Singer's comments about my bass tone...

[uncle psychosis]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1385554192' post='2289530']
Interestesingly my current guitarist's long time guitar hero is Nile, and he does [i]that[/i] feel particularly well. He's never been too bothered by playing lead, and has spent years really getting into rhythm guitar. It certainly shows!
[/quote]

Nile can do a mean solo too, when the mood takes him. When I saw him during the summer it was just him and a guitar and he did a couple of fairly extended solos. He's insanely talented.

[dlloyd]

[quote name='AntLockyer' timestamp='1385470116' post='2288567']
Isn't that what she thought the issue was really though? Try one time really hard and another time just not trying to do anything other than relax and groove.
[/quote]

It sounded like she knew there was an issue (lack of groove), could tell it was something to do with the bass but was unable to figure out what the exact nature of the issue was.

I bet concentration isn't even part of the problem. "Groove" is a difficult thing for people to understand... it's obvious when it's there and it's obvious when it's not.

[Dingus]

[quote name='Damonjames' timestamp='1385504129' post='2289164']
I'm not disputing the tonal variety or quality of the instrument in question , all I was trying to suggest is a slight tweak of the onboard eq may remove some of the "clean" sound the singer is referring to. That's the trouble with songs where an instrument is really prominent in te mix like bass in most chic tracks. People know how it sounds on the record and use that as a benchmark. I'd fancy there is NOTHING wrong with the OP's playing at all, he/she sounds far too aware of what they are trying to do to be too far off the mark. The likely culprit is the guitarist not being in time with the rythm section.
I hope the rehearsal/gig goes well!
[/quote]

My comments are not at all directed at you , my friend , more so at this singer and her expert knowledge of reverb ( ahem) .

I just wanted to make the point that , whatever the problem may or may not be, that is a great sounding bass that will do just about any job for you tone wise , including paying tribute to the late, great Bernie Edwards, in fact [i]especially [/i]paying tribute to Bernard.

[Damonjames]

No offence taking Mr Digus (did you notice the 😀) I was just suggesting that like any bass, it is capable off my different sounds, a small tweak here or there may of got our dear friend off the hook with the singer. I am in a Seattle tribute band, and I am changing my tone and vols pots, hand position and right hand finger technique constantly to try and nail the sound of the original.

But seriously, how good is Bern??

Come on OP, how was the gig?

[solo4652]

[quote name='Damonjames' timestamp='1385564890' post='2289704']
No offence taking Mr Digus (did you notice the ��) I was just suggesting that like any bass, it is capable off my different sounds, a small tweak here or there may of got our dear friend off the hook with the singer. I am in a Seattle tribute band, and I am changing my tone and vols pots, hand position and right hand finger technique constantly to try and nail the sound of the original.

But seriously, how good is Bern??

Come on OP, how was the gig?
[/quote]

We're rehearsing tonight (27th) and the gig's tomorrow night. We're at the Metro Bar in Manchester Victoria, 6-30 to 7-30 if anybody wants to come and say hello. I'll be the stressed-looking guy at the back.

[Dingus]

[quote name='Damonjames' timestamp='1385564890' post='2289704']
No offence taking Mr Digus (did you notice the ) I was just suggesting that like any bass, it is capable off my different sounds, a small tweak here or there may of got our dear friend off the hook with the singer. I am in a Seattle tribute band, and I am changing my tone and vols pots, hand position and right hand finger technique constantly to try and nail the sound of the original.

But seriously, how good is Bern??

Come on OP, how was the gig?
[/quote]

Your Emoticons are broken , mate! They aren't coming out on your posts.

And yes, Bernard is still the man. What a stylish player.

I like the sound of that Seattle tribute band , by the way. I've never heard of another tribute act on that theme, and thinking about it, I can see how it could be really popular. Why didn't I think of that?

[Damonjames]

Hi solo, I would love to come and check you guys out tomorrow, but between band stuff and the rugby league World Cup games I've been to, I've left Mrs DJ with the little dj's and the poor lady is going to snap! Drop me a pm next time you are playing and ill see what I can do, good luck and let us know how you get on!

Dingus, thanks for the heads up on the emoticons, ill make sure I don't use them for context, sorry for any confusion!

[Damonjames]

Oh, and the Seattle thing will be great if we can get it off the ground, we just spent 3 months in the practice room so the singer to leave us the day after we took our first booking, and took the guitard with him.
Just about to audition some new guys tonight so fingers crossed we will be out and about in the new year.

[LukeFRC]

So a few days after reading this first I've come back to this thread....

something kinda bothered me -

the singer is trying to communicate something - obviously doesn't have the technically knowledge to articulate what she means (and to be fair it's in one email not face to face convo)

But the thread just ends up mocking her - in this weird kinda defensive leave the bass player alone, I know best type thing....
which is a bit rude to her, and... well I don't think that's how the best bands work...

I play with folk and for instance can come up with different drum ideas, things that will make the song better, or maybe make more space for something the keys or guitar is doing. Right ask me to communicate that, how rhythm works or a kit works... I couldn't do that and would sound like an idiot.
- but I would kinda like to be listened too, and have the drummer translate my random beat box/dance into drummer speak. I would listen to band members making suggestions about bass too regardless of their ability to communicate those ideas.

That communication and sharing ideas is, to my mind, the difference between a great band and a bunch of guys making music in a room together.


So to the OP - you're probably a better bass player than you think you are, loosen up a bit. But listen to the rest of your band - are you clicking in with first the drums and second the guitars. Unless you are the chill pepers or someone you probably need to talk, in a calm and normal way about how you can improve that, maybe different stage positions would help you hear/see the drummer better, maybe you guitarist needs to bring his stage volume down a bit, maybe you need to tighten up your timing - I dunno - talk about it - improve as a unit.
Your individual playing is probably great- but is your sound for the band? you know what sounds good to you might not work in the mix, that the eq setting on your bass would be the first thing I would look at... change things and see what your band members prefer - you know what sounds best to you on your instrument might not sound great as a whole band - compromise a bit. Cutting the bass on the electric guitar amp might help you.... and so on.
Your singer has a set of ears on her - she can help you.

[JTUK]

hmmmm I would say it isn't obvious when the groove isn't there as people tend to carry on regardless...
There isn't anyone who can tell you about the groove if they haven't got it themselves.

Sounds more political than musical to me...

[solo4652]

Quick update following rehearsal last night. Thanks to the suggestions here, I tried a number of different things. First, I beefed up the bass and pulled the mids back on the amp. Next, I simplified quite a few of the basslines I'd been playing. I'd been trying to play things absolutely correctly and probably had slightly lost the overall band-plot. Then, I paid much more attention to the drummer and less to the guitarist (who I struggle to sync. with) and finally, we reviewed all the songs and decided some needed more work before gigging them - specifically We are family, Get Ready and Heard it through the grapevine. As a band, we took some big steps forward last night and tonight's gig is now looking significantly less daunting.

[Damonjames]

Great stuff, good luck! Let us know how you go!

[steve-bbb]

[quote name='solo4652' timestamp='1385631072' post='2290354']
Then, I paid much more attention to the drummer and less to the guitarist...
[/quote]

definitely this

unless the guitarist is doing something rhythmically tight i tend to ignore the guitar and just focus on the drums and then the keys in our band - the guitar can be sort of left to its own devices to a degree because as long as drums and bass are locked together it gives the guitarist room for a bit more fluidity

im always telling our singist (much to her amusement) that i havent got a clue what she is doing - its not so much wilfully ignoring her but my ear seems to zone out the vox when i focus on the drums and the structure

good luck with the gig tonight

Edited November 29, 2013 by steve-bbb

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='steve-bbb' timestamp='1385716898' post='2291377']
definitely this

unless the guitarist is doing something rhythmically tight i tend to ignore the guitar and just focus on the drums and then the keys in our band - the guitar can be sort of left to its own devices to a degree because as long as drums and bass are locked together it gives the guitarist room for a bit more fluidity

im always telling our singist (much to her amusement) that i havent got a clue what she is doing - its not so much wilfully ignoring her but my ear seems to zone out the vox when i focus on the drums and the structure

good luck with the gig tonight
[/quote]

Yeah good luck.

This is getting interesting, I've always seen it as my job to knit the band together. I learned to play with a drum machine when I started so timekeeping wasn't an issue but I was shocked when i joined a band to find most singers and guitarists can't play to a drum machine or indeed any steady beat! I try to control the tightness of our songs by defining the first note of a chord change and if i hear someone drifting or making a mistake I'll try to emphasize those notes a little to draw everyone back in, Actually once a song is secure you can pretty much relax and concentrate on performance but I always try to listen to everyone, I always thought this was my job. In practice I mainly concentrate on the singer and the drums. My pet hate is singers who think phrasing is singing out of time.

Obviously there is more than one way to be a bassist, so do i have it wrong?

Edited November 29, 2013 by Phil Starr

[Damonjames]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1385720813' post='2291433']


Yeah good luck.

This is getting interesting, I've always seen it as my job to knit the band together. I learned to play with a drum machine when I started so timekeeping wasn't an issue but I was shocked when i joined a band to find most singers and guitarists can't play to a drum machine or indeed any steady beat! I try to control the tightness of our songs by defining the first note of a chord change and if i hear someone drifting or making a mistake I'll try to emphasize those notes a little to draw everyone back in, Actually once a song is secure you can pretty much relax and concentrate on performance but I always try to listen to everyone, I always thought this was my job. In practice I mainly concentrate on the singer and the drums. My pet hate is singers who think phrasing is singing out of time.

Obviously there is more than one way to be a bassist, so do i have it wrong?
[/quote]

I think you have it 100% on the money. If you understand the role of the instrument in a band context, it's difficult to NOT do this.
We auditioned a new singer this week, and to be honest, I can't really tell you how he sounds. I also tend to drown out the vox and focus on the drums, I shifted my focus to listen a few times through the practice to check his singing out, but the fact that he didn't sound wrong for the rest if it suggests he is probably doing it right!

[solo4652]

[quote name='steve-bbb' timestamp='1385716898' post='2291377']
definitely this

unless the guitarist is doing something rhythmically tight i tend to ignore the guitar and just focus on the drums and then the keys in our band - the guitar can be sort of left to its own devices to a degree because as long as drums and bass are locked together it gives the guitarist room for a bit more fluidity

im always telling our singist (much to her amusement) that i havent got a clue what she is doing - its not so much wilfully ignoring her but my ear seems to zone out the vox when i focus on the drums and the structure

good luck with the gig tonight
[/quote]

Well, I think we did a pretty decent job in the end. I focussed on the drummer and not the guitarist or singer. My intention to beef up the bass tone lasted until the soundcheck when, due to the room acoustics, it was soon apparent that I'd overdone it. I ended up pretty much back with the sound I'd started with. We got applause for every song and the venue asked us back, so we must have sounded reasonably OK. Lessons for me; focus on the drums, don't over-play the bassline, listen to singer's comments about the groove, try not to be put off when guitarist messes up.

Thanks to everybody here for their help and encouragement,

Steve

[discreet]

[quote name='solo4652' timestamp='1385726490' post='2291535']
...focus on the drums, don't over-play the bassline.
[/quote]

That's it right there. Less is more.

Edited November 29, 2013 by discreet

[Damonjames]

Great stuff Steve! I hope the singer liked it as much as the punters/venue did!
You showed some real diplomacy dealing with this situation, some of us (myself included) may not have taken the comments quite so well, so it is a lesson learned for me too!

Don't focus on "not overplaying the bass lines", just know your limits. Let us know when your next gig is on and ill see if I can get out!

[Myke]

Nice Getting asked back is always the best compliment

[TimR]

[quote name='solo4652' timestamp='1385726490' post='2291535']


...
Lessons for me; focus on the drums, don't over-play the bassline, listen to singer's comments about the groove, try not to be put off when guitarist messes up.

Thanks to everybody here for their help and encouragement,

Steve
[/quote]

Steve, I played We Are Family for years with a drummer who was a rock drummer first and foremost. He couldn't funk his way out of a paper bag. It knocked my confidence a lot. His bass drum trod over the baseline and made the song unplayable in its original form.

His random 4.5 beat fills were also a problem

He wouldn't budge or improve, I had to rock it up and simplify the bassline to the point that it was very different to the original. The rest of the band said I wasn't playing it right. I tried to explain...

Concentrating on the drums shouldn't be necessary, it should be natural to feel, I left the band on the end and played with proper drummers.

[JTUK]

Then you should have binned the song as your band ( collectively ) couldn't play it...or if that type of music was more important, you should have binned the drummer... or whoever else was holding things back IMO.

The thing to get right at the rehearsal is the decision on whether the tracks works within the context of the band..

[TimR]

Like most things in life, it's always more complex than that...

Would have ended up binning everything in the set that wasn't rock, which was probably what the band leader (drummer) wanted anyway.

He would have struggled getting big paying wedding gigs, which were what he wanted to do.

I gave up... You can lead a horse to water.

Edited November 30, 2013 by TimR

[Lowender]

Everybody is being too literal. She may not know how to describe what she wants, but she knows there's something she doesn't like. That can't be ignored. It's like when musicians say "the audience doesn't know what's good." Oh yes they do. They just may not be able to articulate it.

Perhaps, "too clean" means too bright or too thin or too punchy or nat fat enough. Who knows. But don't discount it. Listen and learn.

[TimR]

He spoke to her. She means too precise. He's not feeling the music.

[Lowender]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1385833907' post='2292696']
He spoke to her. She means too precise. He's not feeling the music.
[/quote]

Hmmm, I think you have to read between the lines with that as well. Does she mean too stiff? Or maybe she just doesn't like him.