Buffered tuners or true bypass?

[1976fenderhead]

Following the launch of the new true bypass Korg Pitchblack tuner, I've read a few articles online defending that a tuner that is not true bypass may actually be a good thing as it acts as a buffer (like the TU-2 and DT-10) and so true bypass may do more bad than good...

So I'd like to know:
- I have a TU-2 as my 1st pedal. Since it acts as a buffer, is it actually doing something good for my tone that I would be worse off if I took it out and inserted a true-bypass tuner or nothing at all there? (I know I can test this myself but not at studio/gig volumes at the moment and would like to know how it should be in theory anyway)...
- Should a buffered tuner like the TU-2 be at the start or end of the pedal chain?
- What's the usefulness of a buffered tuner for a bassist as opposed to a true bypass tuner?


I play with a MIA Fender Jazz Deluxe which is active but seems to have a higher impedance than most active basses. I understand an active bass means it already has its own buffer, so does this mean the use I might have for an external (tuner) buffer is already covered?

My signal chain is as follows:

TU-2
Aphex Punch Factory (true bypass)
Cry Baby 105q
Zoom Ultra Fuzz
MXR Stereo Chorus (true bypass)
Rocktron Hypnotic Flange
Ernie Ball Jr volume pedal

Edited June 26, 2008 by 1976fenderhead

[BOD2]

Not quite the complete answer you're looking for, but I would always put a tuner at the front of the chain because if it's further down the chain and you try to tune in a hurry you might not notice that one or more of your other pedals has been left on. Trying to tune whilst a deep chorus or an a fuzz effect is on might not be easy.

At the front of the chain it's just the pure bass signal going into it no matter what happens with the rest of the FX.

[cheddatom]

A buffer can compensate for any "tone sucking" that arises from feeding your signal through lots of pedals and consequently pedal connectors and patch leads etc. It can also compensate for any signal degredation caused by using long leads. I'm not sure if it matters where abouts in the chain it should go. I doubt you will notice a difference either way, unless any of your true bypass pedals are effect by impedance.

[dangerboy]

I have my TU-2 at the end of the chain, so I don't need to worry about all the true-bypass fuzzes in front of it.

It's also useful because it can kill a 'wall-of-noise' distortion dead at the end of a gig.

[Higgie]

Put the tuner at the end of your chain. If you're running a load of true bypass pedals, the buffer at the end will send a nice signal to the amp. Being able to mute everything at the touch of a switch as dangerboy said, is another advantage of doing this.

If you need to tune, just turn off everything before hand. That's what I like about things like a Master Bypass on a true bypass strip - it'll turn off whatever loops are on, then you click the switch again, and everything that was off now comes back on - making tuning quickly a breeze.

[Oscar South]

I run Active Bass--->True Bypass Tuner--->Always on Compressor (which is also true bypass if I want to turn it off)--->Always on preamp/EQ (non true bypass but its never off anyway)--->everything afterwards is true bypass (just 1 or 2 pedals usually) and get quite a nice sound, not really experimented much though.

[timmyo]

[quote name='Higgie' post='227852' date='Jun 27 2008, 10:03 AM']Put the tuner at the end of your chain. If you're running a load of true bypass pedals, the buffer at the end will send a nice signal to the amp.[/quote]

Apologies for thread resurrection but : I don't agree with that.

If you have pedals that do adversely affect your tone, you'd have been far better off feeding them a buffered signal so that they don't (otherwise you just buffer the mangled tone).

Active pickups obviously makes all this moot.

I've spent (ok, wasted!) a fair bit of time on this in the past re guitar fx and concluded that:

a. Buffer first is the best bet
b. Even without it 'tone suck' is actually hard to hear with normal, modern, decently designed pedals (yes I sat there switching various combinations of pedals in and out of a TB loop to check this saddo )

[cheddatom]

If a pedal adversley affects your tone when it's bypassed, it's more than likely to do with it's sh*t design, and not a lot to do with the input signal. So, yeh, you can feed it a buffered signal, but then if the pedal destroys the input signal anyway, out will come a sh*t signal, and you'll need another buffer to get the signal up to the level required for the amp.

Or am I talking balls?

[timmyo]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='284362' date='Sep 15 2008, 04:53 PM']Or am I talking balls?[/quote]



A buffered signal is inherrently far more resistant to the adverse affect of long cable runs or the sh*tty cable that people often use in patch leads (mostly a prob when you have lots of TB pedals) or the top-end loss you get with a pedal with really bad buffer circuit (or odd input or output impedance). A buffered signal will be less (if at all) affected by these things - so better to buffer up front (or us ea unity gain buffer/line driver or active pickups if that's your bag) than to be affected then buffer the adversely affected signal back up to the correct overall level (but with top end missing, for example)

[cheddatom]

[quote name='timmyo' post='284381' date='Sep 15 2008, 05:25 PM']

A buffered signal is inherrently far more resistant to the adverse affect of long cable runs or the sh*tty cable that people often use in patch leads (mostly a prob when you have lots of TB pedals) or the top-end loss you get with a pedal with really bad buffer circuit (or odd input or output impedance). A buffered signal will be less (if at all) affected by these things - so better to buffer up front (or us ea unity gain buffer/line driver or active pickups if that's your bag) than to be affected then buffer the adversely affected signal back up to the correct overall level (but with top end missing, for example)[/quote]

I don't understand why a pedal that has a sh*tty bypass would affect a buffered tone less than an unbuffered tone? I don't think the problems arising from the poor pedal would be solved by feeding it a stronger signal?

I.E I have a couple of pedals that "suck my tone" when bypassed. They do it if i'm using a passive bass, or if i'm using an active bass (buffered or non). If I send the signal after the crap pedal to my amp using a 30m cable, then it sounds a bit dodgy, if I put a buffered bypassed pedal after the crap pedal, then a 30m lead, it sounds fine but still with the crap bypass from the crap pedal.

EDIT: If I am completely misunderstanding what a buffer does please explain!

Edited September 16, 2008 by cheddatom

[timmyo]

Passive pickups have a high output impedance (hence instrument inputs on mixers and desks are usually labelled "Hi-Z" or similar).

Some effects pedals are not very well designed and their effective input impedance can be sufficiently low as to cause the circuit to load the pickups enough to affect the frequency response we get out of the pickups (usually heard as a top end rolloff - sometimes imperceptible, sometimes not - depends on the combination of pedal and instrument). It's not just a case of whacking the signal up at some point in the line - it's about impedance matching so as not to load the pickups.

So sh**ty bypass isn't usually something that has some rubbish component in the signal path introducing noise or anything like that, it's more often a poorly (or at least not quite well enough) designed output buffer circuit, or a cheaply implemented output buffer circuit (often the culprit - if they save 1p on components in a million pedals...). (Most mass produced pedals use output buffer circuits - it means that the rest of the circuit doesn't have to worry about unity gain - it gets sorted at the output. Most boutique builders don't use output buffers as it's more components and less profitable and harder to do in short runs/hand building, so they use simpler circuits and then wax lyrical about the "benefits" of true bypass becasue it's their only realistic choice )

Years ago I could have gone in to more detail - but it's a while since that part of my brain got used

[cheddatom]

So it's the fact that the first pedal in your chain will interact with passive pups, and putting a pedal with an output buffer first in the chain means it won't interact?

I think I need to do some reading up before I can understand this.

[timmyo]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='284792' date='Sep 16 2008, 09:54 AM']So it's the fact that the first pedal in your chain will interact with passive pups, and putting a pedal with an output buffer first in the chain means it won't interact?

I think I need to do some reading up before I can understand this.[/quote]

That first pedal will still potentially interact with the pickups (as the buffering doesn't occur until its own output stage) but if it's a decent pedal (and bear in mind all this is only relevant for 'naughty' pedals) then that won't be a problem. I used to have LOTS of pedals and for sake of ease I left them all set up all the time. I once removed my Korg DT-10 tuner from the front of the queue to the end and noticed a significant difference. I didn't faff about trying to identify the problem pedal(s) - I just stuck the DT-10 back at the front and all was well again.

The absolutely theoretical best way to do this is use a dedicated line driver/unity gain buffer first in the chain. I actually got a mate to make me a little 1" square PCB laid out for a unity gain circuit. I even have the components and box ready to solder it up. I've just been to idle to do it That way you can worry less about your old pedals and less than top of the range patch cables as you have a nice buffered, low output-Z signal to play with.

But again, for many people it's never an issue - the pedals they have behave fine and/or any effect is so minimal as to not be noticed. I recently seriously cut mack my guitar effects board and did an experiment the other day switching stuff in and out of a true bypass loop - I couldn't hear any difference any more, so all is now well.

I don't doubt that you hear issues on your board - but it may well be not due to buffering/impedance mismatching - there may be something else at work.

Apologies if any of this sounds preachy - I just find it interesting

Edited September 16, 2008 by timmyo

[cheddatom]

Heh, I find it interesting too!

I deffinitely do hear differences on my board, being that there are 20 odd crap buffered pedals on there.

So you are best to have one decent buffer at the start of your chain, and one at the end then?

[timmyo]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='284822' date='Sep 16 2008, 10:40 AM']Heh, I find it interesting too!

I deffinitely do hear differences on my board, being that there are 20 odd crap buffered pedals on there.

So you are best to have one decent buffer at the start of your chain, and one at the end then?[/quote]

I've never needed one at the end - but if it sounds better . . .

In your shoes I'd spend some time trying to identify where the problem pedal was (it's probably just one or 2 of the buggers) , and either see if there are commonly known mods that improve it, or just switch it for an alternative. I've got a neat little dual true bypass loop, so I put half n one loop, half in the other and switched them in and out (all pedals 'off') to quickly narrow down where I had any issues. Although I only did this after I'd thinned the collection down and discovered that none of what I was left with had issues

[cheddatom]

Don't worry about my shoes! I don't have any gigs on bass for the forseable future

I was on about at the end of the chain, because I read that a long cable can degrade your tone as much as a non TB poor buffered pedal, I tend to have a cable at least 20m at the end of my chain so...

[johnnylager]

I've just been experimenting with pedal order. I was going TU-2 > BassBalls > Hyperdrive > MultiComp > MicroBass II. I've now taken the TU-2 out of the chain and run it off the link on the MicroBass and it's really opened up the sound of the BassBalls and the Hyperdrive. Just saying, like.