No Need To Learn Scales?

[icastle]

You don't have to learn scales, but it sure as hell makes things easier on your nerves and your audiences ears.

[ezbass]

[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1385138381' post='2284932']
You don't have to learn scales, but it sure as hell makes things easier on your nerves and your audiences ears.
[/quote]Very much this; even if you only know the difference between major and minor will help. I know of a bass player who tends to play major fills over minor progressions - all sorts of wrong

[icastle]

[quote name='ezbass' timestamp='1385140855' post='2284975']
I know of a bass player who tends to play major fills over minor progressions - all sorts of wrong
[/quote]

Les Dawson tribute band?

[JapanAxe]

When I started learning guitar back in 1978, I read up on theory too. I learned how to 'spell' chords by working out the note relationships in the chord chart at the back of my 'Hootenanny Sing-Along Song Book' (still got it!) e.g. Maj7 = R, 3, 5, M7; m6 = R, b3, 5 [optional], 6.

When I then went on to learn the major scale forms on the guitar, I found it had unexpected benefits:[list]
[*]I could play better by ear, e.g. hear a melody and play it (in any key);
[*]My improvisation improved, because I knew where the notes were and what they would sound like before I could play them; and.
[*]I could sight-sing from written music (at least in relative pitch terms - I don't have perfect pitch).
[/list]
Playing today on guitar or bass, I am always referring back to where I am in the chord and/or in the scale. A lot of this now goes on subconsciously, but it has stood me in good stead and avoided a lot of duff notes along the way.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1385137582' post='2284917']


It's not always a cheat to alter tuning - as long as you still know where the notes are.

Devin Townsend always tunes to an Open Major chord as it allows access to voicing that would be impossible on regular tuning because of stretch length.

But he still knows every note he's playing! (and bloody hell he's good!)
[/quote]
I agree but tuning the guitar to C or using a plastic grip shaped like a chord is a cheat, the books that come with those things just use a fret number, i imagine disco numbers with lots of octaves are not popular!

[lojo]

[quote name='ezbass' timestamp='1385140855' post='2284975']
Very much this; even if you only know the difference between major and minor will help. I know of a bass player who tends to play major fills over minor progressions - all sorts of wrong
[/quote]

Even if you don't know scales (which Im not endorsing) ears still know whats right and wrong, are you talking about players who play the wrong notes because they think they are right over it sounding right ?

[Sean]

Carol Kaye always encouraged students to stay away from learning scales by rote and instead heavily encouraged (is she dead? I'm referring to her in the past tense and sounds natural) learning arpeggios. She also discouraged using major thirds and claimed to have played all the major Motown bass lines so you have to be careful with anything she says. Very generous with her time though.

I learned scales on guitar. I learned arpeggios on bass and find them to be infinitely useful. I'm off now - I'm just not into posting on Basschat like I used to be.

[BigRedX]

Surely right and wrong note choices is largely subjective and to a certain extent dependant upon the genre of music you are playing. Certainly the intervals and harmonies I'm using with my current band wouldn't have sounded right with the band I was in 10 years ago.

[Myke]

[quote name='Sean' timestamp='1385143812' post='2285012']
(is she dead? I'm referring to her in the past tense and sounds natural)
[/quote]

Nope

[Myke]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1385143869' post='2285015']
Surely right and wrong note choices is largely subjective and to a certain extent dependant upon the genre of music you are playing. Certainly the intervals and harmonies I'm using with my current band wouldn't have sounded right with the band I was in 10 years ago.
[/quote]

This is true but surely it's your choice of note not the right and wrongness of the note that will change.

[Dingus]

Knowing scales and arpegios is extremely useful in learning how to play the bass, providing, of course, you also learn the appropriate ways to apply them to playing music.

Even if you just learn the scales and arpegios in isolation , they won't do you any harm , and probably do you a lot of good in the long run. Getting familiar with scales and arpegios can be very helpful in tuning your ear to the different intervals and the relationships between them , too. Without wishing to be provocative or controversial , when it comes to playing music, the more knowledge you have, the better. The more you know, the greater capacity you have to be creative. I'm not saying that you can't play or be creative without some knowledge of theory like scales ect, but the suggestion that not knowing them makes you more creative is sophistry, I'm afraid. As I have said before on Basschat (and someone accused me of being elitist,) , people who don't know any theory are using exactly the same rules of music as those who do, whether they realise it or not .

Edited November 22, 2013 by Dingus

[BigRedX]

IMO Carol Kaye is right about major 3rds. I tend to avoid them unless I'm after something cheesy and obvious. Otherwise suspended 4ths, major 7ths and 9ths all sound better (more interesting) to my ears.

[JapanAxe]

Not sure what CK has against major thirds. Jamerson used them plenty.

[Dingus]

[quote name='JapanAxe' timestamp='1385145920' post='2285064']
Not sure what CK has against major thirds. Jamerson used them plenty.
[/quote]

J.S Bach was quite fond of them too, and he knew how to write a bassline.

[Thunderbird]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1384988715' post='2283321']
Depends, I knew scales without knowing them if that makes any sense. I can play a fair few, but only really know technically what a couple are. I really should knuckle down and learn some properly. But I can hear if what I`m playing is right or not so that`s the "knowing but not knowing part".
[/quote] Pretty much this I am 99% book and self taught I really don't know much about scales and theory but I do sometimes find myself using them without knowing at the time I think when I am happy with my playing which will probably be never lol I am going to read up and learn about the theory side up stuff properly as not knowing all about it is kind of embarrassing when your mates speak all "techy" and you don't really know what they are on about and kind of blag your way through it, wellI do anyway.

[Myke]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1385145079' post='2285044']
As I have said before on Basschat (and someone accused me of being elitist,) , people who don't know any theory are using exactly the same rules of music as those who do, whether they realise it or not .
[/quote]

I don't understand how people could disagree with this. What ever you play would be explained by theory if you thought hard enough.

[ambient]

I wonder why she said that about the major 3rd ?

If you want to show that something you're playing over is major then play the major 3rd, or more importantly if what you're playing over is from mixolydian or dominant 7th, then it's the major 3rd that you would play to emphasise what it is.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1385146473' post='2285075']
If you want to show that something you're playing over is major then play the major 3rd, or more importantly if what you're playing over is from mixolydian or dominant 7th, then it's the major 3rd that you would play to emphasise what it is.
[/quote]

Because to my ears it makes the music sound trite and obvious. On bass I'd use it as a passing note, but never for more than half a beat, on the guitar I always mute the major 3rd or replace it with the 9th.

Of course all it shows is that what we consider good and poor note choices are just subjective.

[ezbass]

[quote name='lojo' timestamp='1385143103' post='2285001']


Even if you don't know scales (which Im not endorsing) ears still know whats right and wrong, are you talking about players who play the wrong notes because they think they are right over it sounding right ?
[/quote]More, 'I've learnt a fill and I'm gonna use it - no matter what.'

[Count Bassy]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1385132775' post='2284842']
Kind of disagree, you can be learning scales, fingerboard notes, chords, triads etc, at the same time as learning songs, you don't have to do the things as separate parts.

Personally I'd prefer to learn to paint, than just be told that this colour goes there and this one here etc, painting by numbers analogy again, sorry .
[/quote]

Just to point out that I'm not saying don't do the theory, or that you don't need to (It's certainly transformed my playing!). All I'm saying is that these sort of sites, and tabs, have their place as well. If they allow a few people to get started on the bass without being frightened off by theory then I'm not going to knock them, however the sites themselves shouldn't suggest that theory doesn't help!

Personally I've not used one of these sites, and only used tabs once to try and crack a bit I couldn't work out by ear.

[Chooglin stu]

Wel am 28 and av been playing from the age of 15 ... I can't read any music and if you asked me to play a scale I wouldn't know where the hell to start lol but there's nothing I can't play ! I just need to hear a song and I pick it out and I always play the songs properly and miss nothing , my brothers the same , he plays guitar and together we play in a David bowie tribute band , so in my opinion you just need to have a good ear to be a good musician

[AntLockyer]

[quote name='Chooglin stu' timestamp='1385320443' post='2286901']need to have a good ear to be a good musician
[/quote]

That's not what you really mean is it? You can be a good musician if you have a good ear and experience. Or you can be a good musician if you have adequate learning and experience.

[ambient]

[quote name='Chooglin stu' timestamp='1385320443' post='2286901']
Wel am 28 and av been playing from the age of 15 ... I can't read any music and if you asked me to play a scale I wouldn't know where the hell to start lol but there's nothing I can't play ! I just need to hear a song and I pick it out and I always play the songs properly and miss nothing , my brothers the same , he plays guitar and together we play in a David bowie tribute band , so in my opinion you just need to have a good ear to be a good musician
[/quote]

But you may have a problem if you don't get to hear the song before hand, or if the band says "nah, that didn't work let's try it in Bb instead of C"

I don't remember the last time I had a rehearsal before a gig. Most of mine are either reading scores or playing from a real book or other chart. I don't get to hear the song beforehand, I doubt the audience would be too pleased if the band announced "we're just gonna run through this song so's the bass player can hear his part".

Edited November 24, 2013 by ambient

[JapanAxe]

[quote name='Chooglin stu' timestamp='1385320443' post='2286901']
Wel am 28 and av been playing from the age of 15 ... I can't read any music and if you asked me to play a scale I wouldn't know where the hell to start lol but there's nothing I can't play ! I just need to hear a song and I pick it out and I always play the songs properly and miss nothing , my brothers the same , he plays guitar and together we play in a David bowie tribute band , so in my opinion you just need to have a good ear to be a good musician
[/quote]
If you are lucky enough to have a 'good ear' from the off, fair enough, but I have found that knowing and understanding scales has helped my musical ear no end.

BTW which Bowie tribute are you in? I'm a huge Bowie fan.

[ambient]

There's also a subtle difference between being a bass player or guitarist, and being a musician.

I can paint a room but I'm not a decorator, I once put a plug on an amp, but I'm certainly not an electrician.

Being a musician encompasses so much more than being able to play a given bass line or guitar part.

Edited November 24, 2013 by ambient