No Need To Learn Scales?

[Hobbayne]

Stumbled across a website and some youtube clips giving bass lessons on how to play bass, which gives the impression that learning scales are a waste of time. Unlike Scotts bass lessons, this site just shows you where to put your fingers and shows you note for note how to play a song.
I think that you need to know a major, minor or a pentatonic at least!

[Lozz196]

Depends, I knew scales without knowing them if that makes any sense. I can play a fair few, but only really know technically what a couple are. I really should knuckle down and learn some properly. But I can hear if what I`m playing is right or not so that`s the "knowing but not knowing part".

[ambient]

If you know a major, a minor and a major and minor pentatonic then it's just a matter of moving them about, the fingering is the same for each one. As long as you know your fretboard of course

[AntLockyer]

The site you are talking about is quite right. If you spend all your practice time on what they say at the end of it you'll be able to play those songs and can have a stab at others.

If however you spent a quarter of the time learning about chord tones and then get the chords to a song you'd be playing your own parts or copping the parts already played and sound good doing it.

Both ways will get you somewhere, where do you want to be?

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1384988715' post='2283321']
Depends, I knew scales without knowing them if that makes any sense. I can play a fair few, but only really know technically what a couple are. I really should knuckle down and learn some properly. But I can hear if what I`m playing is right or not so that`s the "knowing but not knowing part".
[/quote]
I suppose it depends what you are doing but the problem with knowing just by ear is only any good in the moment, I'm trying to learn walking lines on double bass where a chord chart is going to give you an advance warning to the scales you could use, i can easily play root and fifth all over it but it gets tricky if you want to add the more complex chord tones in. I wish i had got stuck into all this years ago

[Hobbayne]

Some fair points. I wish I had a website like that when I first started playing, I hadnt a clue what I was doing and just wanted to play my favourite songs which is what this site is offering, but the internet was not even thought of!
Still, I think a use of the even most basic of scales serves as a roadmap to the fretboard.

[ambient]

What's the point is that website ?

It's kinda like a painting by numbers thing kids have, sure you get a painting at the end that you've done, but there's nothing creative in it, it's not art. Watch where I put my fingers and you do the same, and pluck the same string at the right time and you too will play whatever bass line. Of course if the band you're in do it in a different key then you're kinda screwed

Mah, even if you can't be ***rd to learn all the notes on your fretboard at least learn the first five frets worth, and how hard is it to learn the fingering pattern of a minor or a major triad ?

Do that which seriously would only take a week or so doing an hour a day, then there are hundreds of websites where you can get chords to songs, and work out your own bass line.

A bass is normally tuned E A D G

The first 5 notes on the E string are F, F#, G, G# and A
A string notes are Bb, B, C, C# and D
D string notes are Eb, E, F, F# and G
G string notes are Ab, A, Bb, B and C

If you learn that then it'll be very easy and quick to learn the others when you're ready to.

A C major triad is played starting on the 3rd fret on the A string ( root - C), then 2nd fret on the D string (major 3rd - E) and then 5th fret on the D string (5th - G).
Simply move that pattern about anywhere on the bass and you be playing a major triad of whatever the first note is.

A C minor triad is played again starting 3rd fret on the A string, the only note different is the second one which is flattened or lowered by a fret to become a minor 3rd, or Eb in the C minor triad, the next note is the same. Again move that fingering pattern about anywhere and you again produce a minor triad for whatever note you start on.

It honestly just takes a very short time to learn that, probably the same time it takes to learn a song from the website mentioned.

Edited November 21, 2013 by ambient

[louisthebass]

Not sure which website it is you're referring to, but this is my 2p's worth; I don't think it hurts to know your Major, Minor, Major Pentatonic and Minor Pentatonic scales. To me, they're the Lego Bricks of 99% of Rock, Pop, Blues, Country and any other mainstream type of music that the general public listen to. Your chord tones come from your Major and Minor scales, and they are the things you need most in order to function as a bass player in a band. The other notes in the scale add harmonic interest if you choose to use them in your bass playing.

[Count Bassy]

[quote name='louisthebass' timestamp='1385108697' post='2284475']
Not sure which website it is you're referring to, but this is my 2p's worth; I don't think it hurts to know your Major, Minor, Major Pentatonic and Minor Pentatonic scales. To me, they're the Lego Bricks of 99% of Rock, Pop, Blues, Country and any other mainstream type of music that the general public listen to. Your chord tones come from your Major and Minor scales, and they are the things you need most in order to function as a bass player in a band. The other notes in the scale add harmonic interest if you choose to use them in your bass playing.
[/quote]

I agree with what you're saying, but I also believe that these sort of websites also have a place. After all what's the difference between learning from this type of website and learning something from Tabs? When you're just starting out you want to play a tune, not spend weeks learning scales, and if your told you have to learn scales first then the chances are you'll get demoralised and not get beyond those first few weeks.

PS: Sounds a bit like Paul Wolf's "How to play Bass" website

[miles'tone]

http://www.carolkaye.com/www/education/index.htm

No, just gets your chords down, learn how they cycle and be both creative and musical from the start.

Check out the Carol Kaye method. She's one of the most recorded bassists ever and for good reason.

[ambient]

[quote name='Count Bassy' timestamp='1385130747' post='2284800']
I agree with what you're saying, but I also believe that these sort of websites also have a place. After all what's the difference between learning from this type of website and learning something from Tabs? When you're just starting out you want to play a tune, not spend weeks learning scales, and if your told you have to learn scales first then the chances are you'll get demoralised and not get beyond those first few weeks.

PS: Sounds a bit like Paul Wolf's "How to play Bass" website
[/quote]

Kind of disagree, you can be learning scales, fingerboard notes, chords, triads etc, at the same time as learning songs, you don't have to do the things as separate parts.

Personally I'd prefer to learn to paint, than just be told that this colour goes there and this one here etc, painting by numbers analogy again, sorry .

[Myke]

I think this just shows the different types of bassist out there.

1. You get the ones who want to play songs and not learn all that rubbishy theory stuff

2. You get the ones who want to understand how to play bass so learn the theory and use it how they will.

3. You get the ones who want to play songs and then realise all that other theory stuff can actually be damn useful!

I'm sure there are other types as well so they can be added on

Also this goes any type of musician not just bassists..

[CamdenRob]

Well there is no "need" to learn scales.... there is also no "need" to be any good...

Edited November 22, 2013 by CamdenRob

[ubassman]

In the DB world we have no frets and no dots marking notional 5th, 7th 12th fret positions. Scales and arpeggios are a fantastic way of navigating the fingerboard and knowing where the variations on the notes are - its pretty liberating to open up things that way.

I find it quite a fascinating process when sight reading though a new piece to consider the options. In a piece that is maybe in A I may decide to have the notes fall under my hand in 5th fret position working up a scale pattern there because the next changes mean that I need to be even higher up the fingerboard and that makes complete sense ....or whether to play the same notes using a different scale pattern starting with an open A low down at 1st / 2nd fret because thats where the music stays down low ...or alternatively playing with yet another scale pattern rising solely on the A string or a combination of all things.

The use of repeatable patterns and scales is pretty powerful foothold when it comes to improvising . Anyone use Jerry Cokers patterns for jazz? [url="https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B48okE6igcdfdWJNUEM0Q1M4TVk/edit?pli=1"]https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B48okE6igcdfdWJNUEM0Q1M4TVk/edit?pli=1[/url]

[Grangur]

[quote name='Myke' timestamp='1385133361' post='2284848']
I think this just shows the different types of bassist out there.

1. You get the ones who want to play songs and not learn all that rubbishy theory stuff

2. You get the ones who want to understand how to play bass so learn the theory and use it how they will.

3. You get the ones who want to play songs and then realise all that other theory stuff can actually be damn useful!

I'm sure there are other types as well so they can be added on

Also this goes any type of musician not just bassists..
[/quote]

My son's mate lives with us. He's "played" guitar for 10 years. He has a large repertoire of songs he plays. The guitar is tuned to drop C, so for a lot of numbers he bridges all the strings with 1 finger and strums as he moves the finger up and down the FB. The others are all learned with tabs.

I was going to play a bass line with him the other day. I asked what key he was playing in.... blank look.
Can he find a C on the FB.... no.

There are 1000's of players the same I'm sure. .But are they guitarists REALLY?

[fretmeister]

I wish I had started earlier with theory.

Since joining my daughter's school orchestra I've been thrown in the deep end - given sheet music and expected to play it immediately. I've been blagging it when there are chord charts above it the bars, but often there aren't any.

So I bought Stuart Clayton's 'Reading Music' series of books and started from scratch.

Only had them about 6 weeks and often can only fit in an hour per week study, but it has transformed my performance and enjoyment of the orchestra group - and last Saturday I managed to sight read something properly for the first time in about 25 years of playing bass!

It's opened up so much music, and lets me join in with almost anything where a full piano score is available. I'm a long way off being able to sight read fully and confidently but I am very pleased I took the plunge!

[Myke]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1385134004' post='2284861']
There are 1000's of players the same I'm sure. .But are they guitarists REALLY?
[/quote]

I completely agree with you but I don't like to say so because I'm sure there are players like that on this forum who consider themselves bassists and I don't like to argue..

[xgsjx]

When I started playing they had books that just taught you songs note for note. I believe you can still get them, they was called transcriptions.

[louisthebass]

[quote name='Count Bassy' timestamp='1385130747' post='2284800']
I agree with what you're saying, but I also believe that these sort of websites also have a place. After all what's the difference between learning from this type of website and learning something from Tabs? When you're just starting out you want to play a tune, not spend weeks learning scales, and if your told you have to learn scales first then the chances are you'll get demoralised and not get beyond those first few weeks.

PS: Sounds a bit like Paul Wolf's "How to play Bass" website
[/quote]
I think you may be right in the respect of people who want to able to learn some of their favourite songs fairly quickly. I can only speak for myself, but it seemed natural to want to know how this music thing works, especially when I was in my first band and I didn't have a clue what I was doing. The debate about whether to "learn your scales" or not will always divide opinion on here - it's been done many a time.

[ubassman]

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1385134318' post='2284865']
It's opened up so much music, and lets me join in with almost anything where a full piano score is available. I'm a long way off being able to sight read fully and confidently but I am very pleased I took the plunge!
[/quote]

Joining an orchestra is a brilliant way of pushing sight readings skills and after a while the sight reading becomes invisible but also so does the learning of scales and connection ...thats when it becomes really great to put that into ones own music.

[Coilte]

It is always the people who [i]dont[/i] know any scales/theory who say there is no need to learn them. I have yet to come across someone who does know some theory, who will state the same thing.

[fretmeister]

[quote name='ubassman' timestamp='1385135093' post='2284877']
Joining an orchestra is a brilliant way of pushing sight readings skills and after a while the sight reading becomes invisible but also so does the learning of scales and connection ...thats when it becomes really great to put that into ones own music.
[/quote]

I got press-ganged!

I dropped my daughter off and the teacher said he knew I played bass, so I should get my arse inside and join in. I used a spare bass, was given sheet music which I hastily scribbled the note names on... and tried to play very quietly.

That was 18 months ago, and I'm still going every Saturday. My daughter (on clarinet) reads music very well indeed and keeps the pressure on!

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1385134004' post='2284861']


My son's mate lives with us. He's "played" guitar for 10 years. He has a large repertoire of songs he plays. The guitar is tuned to drop C, so for a lot of numbers he bridges all the strings with 1 finger and strums as he moves the finger up and down the FB. The others are all learned with tabs.

I was going to play a bass line with him the other day. I asked what key he was playing in.... blank look.
Can he find a C on the FB.... no.

There are 1000's of players the same I'm sure. .But are they guitarists REALLY?
[/quote]
Thats how those guitar pro things work I beleive but there is no need to detune the guitar as its preshaped into a major bar chord, some people just like a quick result, unfortunately those cheats lead to an almost impossible transition to actually playing.

[ubassman]

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1385135809' post='2284884']
I got press-ganged!

I dropped my daughter off and the teacher said he knew I played bass, so I should get my arse inside and join in. I used a spare bass, was given sheet music which I hastily scribbled the note names on... and tried to play very quietly.

That was 18 months ago, and I'm still going every Saturday. My daughter (on clarinet) reads music very well indeed and keeps the pressure on!
[/quote]

Brilliant !

I am always impressed at how 50 musicians can sit in a room and read a new piece for the first time and this amazing sound comes out - thats just everybody knowing where to find someone else's written down notes on their chosen instrument.

Back to the OP ...its like all things in music if what you are learning is relevant to what you play then its important if its not relevant, then its not important. Plenty of people dont sight read, or know scales but make the most amazing music.

Edited November 22, 2013 by ubassman

[fretmeister]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1385135870' post='2284886']
Thats how those guitar pro things work I beleive but there is no need to detune the guitar as its preshaped into a major bar chord, some people just like a quick result, unfortunately those cheats lead to an almost impossible transition to actually playing.
[/quote]

It's not always a cheat to alter tuning - as long as you still know where the notes are.

Devin Townsend always tunes to an Open Major chord as it allows access to voicing that would be impossible on regular tuning because of stretch length.

But he still knows every note he's playing! (and bloody hell he's good!)