"Bass is tough because a lot of the time the bass player is in the band just to make up the numbers"

[Maverick]

Been a while since I've posted here but I just read this interview with Andy Sneap and I thought it might make for an interesting discussion hereabouts. Personally I found it very disappointing to see such a high profile producer (in the heavy metal world at least, for those of you who haven't heard of him) come out with this kind of statement.

Yes he does go on to qualify it, but it's such a sweeping statement to come from someone who has worked with quite a lot of bassists I'd consider very talented. Perhaps goes some part of the way to explaining why the bass is so often criminally buried in the mix on metal albums, if this is a prevalent view amongst producers. Sneap himself has done some good mixes with quite prominent bass but I'm not always a fan of his production style, and he has been guilty of mixes with barely present bass.

Part of the problem in metal is the race to get the biggest, chunkiest guitar tone (which IMO Sneap has long been a proponent of) and the biggest kick sound, which both end up totally encroaching on what would otherwise be the bass's sonic territory, and I think this partly feeds in to the whole 'loudness war' issue as well. I much prefer a production that's more well balanced, but that just doesn't seem to be the way it's done these days, with a few decent exceptions.

[url="http://geargods.net/interviews/toontrack-metal-month-exclusive-interview-andy-sneap/"]http://geargods.net/...iew-andy-sneap/[/url]

Edited November 14, 2013 by Maverick

[paul_5]

I just read the interview and I reckon it's all a bit tongue in cheek - see his AC/DC comment…

[xilddx]

In a lot of heavy music bass is near redundant, especially since 7 and 8 string guitars hit the mainstream.

[thisnameistaken]

I've never done a rock band so I suppose this doesn't apply to me.

Also my main bass is a Thumb Bass. Actually to be fair my main bass these days is a 3/4 upright. The first one doesn't get stepped on by electric guitars at all which is part of the beauty of it, and the other pretty much never has to gig with electric guitars and very rarely with rock-miked drums.

Must suck to be a rock bassist though. I wouldn't want to do it.

[Maverick]

The AC/DC response clearly is, but I think he's answered the recording questions pretty straight up, given that he is trying to promote one of his recording products here.

Plus I would also say it rings true with a lot of his production work - as I say he is capable of making the bass shine through, but more often completely buries it behind the guitars.

[Maverick]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1384388371' post='2276244']
In a lot of heavy music bass is near redundant, especially since 7 and 8 string guitars hit the mainstream.
[/quote]

I disagree, There's some great bass work on albums that are heavily downtuned, the tuning itself doesn't negate the bass. It's only really an issue if you got an uncreative bassist who's not going to provide anything extra. A good production job [i]can[/i] allow the bass and guitars to co-exist nicely, but it happens too rarely and hence I think a lot of bassists in metal get less credit than they deserve.

Even Meshuggah tried to do the 8 string thing without a bassist but ended up going back to having one and they sound better for it IMO.

Edited November 14, 2013 by Maverick

[xilddx]

[quote name='Maverick' timestamp='1384389096' post='2276255']
I disagree, There's some great bass work on albums that are heavily downtuned, the tuning itself doesn't negate the bass. It's only really an issue if you got an uncreative bassist who's not going to provide anything extra. A good production job [i]can[/i] allow the bass and guitars to co-exist nicely, but it happens too rarely and hence I think a lot of bassists in metal get less credit than they deserve.

Even Meshuggah tried to do the 8 string thing without a bassist but ended up going back to having one and they sound better for it IMO.
[/quote]

Agreed mate. But some folks do think that way, as did Meshuggah. They realised their error of course

[gjones]

Looking at that comment in context, he's saying that he finds bass guitar is difficult to record well. That's because the guitars are so bass heavy, in the metal genre, that bass guitar disappears in the mix. I assume that the guitarists he works with are not prepared to compromise on their 'sound' and take up less of the sonic spectrum.

Edited November 14, 2013 by gjones

[Painy]

I remember the guy who produced one of my band's CDs talking about the production on Marilyn Manson's albums and how the guitars were kept very crunchy and bass light to create separation from the bass and kick drum which actually made the music sound heavier! I think a lot of the time the lack of bass in the mix on recordings is laziness. The producer assumes the listener will be less interrested in the bass than the guitars and so doesn't bother with it so much (unless its some stupid point being made by the rest of the band like ....And Justice For All of course)!

[TimR]

"Bass is tough because a lot of the time the bass player is in the band just to make up the numbers. It’s always a nice surprise to find a bass player that can play solid and play for the song."

I think he is referring to a lot of bass lines that are either root or doubling guitar. That's what he means by making up numbers. They're not bringing anything to the song.

[steve-bbb]

anybody listening to dave edmunds being interviewed on radio2 simon mayo show recently ....

... if you can play guitar you can play bass...

[Japhet]

Nothing new really. I generally find that when soundchecking or recording the process generally goes;

1) 40% of available time for singer to decide which mic sounds best, where is the best place to stand, how much reverb to use etc....

2) 30% of available time for guitarist(s) to dial in 'their sound', achieve deafening enough level of foldback, position pedal board in most inconvenient position on the stage, set levels for solos etc....

3)29.998% of available time to set kick drum and snare levels and monitors for drummer with obligatory 10 minutes of bomp bpomp bomp from said kick drum.

4) Remaining 0.002% of available time for bass player to play 1 low frequency note and 1 high frequency note to be told "Yeah! You're good to go mate".

[Happy Jack]

I've often wondered why so much time on a bass website is wasted discussing metal. Talk about "two bald men arguing about a comb".

Now, back to real music ...

[discreet]

So if you generally can't hear it in the mix, then ALL basses are good for metal.
Glad we finally got that one sorted out.

[CamdenRob]

What happened there? typed out a load of stuff then clicked something and it disappeared? ah well....

Rough gist was... I played in hardcore metal bands a lot when I was younger. Most bass players were failed guitarists who played the same as the guitar an octave down. I used to add alot of melody with the bass, we used to stand out as most bands in the genre had non existant bass... thing is... listening back to it... I think our bands were worse for having a proper bass player. Overall the bands would have achieved the sound they were going for better without any of my bass at all....

When I see hardcore bands now I really don't see the point of a bass guitar in this type of music?

Edited November 14, 2013 by CamdenRob

[steve-bbb]

[quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1384421673' post='2276408'].

When I see hardcore bands now I really don't see the point of a bass guitar in this type of music?
[/quote]

i dont see the point in this type of music >>>>>>>

[Dandelion]

Pig destroyer and Insect warefare have no bass player anyway..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ide0fQ_Jbj4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkz3QBaQYy8

Edited March 24, 2014 by icastle
Link fixed.

[discreet]

[quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1384421673' post='2276408']
When I see hardcore bands now I really don't see the point of a bass guitar in this type of music?
[/quote]

Particularly now that baritone guitars are finding their way into the genre.

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1384388548' post='2276247']
Must suck to be a rock bassist though. I wouldn't want to do it.
[/quote]

Depends what you call 'rock'. I like playing 'rock' bass, but wouldn't want to be a 'metal' player.

[discreet]

[quote name='Dandelion' timestamp='1384422787' post='2276427']
Pig destroyer and Insect warefare have no bass player anyway..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ide0fQ_Jbj4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkz3QBaQYy8
[/quote]

Christ, what a racket!
Not much point having a bass player when the kick drum is being hit so often it provides all the bottom end.

Edited March 24, 2014 by icastle
Link fixed.

[CamdenRob]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1384423110' post='2276433']
Particularly now that baritone guitars are finding their way into the genre.
[/quote]

Agreed... and to my ears, the bands without any bass sound better, or certainly not any worse.

[Lozz196]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1384388371' post='2276244']
In a lot of heavy music bass is near redundant, especially since 7 and 8 string guitars hit the mainstream.
[/quote]

And especially since so many of those bassists use a lot of distortion/drive that their sound blends in with those 7 & 8 string downtuned distorted/driven guitars.

[Dingus]

Maybe that is why so many Nu Metal bands use such a scooped out bass sound , i.e so the bass is deliberately inaudible. When Quincy Jones starts saying that the bass guitar is redundant then I will start paying attention . This chap specialises in making records with bands who look like they are the kind of men who grow mushrooms up their arse, so I am not too worried what he thinks about anything.

[JapanAxe]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1384445950' post='2276829']
This chap specialises in making records with bands who look like they are the kind of men who grow mushrooms up their arse, so I am not too worried what he thinks about anything.
[/quote]

[AntLockyer]

Mastodon have some bass involved. I've heard them described as metal.

[LiamPodmore]

I shot a band last month who didn't have a bass player, just 2 guitarists, 1 with a baritone, and they were the best sounding band of the night. I still think having a bass makes a difference 99% of the time, even if it's inaudible, it still adds to the depth of the track IMO.

Liam