1-5-2 chord progression....eg: verve lucky man...is it rare?

[iconic]

So lucky man goes something. like G D Asus4 in G, which to me with my well known lack of theory would make it a 1,5,2 chord progression.

I googled 1,5,2 chord progressions and nothing came up....not even examples by those chordal funsters the Beatles.

what have i misunderstood....i understand that the Asus4 has no 3rd so is neither major or minor....or diminished come to think of it.

Edited November 22, 2013 by iconic

[gary mac]

My head is not working just yet, so I'll come back to this when the caffeine has kicked in.

[iconic]

Cheers enjoy that coffee...the answers most likely my theory is lacking!

[JapanAxe]

I transcribed Lucky Man for bass and treated A as the key centre, which would make it bVII-IV-I, sometimes referred to as a double plagal cadence.

I later got the notation/tab book for guitar, and that puts it in D, which would make it IV-I-V. I think they have done this to cut down on the number of accidentals, e.g. they would have to put a natural sign in front of every G note if they wrote it out in A. It's not unusual for transcribers to do this, effectively using the D key signature to reflect the notes in the A mixolydian mode.

The key centre definitely feels like A to me. I don't see how it would be G though - the first (or last) chord is not always the key centre.

Perhaps someone else who knows music theory could chip in. Ambient? Bilbo?

EDIT - no the A chord is not diminished as it contains the note E, which would be flattened in Adim.

EDIT 2 - other examples of bVII-IV-I are Desire by U2 and Gloria by Them (which is actually I-bVII-IV but as it's repeated it has the same effect).

Edited November 22, 2013 by JapanAxe

[chris_b]

I'ts in A. The chord sequence is G D A that's b7 4 1.

Edited November 22, 2013 by chris_b

[Hobbayne]

The Beatles use that sequence in the opening and closing riff of "Dig A Pony"

[JapanAxe]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1385113061' post='2284531']
I'ts in A. The chord sequence is G D A that's b7 4 1.
[/quote]
So then - we're agreed! [said in stilted 40s radio voice]

[iconic]

thanks guys, I just found the sheet music and it describes it as in D major?

a 4-1-5 (IV-I-V)

[url="http://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic/mtdFPE.asp?ppn=MN0069552"]http://www.musicnote...p?ppn=MN0069552[/url]

Edited November 22, 2013 by iconic

[iconic]

'Dig a pony', never head that one, thanks

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfK67uzz83o&list=TLFXURfTrdCYE"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfK67uzz83o&list=TLFXURfTrdCYE[/url]

[iconic]

I got the key of G from E-Chords

[chris_b]

[quote name='iconic' timestamp='1385119668' post='2284612']
....the sheet music and it describes it as in D major....
[/quote]

The key isn't important for your bass line. The root note is A and the sequence goes b7 4 1.

[dlloyd]

It's in A mixolydian. The b7 4 1 (1 b7 4) progression is a classic... Sweet Home Alabama for instance. It has the same notes and chords as you would find in D major, but the tonic is on the Dominant chord... there's no resolution to D.

[dlloyd]

Here's a nice treatment of the chromatic subtonic (b7):

[url="http://www.angelfire.com/space/u_line/thechro1.htm"]http://www.angelfire.com/space/u_line/thechro1.htm[/url]
[url="http://www.angelfire.com/space/u_line/thechro1.htm"]http://www.angelfire.com/space/u_line/thechro2.htm[/url]

[nottswarwick]

It is D Major, technically.

So it is IV G, I D, V A

Which is what A Mixolydian is - 5th mode of D Major. This also fits the Em later int he song. That is chord ii of D major.

The "key" refers to the parent scale from which all the chords are derived. It does not have to be the chord that a song starts or finishes on. So the Sweet Home Alabama referenced above uses chords D, C, G. To be technically correct this is a song in G Major, as those chords are V D, IV C, and I G of the key of G.

Hope that helps a bit. It's quite hard to explain it properly on a message board to be honest. With my student we go through what is called the diatonic harmonisation of the major scale, which is essentially showing how the main chords in any key are formed for that parent scale.

Edited November 22, 2013 by nottswarwick

[dlloyd]

[quote name='nottswarwick' timestamp='1385128275' post='2284767']
It is D Major, technically.
[/quote]

Technically, the tonic chord is A, so it absolutely isn't in D major... Just as a song in B minor isn't in D major. it's A major with a chromatic subtonic substitution. The tonic chord gives the key of the piece, not the collection of chords.

However, there is a certain amount of muddiness about this and while it's theoretically "more correct" to notate a piece in A mixolydian as A major with accidentals, a lot of publishers will just deal with it as if it's in D major.

[DaveFry]

1,5,2 Chord Progression ; " Knocking On Heaven's Door "

- See if Google finds that now .....^

[nottswarwick]

[quote name='dlloyd' timestamp='1385133903' post='2284860']


Technically, the tonic chord is A, so it absolutely isn't in D major... Just as a song in B minor isn't in D major. it's A major with a chromatic subtonic substitution. The tonic chord gives the key of the piece, not the collection of chords.

However, there is a certain amount of muddiness about this and while it's theoretically "more correct" to notate a piece in A mixolydian as A major with accidentals, a lot of publishers will just deal with it as if it's in D major.
[/quote]

Can it not be described both ways though?

[JapanAxe]

[quote name='nottswarwick' timestamp='1385141198' post='2284983']
Can it not be described both ways though?
[/quote]
No, the D major key signature only tells you the set of notes used. Your ear will tell you that 'A' is 'home' for that song.

[nottswarwick]

[quote name='JapanAxe' timestamp='1385142808' post='2284999']

No, the D major key signature only tells you the set of notes used. Your ear will tell you that 'A' is 'home' for that song.
[/quote]

Yes, but "key" and "home" do not necessarily have to be the same. Is not one way of thinking is that "key" is "parent scale" is "set of notes"? Key signature IS the key. Or you can think about it as per dloyds posts. Nether is wrong.

[nottswarwick]

I'd always try to present it 2 ways....

It can be said to be in D major, with a tonal centre or home chord of A

Or

It can be said to be in A, with a flattened 7th which would be represented by accidentals the sheet music. Ie, A mixolydian.



Nice thread this. :-)

EDIT just realised I seem a little argumentative above. Sorry. I'm actually agreeing with everything said in japanaxes detailed post towards the top. I'm just saying that it is not incorrect to also say that it is in the "key" of D major, with a home chord of A. In my view that is just as correct as the other A view, since it does use the D major scale for all the chords and melody, which is in effect exactly what A mixolydian is anyway - the 5th mode of the D major scale. Neither approach is wrong, just a difference way of writing the same thing.

Edited November 22, 2013 by nottswarwick

[iconic]

many thanks guys, I've learnt a fair bit with your help

[dlloyd]

[quote name='nottswarwick' timestamp='1385143508' post='2285005']
Yes, but "key" and "home" do not necessarily have to be the same.[/quote]

Technically they are the same thing. However, sometimes easier is better.

[nottswarwick]

I was just trying to make it simpler, that's all, but you are right :-)

[dlloyd]

[quote name='nottswarwick' timestamp='1385159264' post='2285288']The term "key" is meant to indicate the parent scale from which the progression is formed.
[/quote]

No, the key really does refer to the tonal centre. A progression consisting entirely of Em Am Dm, is not in C major.

Edit: and I'm also conscious that this appears argumentative... not my intention

Edited November 22, 2013 by dlloyd

[nottswarwick]

[quote name='dlloyd' timestamp='1385161221' post='2285309']


No, the key really does refer to the tonal centre. A progression consisting entirely of Em Am Dm, is not in C major.

Edit: and I'm also conscious that this appears argumentative... not my intention
[/quote]

Indeed sir. Although as noted above somewhere it could be notated as such by a publisher if they chose to score it as per the C major parent scale, which does happen.

Aren't we being nice..unlike another similar thread which has degenerated into a very bizarre affair.