Today I tried a few basses....why can't shops set them up?

[cameltoe]

In my search for a bass that feels 'right', with a slimmer neck profile than a regular Precision, I tried a few out today, hoping one would jump out at me. None did.

In order:
Nate Mendel P bass
MM Sub natural
MM Sub white
Overwater (tanglewood) JB1
Overwater (tanglewood) JB2

Unfortunately the whole experience was let down by the fact nobody seems to bother setting up their instruments before they put them on display.

The Nate and the 2 subs had ridiculously high action. Neck relief appeared to be ok at a glance (fretting 1st and 12th fret, sighting gap at 6th). Bridges way too high. On the mendel this caused me some concern as the bridge appeared to be at it's lowest possible adjustment, which would mean a shim. Not great on a brand new bass.

The JB1 again, relief ok, action too high at bridge. JB2, not enough relief- rattling like mad on first frets. Quick sight showed neck was completely flat.

Yes I like a low action, but you could have parked a bus beneath the strings on most of the basses I tried today.

Ruined it for me and made it impossible to tell if I liked any of them.

[molan]

I realise this is a crappy excuse but it's not a good time of year for shops who do bother to set instruments up

As it starts to get properly cold the overnight temps in a lot of retail environments fall and then there's often a nasty dry hear circulating during the day.

This can cause havoc with tuning and neck relief.

I help out at a local guitar store now and then and often set instruments up. I had an Alleva Coppolo perfectly set up, for me, recently with a really low action and when I played it this week it was rattling and buzzing like crazy. I had to give the neck more relief and raise the bridge a fraction as well.

I now need to go round the walls and re-set everything for the winter

Actually I quite like setting things up but a whole shop full might knock some of the fun out this week!

[cameltoe]

Yes I see what you're saying, my basses generally need a tweak every winter and summer, but mostly this seemed action rather than relief.

Very hard to get a feel for a bass when I could've limbo danced under the strings.

[Maude]

I'm just surprised that you found a shop in Cornwall that stocked five basses worthy of trying

[DarkHeart]

I agree, the basses I looked at today were shocking regarding set up, you would think that the shop would want to enhance the playability of any instrument they sold

Edited November 16, 2013 by DarkHeart

[molan]

[quote name='cameltoe' timestamp='1384640828' post='2279146']
Yes I see what you're saying, my basses generally need a tweak every winter and summer, but mostly this seemed action rather than relief.

Very hard to get a feel for a bass when I could've limbo danced under the strings.
[/quote]

The other thing that it's almost impossible to get right is an action that suits everyone

From a personal basis I totally agree about not being to play a bass with a high action but we often get people who want the action on a standard bass raised because they prefer it higher. Usually pick players or those who really hit the strings hard.

Sod's law usually means that a bass with a super low action will be tried by a heavy-handed player and a neck like a banana will get picked up by a light touch tapping chand chordal bassist, lol.

A lot of manufacturers supply 'factory settings' but, for my tastes, these tend to be universally high.

Generally I aim for a 'medium' action, take it down until it's buzzing a little and raise a decent amount at the bridge. Makes it relatively easier to quickly adjust if required (obviously not the best method but generally workable).

[4000]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1384643684' post='2279179']

we often get people who want the action on a standard bass raised because they prefer it higher. Usually pick players
[/quote]

This always makes me smile. I play mostly with a pick and I play extremely lightly and prefer an action which Chris May has described as "a guitar action". Probably because in reality I play more like a guitarist. ;-) I remember playing your Zon and the buckeye Fodera at Bass Day and I struggled with both as they were way higher than I'm used to. Liked the Zon though, as we discussed.

Molan's completely right; when I took my Alembic to the Gallery to sell it had the best setup I'd ever come across. When I went back to pick it up temperature and humidity changes had played havoc with it.

[Chiliwailer]

[quote name='cameltoe' timestamp='1384637066' post='2279103']

Unfortunately the whole experience was let down by the fact nobody seems to bother setting up their instruments before they put them on display.

[/quote]

Absolutely! I worked in guitar shops for 16 years and managed some in Denmark Street as well as the Bass Centre for a while. Here was my philosophy[list]
[*]If you don't have time to set them up before someone tries - take 2 minutes to adjust the truss rod at least before handing it to someone. Customers always appreciated that.
[*]Teach staff to adjust a truss rod, it so simple a child could do it. Andy's in Denmark Street had me doing set ups at age 15, none of it is rocket science!
[*]Guys in shops these days leave it to the shop tech so can't be bothered to set them up, see above
[/list]
There really is absolutely no excuse to be handed a guitar in a shop that's not playable.

[White Cloud]

Personally I agree with the OP. If I pick up a bass in a shop and it plays like crap I am not buying it ............

[chris_b]

Does a bad action/setup really stop you liking a bass?

I can tell a "good" bass from a "bad" bass even if it has an action I don't like. How does anyone buy a bass if they can be put off by the height of the strings?

Edited November 17, 2013 by chris_b

[deepbass5]

[quote name='Chiliwailer' timestamp='1384683288' post='2279347']
Absolutely! I worked in guitar shops for 16 years and managed some in Denmark Street as well as the Bass Centre for a while. Here was my philosophy[list]
[*]If you don't have time to set them up before someone tries - take 2 minutes to adjust the truss rod at least before handing it to someone. Customers always appreciated that.
[*]Teach staff to adjust a truss rod, it so simple a child could do it. Andy's in Denmark Street had me doing set ups at age 15, none of it is rocket science!
[*]Guys in shops these days leave it to the shop tech so can't be bothered to set them up, see above
[/list]
There really is absolutely no excuse to be handed a guitar in a shop that's not playable.
[/quote]


Sorry Chili, If i owned a shop I would not want my staff to go arround adjusting trusrods in five minutes to suit each customers preference, a bass could take a day to react to a 1/4 turn then a 1/4 turn the next day. I do my own but would be happy to get it right in 3 days along with string and bridge adjustments.
This problem in shops is about buying and selling as quick as possible by people who do not play bass possibly not even guitar properly.
A bespoke bass shop is unlikely to show this sort of contempt, so i only use them now and avoid the noisey guitar starter KIt shops on the high street.

[Chiliwailer]

[quote name='deepbass5' timestamp='1384690490' post='2279439']
Sorry Chili, If i owned a shop I would not want my staff to go arround adjusting trusrods in five minutes to suit each customers preference, a bass could take a day to react to a 1/4 turn then a 1/4 turn the next day. I do my own but would be happy to get it right in 3 days along with string and bridge adjustments.
This problem in shops is about buying and selling as quick as possible by people who do not play bass possibly not even guitar properly.
A bespoke bass shop is unlikely to show this sort of contempt, so i only use them now and avoid the noisey guitar starter KIt shops on the high street.
[/quote]

I'm speaking from experience.

You have these choices:[list]
[*]Hand someone a bass with a tight truss rod and lots of buzzing, or give it an adjustment
[*]Hand someone a bass with a lose truss rod and super high action, or give it an adjustment
[/list]
I'm not talking about a full set up so I'm not going to over complicate this by talking about how to do a set up (yawn), I'm talking about making a bass playable. It worked for me, it worked for the shop. It makes a bass playable for a test. Everyone where I worked sure did know how to play, and buying and selling is part of the business (of course!).

[cameltoe]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1384690371' post='2279435']
Does a bad action/setup really stop you liking a bass?

I can tell a "good" bass from a "bad" bass even if it has an action I don't like. How does anyone buy a bass if they can be put off by the height of the strings?
[/quote]

How can you tell if the bass is even capable of a nice low action if you're playing it with the action super-high?

Don't get me wrong, some felt better than others, and I'd hope I could still tell a dog from a good instrument regardless, but when you are hoping to make some kind of connection with a bass it's not easy if you are having to use shoulder muscles to fret.

I realise I'm not expecting to walk in to a shop and have every instrument set up just the way i like it, but it wouldn't take much to have the action at least playable on most of these instruments.

[molan]

[quote name='4000' timestamp='1384645897' post='2279206']


This always makes me smile. I play mostly with a pick and I play extremely lightly and prefer an action which Chris May has described as "a guitar action". Probably because in reality I play more like a guitarist. ;-) I remember playing your Zon and the buckeye Fodera at Bass Day and I struggled with both as they were way higher than I'm used to. Liked the Zon though, as we discussed.

Molan's completely right; when I took my Alembic to the Gallery to sell it had the best setup I'd ever come across. When I went back to pick it up temperature and humidity changes had played havoc with it.
[/quote]

Alembics are notorious for shifting around in autumn and spring. One of mine went from being near perfect to, quite literally, unplayable in a just a few days once. The neck had straightened and strings were more less laying flat on the board!

There's definitely an issue of people being frightened of truss rods and this means lots of 'everyday' shop assistants won't touch them. Maybe a bit of bridge height adjustment but that's it until the tech comes in.

Of course the worst are classic Fenders where you have to remove the neck to get at the truss rod - I dread having to sort a batch of these out. It's not that it's super hard or anything it's just the amount of time involved. We have a vintage J that's currently wearing flats and a pretty high action. It's certainly too high for me to be really comfortable on it so it's on my list to lower.

However, someone tried it this week and loved it and said the action and flats made it feel properly 'vintage'. I'm now in two minds whether to set it up for me or someone like him

[EssentialTension]

I'd never have any expectations of a bass, in a shop, being setup as I would like it. The strings would be the wrong kind for me. The action would be wrong for me.

I don't understand why you would expect a shop to setup a bass just for you.

[cameltoe]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1384695096' post='2279516']
I'd never have any expectations of a bass, in a shop, being setup as I would like it. The strings would be the wrong kind for me. The action would be wrong for me.

I don't understand why you would expect a shop to setup a bass just for you.
[/quote]

See below


[quote name='cameltoe' timestamp='1384692231' post='2279472']
.....I realise I'm not expecting to walk in to a shop and have every instrument set up just the way i like it, but it wouldn't take much to have the action at least playable on most of these instruments.
[/quote]

[EssentialTension]

But there'll be disagreement about what counts as playable.

[cameltoe]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1384699589' post='2279597']
But there'll be disagreement about what counts as playable.
[/quote]

True enough I guess. I have played some good instruments in the past where I thought 'Hmm, with a little tweak to my liking, this will be a nice bass for me'. This wasn't like that, this was more what's the point, might as well put it back in the rack unless I can get my allen keys out right now.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1384639759' post='2279135']
I realise this is a crappy excuse but it's not a good time of year for shops who do bother to set instruments up

As it starts to get properly cold the overnight temps in a lot of retail environments fall and then there's often a nasty dry hear circulating during the day.

This can cause havoc with tuning and neck relief.

I help out at a local guitar store now and then and often set instruments up. I had an Alleva Coppolo perfectly set up, for me, recently with a really low action and when I played it this week it was rattling and buzzing like crazy. I had to give the neck more relief and raise the bridge a fraction as well.

I now need to go round the walls and re-set everything for the winter

Actually I quite like setting things up but a whole shop full might knock some of the fun out this week!
[/quote] I found this in guitar shop in scotland when I asked why some of the reliefs were so out. Apparently quite warm in the day and then plunging to scottish winter temps at night - apparently one winter some of the necks were moving so much in the expensive guitars at the back the frets started lifting out.... which isn't great. You wonder how much it would cost to keep the room at a constant temp/humidity?

[molan]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1384705643' post='2279694']
I found this in guitar shop in scotland when I asked why some of the reliefs were so out. Apparently quite warm in the day and then plunging to scottish winter temps at night - apparently one winter some of the necks were moving so much in the expensive guitars at the back the frets started lifting out.... which isn't great. You wonder how much it would cost to keep the room at a constant temp/humidity?
[/quote]

Frets lifting is often a sign of the wood drying out due to too much warm air in the shop

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1384706035' post='2279700']
Frets lifting is often a sign of the wood drying out due to too much warm air in the shop
[/quote] yeah, did kinda put me off buying anything there. I did wonder how much it would cost to keep the shop more constant in temperature.

[White Cloud]

Any music shop that puts instruments on show, for sale, without even the most basic of preparation is cheating the customer out of a vital part of the service they should be providing for the potential customer.

Its basics folks.

[TomRichards]

As and endorsed artist of many years, and as a representative of two American boutique luthiers with price point lines. I see this complaint all the time. Even the very BEST dealers cannot set up every bass every day and often what even they consider low action is always somehow not low enough for the "discerning player."

First thing, way too many players are critical when a bass does not have stupid low action in the shop. Shops are in fact not guitar humidors, and stock can sit on a hook for a time, so to set up a bass with low action cries for it to be unplayable every other day considering the temp and environment changes it can experience. Take into account also that some necks are more stable then others, that one bass neck may be older wood and one newer, and its nearly impossible to keep every bass set perfectly, let alone with very low action.

Second, the bass must be set up to accommodate all ranges and styles of playing. For the majority of the world that means higher action closer to vintage Fender spec. So you get few if any strings buzzing, get a decent amount of volume and tone, and you get good feel for the overall bass. Many who decry the lack of "setup"in my personal experience are a particular player with a particular style, mostly jazzy with some tap and a little slap, but also play high up on the fingerboard nearly exclusively. This type of player, in my experience, likes to try many basses and rarely buys a bass. So to accommodate that particular customer over all others has severely diminishing returns.

The Brubaker Brutes that I represent are an amazing bass for the money. While they are designed to give as much of the boutique Brubaker quality as can be at the price point, the construction and design will never exactly match the capabilities that a custom, $5000+ Brubaker bass, or any custom bass for that matter, has. So while you may be able to dial in a Micheal Tobias Design USA Handmade bass to a near zero relief and action just barely above the fretboard and not experience buzzing or issues, the Kingston series MTD bass will probably not be able in many cases to do the same. Close, yes, but not the same.

The MM Sub basses are imports, lower price point basses for Musicman. Great builds at good prices, but they just aren't USA production/near hand mades. They will most likely be made with "younger" woods that will move with time and temp until they mature and settle in. When your dealer gets them, most likely they will have to do an initial set up but in short order there may be some neck movement and possibly fret sprout. In addition, the Musicman basses were ALL designed by Leo Fender and are designed around his Fender spec, so they are optimized at higher relief and action. I personally would never set up a demo bass or shop bass at anything other then factory spec as that is where it is designed to sound and play at its optimum, which clearly will help me sell more basses then if I set it up very low and it buzzes and craps alot for the majority of customers.

Lastly, with the exception of great dealers like Bass Direct, who love all things bass, if the stores in the UK are like those here, many of the floor people and salespersons have little or no experience with actual guitars or basses and many if not all have never done any work even on their own guitars, so they would have no clue as to how or what spec a bass is set to.

I do want to comment on your "action too high at the bridge" comment. You don't measure action at the bridge. You do it where the neck meets the body, which is normally the 17th fret. So the action on the basses you played may actually have been to factory spec.

My basses are normally around Fender spec, and I have played basses by many famous stuido musicians whose action was actually higher. You'd be surprised at how high action is actually the one used more for recording and live performances.

I am sad that you did not enjoy your day trying basses though.

[TomRichards]

Molan mentioned Alembic Basses. Yes, their necks can move a bit. But, if you take the time to read anything by Rick Turner, one of the two genius behind Alembic, .020" of relief for him and his designs is considered LOW ACTION! He is from the old school and the designs are built around their experience and style.

If you are serious about the purchase of a bass, and after you check it out you want to know if you can adjust the action low, just about any shop willl adjust the action for you to do a final try. Then you can see if it will go that low.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='TomRichards' timestamp='1385398112' post='2287741']

Lastly, with the exception of great dealers like Bass Direct[i] [and Bass Gallery, Bass Gear, MBL... ][/i], who love all things bass, if the stores in the UK are like those here, many of the floor people and salespersons have little or no experience with actual guitars or basses and many if not all have never done any work even on their own guitars, so they would have no clue as to how or what spec a bass is set to.

[/quote]

this...
I read your second post, and was about to reply when I found you saying the same thing as I was about to in your first post.
My local large shop doesn't have anyone on staff who can set up a guitar or bass. The nice secondhand bass I found needing the truss rod adjusted (a lot) didn't come home with me as I wasn't prepared to spend £800 finding out if the neck would go straight.