Biaeothanata-Bassist Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 Hey guys I've got an old Marshall JCM 800 bass cabinet, the 4x12 one, and it's fitted with the original Celestion Pre Rola G12-65 speakers but one got replaced prior to my ownership with some no name 12" speaker. Now, it doesn't sound bad but I'm not happy with the no name one, it sounds crappy compared to the Celestions and I've been presented with the chance to buy a pair of Celestion G12-30 speakers for £20 each. My thinking is, I'll take out the no-namer which is in the top left position and the top right Celestion G12-65 speaker and replace the pair of them with a pair of the 30s and just keep the 65 safely boxed away somewhere in case something happens to one of the other 2. What i'm wondering though is whether this can cause serious damage to either of the pairs of speakers or the amp at all? I would literally just be removing the top 2 and replacing them with the 2 30s. No change in wiring. If this is a really bad idea, I won't do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinner Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 Are the ratings the same? ie Ohms and handling power, if they are then it should be a straighforward swap and a good move (in my opinion). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 If it was me I'd stop using guitar twelves and get a real bass cabinet. You're giving away an entire octave or more of bass response with the G12-65s, and G12-30s are no better. The only thing 'bass' about the JCM was what they chose to call it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 Yes...agree with BFM... sell the gtr cab to a guitarist and get a bass cab....assuming that is what you'll put through it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biaeothanata-Bassist Posted November 14, 2013 Author Share Posted November 14, 2013 (edited) [quote name='Skinner' timestamp='1384465507' post='2277173'] Are the ratings the same? ie Ohms and handling power, if they are then it should be a straighforward swap and a good move (in my opinion). [/quote] Hi Skinner, they're the same ohm rating so would that not be a problem? [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1384467383' post='2277195'] If it was me I'd stop using guitar twelves and get a real bass cabinet. You're giving away an entire octave or more of bass response with the G12-65s, and G12-30s are no better. The only thing 'bass' about the JCM was what they chose to call it. [/quote] [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1384469422' post='2277214'] Yes...agree with BFM... sell the gtr cab to a guitarist and get a bass cab....assuming that is what you'll put through it. [/quote] This was a question about mixing speakers, not about whether or not using these cabs for bass is a good idea. I've been using these cabs live for 6 years, been complimented on my bass tone many a time and never had a problem with the low end. So saying "the only thing bass about them is in the name" is a pointless remark to make. i'm sorry but people like these 2 annoy me. If you're not going to help on the subject at hand, please don't reply to it. Many bassists over the years have used them as BASS cabinets. Fine example, go listen to the first 3 Iron Maiden albums, Steve Harris used them with his rig for all that time live and in the studio before the speakers died and he eventually replaced them. Edited November 14, 2013 by Biaeothanata-Bassist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted November 15, 2013 Share Posted November 15, 2013 [quote name='Biaeothanata-Bassist' timestamp='1384465146' post='2277167'] Hey guys I've got an old Marshall JCM 800 bass cabinet, the 4x12 one, and it's fitted with the original Celestion Pre Rola G12-65 speakers but one got replaced prior to my ownership with some no name 12" speaker. Now, it doesn't sound bad but I'm not happy with the no name one, it sounds crappy compared to the Celestions and I've been presented with the chance to buy a pair of Celestion G12-30 speakers for £20 each. My thinking is, I'll take out the no-namer which is in the top left position and the top right Celestion G12-65 speaker and replace the pair of them with a pair of the 30s and just keep the 65 safely boxed away somewhere in case something happens to one of the other 2. What i'm wondering though is whether this can cause serious damage to either of the pairs of speakers or the amp at all? I would literally just be removing the top 2 and replacing them with the 2 30s. No change in wiring. If this is a really bad idea, I won't do it. [/quote] Good evening, Bianot... Beanotoe ... Biancot... oh, sod it... fellow BCer... You might find this of interest, it's a reply from Celestion to someone enquiring about these speakers... [url="http://www.guitarscanada.com/showthread.php?27061-Rola-Celestion-G12-30"]Celestion G12-30...[/url] Hope this helps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biaeothanata-Bassist Posted November 15, 2013 Author Share Posted November 15, 2013 (edited) Hey Dad(3353)! That's definitely a bit easier to say than my username. Thanks for the link, i'll go and check that out now. looks like an interesting read, especially the bit about how to test the magnets. Again, thanks for the pointer Edited November 15, 2013 by Biaeothanata-Bassist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted November 15, 2013 Share Posted November 15, 2013 I know nothing about these speakers, so, I can understand replacing the no-name but why do you want to replace a good 65? The 30's seem like a very good deal, so buy them and just put one in the cab and keep the other as the spare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Starr Posted November 15, 2013 Share Posted November 15, 2013 You are being a little unfair on BFM and JTUK. there are all sorts of issues about using speakers like these for bass and it is only right to warn people They blew all the time in the 70's and farted out at high levels and unless used carefully still will. they were never designed for bass. It's a shame to blow vintage gear and my instinct would be to trawl eBay for a replacement G12-65 to keep it original. Having said that if you get the sound you want and you are clearly being careful because they are still going then the other issues with mixing the speakers are these. make sure they are all equally loud. Most Celestion 12's are around 97dB/W but they vary between 96 and 100. If there is more than 1dB difference the louder speakers will dominate the sound, If the 12-30's are 30W speakers then your cab will be a 120W cab, less if you use bass boost. the handling of the cab is 4x the lowest powered speaker. The sound won't be the same as before, the two types of speakers will have different frequency peaks which won't line up and the sound will be a blend of the two, less characterful than the 12-65's on their own. To keep as much of the sound as possible use three 12-65's and one replacement. Celestion are very helpful, it might be worth emailing them and asking how compatible the new 12-65's are with the old. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The fasting showman Posted November 15, 2013 Share Posted November 15, 2013 (edited) Hello, I've owned a few Marshall bass 4x12s over the years (I think the current VBC412 is the best they've ever made) and have always enjoyed the sound in rock bands. Sorry if you already know this but the bass model 12s had a cone code (Kurt Mueller cones that is) of 444 , the lead models were 1777. When Celestion used to sell replacements back in the '80s the 12s were sometimes suffixed CE for cloth, or cambric, edge. Pulsonic cones have a different code but that's for the way back in the early '70s cabs. I think the 444 code implies 55hz resonance (rather than 75hz for 1777 cones) and obviously that's high by modern standards but great for the rock bass sound that you probably like. So to clarify, the Celestion model would appear the same, say G12-75, but the only differentiating factor between lead and bass was the cone code. So I've always tried to establish that the 12s in my old JMP or JCM cabs had the right cone code, often a lead speaker would get replaced into it just because somebody had got their hands on a G12-80 plonked it in and assumed that all things were equal. I think, just to muddy the waters, that the Celestion Vintage 30 has a 444 cone code but a paper edge; by that I'd avoid them for bass personally. Probably sound good if you can afford to keep replacing them! Cheers, Martin Edited November 15, 2013 by The fasting showman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 [quote name='Biaeothanata-Bassist' timestamp='1384473124' post='2277253'] Hi Skinner, they're the same ohm rating so would that not be a problem? This was a question about mixing speakers, not about whether or not using these cabs for bass is a good idea. I've been using these cabs live for 6 years, been complimented on my bass tone many a time and never had a problem with the low end. So saying "the only thing bass about them is in the name" is a pointless remark to make. i'm sorry but people like these 2 annoy me. If you're not going to help on the subject at hand, please don't reply to it. Many bassists over the years have used them as BASS cabinets. Fine example, go listen to the first 3 Iron Maiden albums, Steve Harris used them with his rig for all that time live and in the studio before the speakers died and he eventually replaced them. [/quote] Well done... you come on here and ask a basic question and then you post that. You know exactly what you can do next time you post something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musky Posted November 17, 2013 Share Posted November 17, 2013 To be fair, the question he was asking was about the validity of using different speakers, so the suggestion that he use a different cab altogether without any reference to the limited excursion of these speakers and the risk to them might have seemed completely off topic. The response of these cabs falls off a cliff at about 100hz so no, the won't produce any real bass but they do have a strong response in the low mids. I've used the same Marshall 4x12 for about 30 years and in that time only one speaker has gone - and that was when I lent it to a friend's rehearsal studio for six months. It sounds great for what I do, but I've learnt I don't go for a lot of bass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted November 17, 2013 Share Posted November 17, 2013 The OP asked a specific question and got a "steam rollering". I can see why the reply caused a reaction. The OP likes his sound, whether he gets "deep bass" or not so slagging off his choice of sound doesn't really fall under the heading of "good" or even "friendly alternative" advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biaeothanata-Bassist Posted November 20, 2013 Author Share Posted November 20, 2013 (edited) [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1384623535' post='2278898'] Well done... you come on here and ask a basic question and then you post that. You know exactly what you can do next time you post something. [/quote] I asked a basic question and you didn't actually reply to it, you just basically suggested the equipment I have is crap, went all elitist on the situation and said i need a different cabinet. Nope, no thanks to that. I'm quite happy with my cabinets cheers! So in future, please don't reply to my questions. [quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1384683563' post='2279350'] The OP asked a specific question and got a "steam rollering". I can see why the reply caused a reaction. The OP likes his sound, whether he gets "deep bass" or not so slagging off his choice of sound doesn't really fall under the heading of "good" or even "friendly alternative" advice. [/quote] [quote name='Musky' timestamp='1384680399' post='2279307'] To be fair, the question he was asking was about the validity of using different speakers, so the suggestion that he use a different cab altogether without any reference to the limited excursion of these speakers and the risk to them might have seemed completely off topic. The response of these cabs falls off a cliff at about 100hz so no, the won't produce any real bass but they do have a strong response in the low mids. I've used the same Marshall 4x12 for about 30 years and in that time only one speaker has gone - and that was when I lent it to a friend's rehearsal studio for six months. It sounds great for what I do, but I've learnt I don't go for a lot of bass. [/quote] Thank you, I'm glad you guys agree with me. The reply was totally off topic. I was purely asking about mixing speakers, not whether or not my cabinet is right for bass or not. Gah! But yeah, i have a 2x15 for if i ever want that real sub bass sound anyway which i barely ever do. I cut everything below 50/60hz anyway so it's not a problem for me losing a little extra. But as i said, thank you for your replies guys. [quote name='The fasting showman' timestamp='1384506316' post='2277388'] Hello, I've owned a few Marshall bass 4x12s over the years (I think the current VBC412 is the best they've ever made) and have always enjoyed the sound in rock bands. [/quote] I agree mate, the VBC412 is a structurally awesome cabinet but was just a bit on the heavy side for me. Do you know how i'd identify which cone I have on my current G12T-75s please? Also, thanks for the advise, it seems like it won't be worth putting a 30 in there. I'll just keep an eye out for an old 75 somewhere and leave the no namer in it for now. I believe the g12t-75's it's loaded with run at 97dB and have a frequency low point of 80hz running up to around 500hz so they're perfect for the range I sit my bass in as I use a lot of low mids, cut out some high mids and a fair amount of treble to get that rock/metal tone. I very rarely use a 5 string and the lowest tuning I drop to is Drop C on the odd occasion too! [quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1384502725' post='2277347'] You are being a little unfair on BFM and JTUK. there are all sorts of issues about using speakers like these for bass and it is only right to warn people They blew all the time in the 70's and farted out at high levels and unless used carefully still will. they were never designed for bass. It's a shame to blow vintage gear and my instinct would be to trawl eBay for a replacement G12-65 to keep it original.... [/quote] Thanks for the information there mate, that's actually helped a hell of a lot. Makes sense that the dB difference would cause a dominance between some of the speakers. Probably why I get a stronger sound from the 3 Celestions that are in there. Me and a friend recorded a couple of tracks with my cab, got a wicked sound from the proper speakers but it was lacking in power slightly when recording on the no namer (we tried all 4 for a blend) As i've said on a reply, i'm not going to get the 30s now, i'll just hold out and keep searching for another G12T-65 so go in it. That'll hopefully do the job! haha Cheers for the replies Edited November 20, 2013 by Biaeothanata-Bassist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The fasting showman Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 (edited) Hello again, The 444 cone code (written in white on the cone) is the bass version of the G12-75 that Celestion made for the JCM800 bass cabs, so that's the one you want. It came with a cloth edge. There's lots of info from people like Southbay Amp / Scumback works (I think!) online. Worth a look, but it is from the guitarist using bass speakers perspective. The 444 code bass speakers also cropped up in the pre JCM800 1982 model general purpose / high power cabs as well as the usual bass 4x12s, model 1935 and 1984 cabs . The speakers were (again from memory!) Celestion coded TF1281 and despite the Marshall black label the speakers were a G12-80 in the late JMP 1982s. I think these were a G12-30 descendant and featured 100db rating. There's also pre JCM800 G12-65s that had a 444 cone code, black Marshall label and a Celestion code of TF1221, these cropped up in Marshall 1935 cabs, 97db rating I believe. Probably again from the 1979-1981 era. So 2nd hand wise I'd be on the lookout for those two mentioned above as well as G12-75s and 65s with the 444 cone code. As with running valve amps you'll need a good rapport with repair people, reconers etc. Good luck, hope I've helped Martin Edited November 20, 2013 by The fasting showman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The fasting showman Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 To add, there's two G12-65s with 444 cone codes on ebay now. Same seller, one is £50 buy it now and the other £35 with a small repair. Might be worth a look? All the best, Martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.