Death of the pub, interesting read

[skidder652003]

Sorry if this has been posted before..

[url="https://medium.com/p/65ea8207afa5"]https://medium.com/p/65ea8207afa5[/url]

[CamdenRob]

Whilst this is sad... I love a good country pub, what is this article suggesting? That the pubs are taken from the pubcos and given to the landlords? That's just ridiculous. Like or loath what the big companies are doing to the pubs, they do own them, so in actuality they can do whatever they want with them.

[steve-bbb]

well wether you like them or loathe them chains such as weatherspoons have a lot to answer for homogenising town and city pubs

fortunately out in the sticks 'this' sort of pub is now growing in popularity where villagers form limited company or cooperative and run the pub collectively for the community -[b] [url="http://www.thefarriersarms.com/"]http://www.thefarriersarms.com/[/url][/b]

a significant number of the pubs in the largish town where i live (pop 300k ish) have turned into chinese take-aways - there are a handful of pubcos but the pubs which seem to do consistently well are the small independent free houses with loyal customers serving good beer and good food

Edited November 11, 2013 by steve-bbb

[Phil Adams]

I think it's really sad to see so many pubs closed, or becoming Thai or Indian restaurants, or "local" supermarkets. However things change, communities change, people change.
TV choice and cheap supermarket booze means people get more entertainment at home. Personally I don't think it's the pubco's fault, all they are doing is making a business out of the situation. Same seems to be happening in lots of trades, the big get bigger, and the small die.

[allighatt0r]

I've seen it happen to pubs we've played in. Pubco's put in terrible landlords over and over again after manufacturing a reason to kick out the previous landlady who had been running the pub successfully for many years. Pub is now looking like it could be closed any time now.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='steve-bbb' timestamp='1384162417' post='2273273']
well wether you like them or loathe them chains such as weatherspoons have a lot to answer for homogenising town and city pubs

[/quote]

Well, only as much as the people who use them. It takes two to tango.

[leroydiamond]

same story here in Ireland. Rural pubs are getting a hammering and urban pubs not much better. The pub gig scene is getting a bashing with landlords cutting costs where they can. Take away booze is dirt cheap, making a social night out uneconomical for many.

[BetaFunk]

This book was published in 1973....

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Death-English-Pub-Christopher-Hutt/dp/0099080206/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1384164600&sr=1-1&keywords=death+of+the+english+pub

If it wasn't for CAMRA and the many small independent breweries there would be even less pubs around today.

[uncle psychosis]

[url="http://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/arts/news/pubs-are-about-company-not-getting-drunk-1-3181729"]Pubs are about company, not getting drunk[/url]

Good article in the Scotsman over the weekend.

[KevB]

In many cases of 'pubcos' (particularly Wetherspoons) they took over buildings that were never pubs in the first place though.

[Happy Jack]

As a result of punting for gigs, I've been spending WAY more time in pubs recently than I ever used to. In the last three months alone I have spent time in at least 50 different pubs. This is mainly in West and Southwest London, but out as far as Slough and Farnham.

One sweeping generalisation that I'm happy to make is that the most successful pubs I've seen have been [i][b]either [/b][/i]cheap cheap cheap (and often filled with the "wrong" sort of people) [i][b]or [/b][/i]genuine community centres (and usually offering far more than beer and darts).

Pubs which have tried to buy an audience with just a weekly band, or karaoke, or a poker night, and missed the significance of being a "public house" have tended to be the ones to fail. I've actually put a bit of effort into trying to understand the business model of a pub paying £250 for a covers band on a Saturday night - turns out that it's almost always a loss leader, the music night is actually being subsidised by other, more profitable evenings when there's no band.

[Thunderbird]

I only really go to a pub if there is a band on I want to see but other than that I do not go in to pubs as I have to travel into town and not being able to drive it is a taxi job and that costs alot mind you if I am honest I have not been in a pub for about 2 years and I only drink alcohol at Christmas in small quantity's I dread to think how much a pint is nowadays. I do like the small country pubs in the summer as they have a good atmosphere I don't really like weatherspoon type pubs as I think they are what I would call Mcdonalds pubs lol

[borisbrain]

Ethnic cleansing? What a ridiculous statement. I can't comment on the economics, but it's true that I've heard many of our gig landlords complain about the likes of Enterprise. Some of our venues have had more managers than Chelsea over the last five years. I'd imagine the smoking ban and cheap off-licence booze haven't been very helpful either.

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='borisbrain' timestamp='1384173785' post='2273469']
Some of our venues have had more managers than Chelsea over the last five years. I'd imagine the smoking ban and cheap off-licence booze haven't been very helpful either.
[/quote]

True, all true, and also add in the fact that drink-driving became (with astonishing speed) social suicide about 20 years ago, that the Courts have been steadily more and more prepared to act on complaints about noise, that cable TV and the Internet have taken over many people's lives, and that we're at the tail-end (I hope) of the worst recession in living memory.

There is no purpose in saying that the death of pubs is caused by X, or Y, or Z. It's caused by society doing what it does, which is constantly changing.

The pubs which will survive will be those which either change with the times (e.g. gastropubs) or which find a genuine function to fulfil in the community.

[Dingus]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1384178443' post='2273561']
True, all true, and also add in the fact that drink-driving became (with astonishing speed) social suicide about 20 years ago, that the Courts have been steadily more and more prepared to act on complaints about noise, that cable TV and the Internet have taken over many people's lives, and that we're at the tail-end (I hope) of the worst recession in living memory.

There is no purpose in saying that the death of pubs is caused by X, or Y, or Z. It's caused by society doing what it does, which is constantly changing.

The pubs which will survive will be those which either change with the times (e.g. gastropubs) or which find a genuine function to fulfil in the community.
[/quote]

This is absolutely right . Pubs , like any other business on the High Street, are potentially a victim of social change . Businesses come and go, often reaching the point of demise because of changes in the wider culture of society at large. Look at how many bricks and mortar shops have been forced out of business by competition from the internet . Who could have predicted that thirty years ago? But those shops hadn't been there since time in memorium , were once themselves the vanguard of a new kind of consumerism , and had no divine right to exist . Even though they often serve as a focal pont within certain communities , ultimately public houses are no different to any other commercial enterprise . If people don't spend enough money with them or they are badly run , they fail.

The homogenisation of Britain's pubs is a terrible shame in so many ways - the huge variety of pubs was one of the most individualistic and endearing thing about this country- but their conglomeration into chains of theme pubs is just another example of the inevitable and unstoppable march of Globalisation . In other words , wherever there is money to be made , big international businesses will be making it , rather than smaller organisations or private individuals. They have the financial muscle and therefore the political influence necessary to dominate , and they are using it systematically to wring every penny out of wherever they can , regardless of the wider consequences for society . Wouldn't it be surprising if it were any other way, though?

Edited November 11, 2013 by Dingus

[Dingus]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1384165766' post='2273336']
[url="http://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/arts/news/pubs-are-about-company-not-getting-drunk-1-3181729"]Pubs are about company, not getting drunk[/url]

Good article in the Scotsman over the weekend.
[/quote]

Hang on a minute, Scottish people telling us that pubs aren't neccesarilly about getting drunk ? .

That's like me telling Suzannah Reid that it's not about sex, I just think your an incredibly talented journalist and television presenter. Or like me telling Carole Vorderman that she is not just a great arse to gawp at on T.V but actually genuinely really clever , i.e not quite true.

Edited November 11, 2013 by Dingus

[flyfisher]

[quote name='borisbrain' timestamp='1384173785' post='2273469']
I'd imagine the smoking ban and cheap off-licence booze haven't been very helpful either.
[/quote]

I'm sure cheap booze hasn't helped pubs but I'm not so sure about the smoking ban.

Many years ago, actually about 30-ish, we lived in North London and there was a story in the local paper about a pub having problems getting its licence renewed because of loads of complaints from its neighbours about car parking and generally increased traffic problems because of the pub's popularity.

It was a non-smoking pub! Quite a rarity back then, so it attracted people from further afield, hence the congestion problems.

[oggiesnr]

Part of the answer is for the banks to stop pretending that the big Pubcos are solvent businesses and pull the plug. At that point the properties are up for genuine sale, some will be sold for redevelopment, they're never going to be viable in any form, some will be sold as pubs to small companies and individuals who can (hopefully) make a go of it.

There was a small pubco round here (fourteen pubs) that had this happen to them. About half are now flourishing (the one next door has live music on a regular basis so I regard that as a win/win) the others are now something else.

Pubs have no divine right to succeed or exist just because they've always been there but it should be possible to sort out the wheat from the chaff if the banks would just accept the fact that the two big pubcos are zombie businesses.

steve

[BetaFunk]

[quote name='borisbrain' timestamp='1384173785' post='2273469']
I'd imagine the smoking ban and cheap off-licence booze haven't been very helpful either.
[/quote]
I agree about the smoking ban. For years i went regularly to my local pub specially in the summer when it was a joy to sit outside and have a couple of pints. Since the smoking ban it has ruined that pleasure as the air is full of smoke and you can't move for smokers milling around. I've been there twice since the ban.

Edited November 11, 2013 by BetaFunk

[uncle psychosis]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1384180951' post='2273600']


Hang on a minute, Scottish people telling us that pubs aren't neccesarilly about getting drunk ? .

That's like me telling Suzannah Reid that it's not about sex, I just think your an incredibly talented journalist and television presenter. Or like me telling Carole Vorderman that she is not just a great arse to gawp at on T.V but actually genuinely really clever , i.e not quite true.
[/quote]

Hilarious.

[JTUK]

Plenty of pubs doing well round here.....but maybe there are too many pubs and not enough good ones which is why you have so many managers moving on.
That is different from the pubs actually closing.

There are also a few towns that have 10 or so pub gigs a weekend..maybe more.

But yes... I do think there are too many pubs in general and too many bands trying to get in them..............

I do think that a pub will have to take £1000 to make the fee worth while..but maybe it is about turnover and selling rather than
having an empty pub for which the costs have to paid for anyway........

The best fee a pub will pay here is £500.... but you have to have the numbers stack up to be able to afford that..

Edited November 11, 2013 by JTUK

[Dingus]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1384194444' post='2273826']
Hilarious.
[/quote]

Thanks!

[The Dark Lord]

This appears to me to be a poorly written article by someone with an agenda. A pub landlord/lady should enter into a contract with his/her eyes open. If it's a contract they think will be of benefit to them, they should enter into it. No point bleating when it doesn't work out.

To me, very good pubs who have a market are thriving. Dead end old boozers, poorly managed, are closing.

What's the problem?

We're also changing our culture a bit in the UK. Moving away from pubs to having alcohol in cafés and restaurants. That's a good thing.

[YouMa]

2 Reasons this has happened most full on pub heads smoke. And it is just so expensive now to drink in a pub.

Edited November 11, 2013 by YouMa

[BetaFunk]

[quote name='YouMa' timestamp='1384209198' post='2274136']
2 Reasons this has happened most full on pub heads smoke. And it is just so expensive now to drink in a pub.
[/quote]
I doubt if it's any more expensive to drink in a pub than it was 40 years ago. It's just that there are now so many outlets for cheap booze.