(This is where I admit to knowing nothing about the Sex Pistols)

[Musky]

John, Sid, Steve and... Michael.

Edited November 12, 2013 by Musky

[Linus27]

[quote name='Musky' timestamp='1384285863' post='2274905']
John, Sid, Steve and... Michael.
[/quote]

HAHAHA all these years and that's never been said. Its bloody obvious now. Nice one

[Happy Jack]

If it's any help, Adam (LowEndBee) plays with Sam & Dave ...

[TimR]

[quote name='JamesBass' timestamp='1384211559' post='2274177']

I've got a catalogue of around 25-30 songs, all finished and written, only changes that will be made are if the guitarists can't play the lead parts then I'll find a new guitarist and the melody and key, I'm more open to having singers change things with my songs, especially if they have a good voice and good ideas. Guitarists are ten a penny so they're easily replaceable it's the singers I have most trouble finding! Although it's been suggested that I look to take the lead vocals, it has never been my goal to sing, I'll do a harmony but won't take lead vocals, as I enjoy playing bass too much, even if I was playing a singing I'd rather only do the playing
[/quote]

If you are using this approach then you are going to have to pay your musicians.

No one is going to play unknown 'covers' for free. You're allowing no creative input from 'the band'.

I played in a project where the songwriter/keys dictated exactly what notes I played, what rhythms and tempo the drummer played at, how the singer sang. We never got to the gig stage because he had not written the parts In the way a bass player, drummer etc thinks and took no creative input from the rest of the musicians. It was fairly soul destroying for the rest of us playing stuff we knew wasn't right and knowing it could be so much better.

[CamdenRob]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1384346029' post='2275468']
If you are using this approach then you are going to have to pay your musicians.

No one is going to play unknown 'covers' for free. You're allowing no creative input from 'the band'.

I played in a project where the songwriter/keys dictated exactly what notes I played, what rhythms and tempo the drummer played at, how the singer sang. We never got to the gig stage because he had not written the parts In the way a bass player, drummer etc thinks and took no creative input from the rest of the musicians. It was fairly soul destroying for the rest of us playing stuff we knew wasn't right and knowing it could be so much better.
[/quote]

This just about sums my recent experiences with auditioning to play bass for singer / songwriters. I always get a follow up email the next day saying "We'd really like you to join but we want you to play root notes"... fair enough.. pay me then.

[Conan]

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1384263063' post='2274570']
The North East is flooded with crap covers bands. We do however seem to be lacking something in terms of new undiscovered original bands up here.[/quote]

Are you busy on saturday evening? [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/221974-the-sour-dogs-bridge-hotel-newcastle-16-november/"]http://basschat.co.uk/topic/221974-the-sour-dogs-bridge-hotel-newcastle-16-november/[/url]

[Conan]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1384346995' post='2275479']
Are you busy on saturday evening? [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/221974-the-sour-dogs-bridge-hotel-newcastle-16-november/"]http://basschat.co.u...le-16-november/[/url]
[/quote]

The "leader" of my band is the lead guitarist/songwriter. Even though he originally recorded his material with him playing all of the instruments, he really values the input of the bassist (me) and the drummer. In many cases, we have changed the structure of the songs (for the better, in the opinions of us all) to suit the individual styles of the musicians.

I wouldn't say it was a true "democracy" as such, but it is very co-operative and works extremely well in this scenario. His material is (IMO) very good and has real potential. However, the fact that all the band members have full-time day jobs mean that the potential is unlikely to ever be realised. Such is life.

There is hope!

[JamesBass]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1384346029' post='2275468']
If you are using this approach then you are going to have to pay your musicians.

No one is going to play unknown 'covers' for free. You're allowing no creative input from 'the band'.

I played in a project where the songwriter/keys dictated exactly what notes I played, what rhythms and tempo the drummer played at, how the singer sang. We never got to the gig stage because he had not written the parts In the way a bass player, drummer etc thinks and took no creative input from the rest of the musicians. It was fairly soul destroying for the rest of us playing stuff we knew wasn't right and knowing it could be so much better.
[/quote]
I'm all for having creative input, I have no qualms with that at all, I profess to not being perfect. I encourage others to get involved and have an input because as a band we'd need to be able to be open and honest about the songs and everyone should be happy playing the songs. I've been in bands where I've been told just play roots and play common time on the beat and that's that! It's horrible just like you say!

I just cannot believe how frustrating and hard it is to find like minded people.

[xgsjx]

It's hard work getting a decent band together. I've had 3 drummers & 4 singers so far in the current band. Starting to write our own stuff, but man, it moves slow.
Despite me already having a good number of completed songs, getting them to learn & play can take some effort. But we're getting there.
The first couple of singers just wanted to do covers of pop rock, even though I advertised for Acid Jazz/breakbeat.

[TimR]

[quote name='JamesBass' timestamp='1384348078' post='2275501']

I'm all for having creative input, I have no qualms with that at all, I profess to not being perfect. I encourage others to get involved and have an input because as a band we'd need to be able to be open and honest about the songs and everyone should be happy playing the songs. I've been in bands where I've been told just play roots and play common time on the beat and that's that! It's horrible just like you say!

I just cannot believe how frustrating and hard it is to find like minded people.
[/quote]

How far do you get?

Do you find musicians but they're put off after they hear your demo, or do people just not answer your ads, or do they answer and you decide they're not what you are after.

I know when I auditioned for the band I'm in now they just couldn't find a decent bass player. They had 4 guys audition but they just didn't 'fit'.

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1384354110' post='2275606']
I've had 3 drummers & 4 singers so far in the current band.
[/quote]

Christ, that must have been noisy!

[BigRedX]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1384354110' post='2275606']
It's hard work getting a decent band together.
[/quote]

It shouldn't have to be. The Terrortones went from Mr Venom first discussing the idea with me to first gig in about 8 weeks and that included auditioning 2 drummers, 3 guitarists and writing 7 songs. All it required was for the members of the band to put in the work required as far as writing and rehearsing went.


[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1384357783' post='2275657']
Do you find musicians but they're put off after they hear your demo, or do people just not answer your ads, or do they answer and you decide they're not what you are after.
[/quote]

In our case we've found that the biggest obstacle to getting the right people is finding those who are prepared to put in the work that is needed. There too many "musicians" out there that like the idea of being in a band, but when faced with the reality of how much effort is required if you intend to play originals and make money doing it just don't have the stomach for it. And too often those with the ability and motivation were already playing in too many other bands to have the time to give our band the attention required. Which when you think about it is stupid because all it means is that while they have potentially more chances of one of the bands being more than just a hobby, in reality none of the bands they are in will be working hard enough to have a decent chance of that happening.

[xgsjx]

My previous band wasn't as hard. There was me & the singer & we wrote the songs & got another couple of musicians to play. Was gigging not long after.

I started the new band last September & hopefully now we are the full line up (new singer tonight). Then we can get some stuff down & get gigging.

[JamesBass]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1384357783' post='2275657']


How far do you get?

Do you find musicians but they're put off after they hear your demo, or do people just not answer your ads, or do they answer and you decide they're not what you are after.

I know when I auditioned for the band I'm in now they just couldn't find a decent bass player. They had 4 guys audition but they just didn't 'fit'.
[/quote]
I've been at every single stage of the process in the past 6 months! I've had people get put off by the demos as they often have a heavier and different take on music, that's fine. I've posted ads that get no nibbles and I've had jams/sessions with people and tell them it's in the key of say C and a basic 1, 4, 5. I've also asked people if they can play a major 7 and been met with clueless expressions.

I find there are a lot of "musicians" local to me who are not aware of the work level involved, the knowledge required of basic theory and the determination to succeed! There are plenty of posers and what I'd call "bedroom musicians" I am by no means taking away from them, I just find them a waste of time for what I'm after!

I'll just keep looking and working on my material and meeting contacts, I'm damn hopefully that it'll come off!

[discreet]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1384359081' post='2275671']
There too many "musicians" out there that like the idea of being in a band, but when faced with the reality of how much effort is required if you intend to play originals and make money doing it just don't have the stomach for it.
[/quote]

Sad, but very true - and is so often the case that it is practically the norm, in my experience.
Delusion is endemic in the music business.