Struggling to get clean

[Iheartreverb]

Hi all,

I can probably be accused of under powering my amp. I play at home with the gain less than half of the volume and love a super clean rounded tone. Usually mid 3 o'clock treble 12 o'clock, bass around 1 o'clock.

I play a Ric copy with is fairly low output in the middle position, so I don't think that helps.

Anyway, when I practice I use the amps at the practice rooms which is 300/350/450/600 watt heads of varying brands always either Ashdown, Ampeg or EBS and always into ampeg 810's.

When trying to dail in my tone I just can't hear myself over two guitarists playing into Marshall 900's. I find myself needing to drive the amp and use my neck pickup just to cut through and hear myself (and be heard).

I am aware of how to power you amp and the advice to run upto the peak point but for me this is too distorted.

In simpep terms my one is less of a bumm and more of a burrrr

Any advice on how to help my tone? I'm well aware of the problem could be me (my bass) and not the amp. I'm open to changing pots, pickups, using boost, pre amp as well as the issues of the Amp.

Thanks is advance

[discreet]

[quote name='Iheartreverb' timestamp='1385502528' post='2289132']
I just can't hear myself over two guitarists playing into Marshall 900's.
[/quote]

There's your problem right there.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1385502976' post='2289142']
There's your problem right there.
[/quote]+1, an 810 can't compete with two 412s. Haul in three more 810s and tell them that's your new rig, unless they get sensible 112 combos.

[LawrenceH]

412s can get very loud, but it's not just a volume thing. The Marshall sound is dense and can cover everything from around 100Hz right up to 4kHz, ie all over the bass guitar. You need to find the tonal gaps in there (if there are any) and boost those, or (better) get them to cut a hole somewhere for your bass. Often guitarists boost the bass/low-mids too much to get that thick chunky sound, great on its own but wipes out the bass in the mix, and it sounds better overall if they get a tone that's a little thin on it's own.

When I do sound, Marshall-type driven guitar tone gives me the biggest difficulties with the mix 9 times out of 10. Especially if there are two of them, and especially especially if the guitarist comes with ego attached, which with Marshalls they usually seem to :/

Also, those Marshall overdrives give a very compressed tone. You may want to compress the bass to match, or you'll find the note decays too fast in comparison.

[spacey]

I would say have a look at the TC bg500 210, I have never heard an amp as loud , they will hear that, I guarentee it.

[0175westwood29]

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1385504357' post='2289175']
412s can get very loud, but it's not just a volume thing. The Marshall sound is dense and can cover everything from around 100Hz right up to 4kHz, ie all over the bass guitar. You need to find the tonal gaps in there (if there are any) and boost those, or (better) get them to cut a hole somewhere for your bass. Often guitarists boost the bass/low-mids too much to get that thick chunky sound, great on its own but wipes out the bass in the mix, and it sounds better overall if they get a tone that's a little thin on it's own.

When I do sound, Marshall-type driven guitar tone gives me the biggest difficulties with the mix 9 times out of 10. Especially if there are two of them, and especially especially if the guitarist comes with ego attached, which with Marshalls they usually seem to :/

Also, those Marshall overdrives give a very compressed tone. You may want to compress the bass to match, or you'll find the note decays too fast in comparison.
[/quote]

thats solid advice, guitarists dnt normally like to eq, if they can t hear themselves they turn up, but my band had a practice session where we spent time on the guitar sounds so we have a treble heavy gritty guitar a mid heavy rounded guitar and my bass which kinda glues those two sounds together. took a bit of time to sort it but sounds a lot better.

also and i found this out in the studio, a sound you think sounds awesome alone wont sound anywhere near as good in a band mix.

also is there anyway of taking your amp each time? then you have a constant bass sound as ebs to ampeg although both awesome wnt sound the same .

andy

[Iheartreverb]

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1385504357' post='2289175']
412s can get very loud, but it's not just a volume thing. The Marshall sound is dense and can cover everything from around 100Hz right up to 4kHz, ie all over the bass guitar. You need to find the tonal gaps in there (if there are any) and boost those, or (better) get them to cut a hole somewhere for your bass. Often guitarists boost the bass/low-mids too much to get that thick chunky sound, great on its own but wipes out the bass in the mix, and it sounds better overall if they get a tone that's a little thin on it's own.

When I do sound, Marshall-type driven guitar tone gives me the biggest difficulties with the mix 9 times out of 10. Especially if there are two of them, and especially especially if the guitarist comes with ego attached, which with Marshalls they usually seem to :/

Also, those Marshall overdrives give a very compressed tone. You may want to compress the bass to match, or you'll find the note decays too fast in comparison.
[/quote]

I'm already using a compressor quite high, this focuses my otherwise very low output.
With that you said about finding a place (tone/frequency) to be heard, that's what I've done. Neck pickup, gain. But this isn't the overall tone I want, as described

[Japhet]

As with the advice above, it sounds like the guitars are hogging your frequencies. They need to EQ.

[Lozz196]

412s do that, especially with Marshalls as very well explained by LawrenceH. For me, the best Marshall sound is the amp on the clean channel, and getting the drive by pushing the amp - only downside is they then become very loud, so a powerbrake or something is needed. But you then get that "feel" loud without swamping everything sound - like AC/DC for example.

When the guitarists aren`t looking - or if they reasonable types and would be happy to try this - knock down the bass, gain and reverb on their amps by 1 on each control.

[xgsjx]

Every time we go to rehearsals, the first thing I do is turn the bass down on the 2 (in house) guitar amps. It's got that way that one of the guitarists now does it if I don't.
Get your guitarists to turn down a bit too (good luck with that, they'll probably turn down & then 1st chorus, back up).

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='Iheartreverb' timestamp='1385505508' post='2289200']
I'm already using a compressor quite high, this focuses my otherwise very low output.
With that you said about finding a place (tone/frequency) to be heard, that's what I've done. Neck pickup, gain. But this isn't the overall tone I want, as described
[/quote]

It really does sound like a mix issue with the guitars sitting in your space in which case it's not you, it's them - but possibly also a preference for quite a mid-scooped sound from the Ric if the middle position corresponds to two pickups blended (I'm not familiar with Ric settings)?

Mid-scooped basses are another challenge to fit into a mix because the mid-range is where most of the character of the sound is. The neck pickup alone, especially into a typical Ampeg-style 810, gives you a lot of upper-bass/low mids, this region typically gets wiped out when you blend pickups with upper-mids/treble becoming more prominent instead. I notice you're boosting your mids a bit already, what is your amp? It may be the frequency centre is not very suitable, or if it's a Fender-style tonestack then you will still effectively be cutting mids with this setting.

Regarding the compression, do you have much control over attack/release settings, and can you change where it sits in the signal chain? With enough control a good compressor can be something of a magic wand. I'd suggest experimenting with a far more hyped, aggressive version of the sound you like in isolation, exaggerating any clanky upper mids and making sure the compressor is keeping their level up for longer - it's amazing how in context something like this will sound 'smooth and rounded', whereas what really sounds 'smooth and rounded' listening in isolation just gets totally buried.

[Prime_BASS]

It sounds to me people are exercising double standards.
Yes the guitars need to EQ, but a very valid point is that what sounds good alone may not be right for the mix.

This is probably exactly what is happening here.
You like sound A at home etc, but at rehearsals you can't hear it.
So go for sound B, which you don't like.

Sound B seems to be the sound right for the band.

[Conan]

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1385514295' post='2289294']
The neck pickup alone, especially into a typical Ampeg-style 810, gives you a lot of upper-bass/low mids, [/quote]

Yes. Low-mids may be great for "thump", but they are hard to hear in a dense mix. I much prefer "mid-mids" (if you know what I mean!). They can sound shouty and harsh in isolation, but are very audible in most band mixes IME.

But whatever sounds you are using, too much volume can only be a bad thing

[bassmachine2112]

Hiho,I find a Rick cuts through like no other bass,the 4003 has plenty output from the pick ups.
Marshalls that are to big I,m afraid.A Vox ac30 is blistering loud but a Marshall 100watt with a 4x12 is jet plane loud.
Going to be hard to get them to turn down.
Guitarists in the know use 50 watt or less versions so they can get the sound without destroying buildings even so they are loud as well.
Ever played with a guitarist who has a Vox ac15 ?,great sound but very loud and it,s only 15 watt.I know wattage is subjective but you get the drift.
If it was possible -turn up with 3 8x10 cabs and 3 Orange terror bass 1000 watt heads that,ll sort that out-oh don,t forget the ear plugs and tenna lights,you don,t want an oops moment.
Volume wars are the bane of many a band.

[Phil Starr]

Good advice from everyone, your problem is very simple though.

You are in a volume war and you need to end it by talking to each other.

The tone you carefully set up at home won't work in a band situation or in a different room acoustic, for you or the guitarists.

Talk to each other.

Good luck.

[Iheartreverb]

[quote name='0175westwood29' timestamp='1385505268' post='2289196']
...also is there anyway of taking your amp each time? then you have a constant bass sound as ebs to ampeg although both awesome wnt sound the same ....[/quote]

My amp is a small Ashdown 30 watt.Fine in my spare room but no hope in a band situation. Thats why I use the amps in the rooms. Its worth mentioning that the silly loud Marshall's aren't ours either. One guitarist uses a Fender twin, the other a Selmer head.

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1385514295' post='2289294']
It really does sound like a mix issue with the guitars sitting in your space in which case it's not you, it's them - but possibly also a preference for quite a mid-scooped sound from the Ric if the middle position corresponds to two pickups blended (I'm not familiar with Ric settings)?
........Regarding the compression, do you have much control over attack/release settings, and can you change where it sits in the signal chain? [/quote]

My compressor is a Boss CS3 so I can change it all I want. I usually have it Lev 1 o'clock, tone 1 o'clock, attach 3 o'clock, sustain 11 o'clock.

Yes the middle position is both pickups together although I dont blend them and just have all pots on full. It's true that it sounds very guitar like at this point but this tone through a clean mid heavy amp is exactly how I want it to sound....just louder.

[quote name='Prime_BASS' timestamp='1385538165' post='2289343']
It sounds to me people are exercising double standards.
Yes the guitars need to EQ, but a very valid point is that what sounds good alone may not be right for the mix.

This is probably exactly what is happening here.
You like sound A at home etc, but at rehearsals you can't hear it.
So go for sound B, which you don't like.

Sound B seems to be the sound right for the band.[/quote]

Surely the only way for me to be heard isn't to play with the exact opposite to the sound I want? You wouldn't say this to a jazz or soul band..."yeah just grind the hell out of the amp". Plenty of bands I like achieve this balance and live this shouldn't be a issue as everything will go through a sound desk and pa so the mix will be there. Its just getting a practice tone right.

Is there anything else that could help such as a clean boost in my chain that will increase my input before power amp?

[quote name='bassmachine2112' timestamp='1385541554' post='2289374']
Hiho,I find a Rick cuts through like no other bass,the 4003 has plenty output from the pick ups.
Marshalls that are to big I,m afraid.A Vox ac30 is blistering loud but a Marshall 100watt with a 4x12 is jet plane loud.
Going to be hard to get them to turn down.
Guitarists in the know use 50 watt or less versions so they can get the sound without destroying buildings even so they are loud as well.
Ever played with a guitarist who has a Vox ac15 ?,great sound but very loud and it,s only 15 watt.I know wattage is subjective but you get the drift.
If it was possible -turn up with 3 8x10 cabs and 3 Orange terror bass 1000 watt heads that,ll sort that out-oh don,t forget the ear plugs and tenna lights,you don,t want an oops moment.
Volume wars are the bane of many a band.[/quote]

Its only a copy and the pickups are loud enough on their own but I get a noticeable difference in output in the middle pos. Its worth mentioning that the silly loud Marshall's aren't ours either. One guitarist uses a Fender twin, the other a Selmer head.

[brensabre79]

I'll add to what is said above. Whenever I use my R bass at gigs I usually end up mainly on the neck pickup. the LF is way more than I get from an F bass, but there are no low mids. Thing is, I can get the R a lot louder without interfering with the guitards. Whenever I use the F bass, the low mids are more prominenet and the guitards say I'm too loud, even if I'm quieter. It's all down to not stepping on each other's frequencies.

If I don't touch my amp and try it at home after a gig, the tone I end up with from the R bass is horrid on its own, really there's a lot of mid in there that I don't hear at the gig - and I mean real mid, not low mid. It sounds almost nasal. In the mix though it sounds great.

[spacey]

Have you tried another bass ?
The copy may have poor pick ups, they are built to emulate looks rather than working basses.
The real Ricks do have a very odd quirk almost unique to them in that the bass does not roll off when you turn the tone pots up, it stays on unlike most basses and this can overwhelm amps.
I find precisions cut much sharper as they have a fuller sound, almost the perfect output signal in that it is not scooped Like the Rick and the bass roll off with the tone up makes them cut through far better.

[Iheartreverb]

[quote name='spacey' timestamp='1385547608' post='2289446']
Have you tried another bass ?
The copy may have poor pick ups, they are built to emulate looks rather than working basses.
The real Ricks do have a very odd quirk almost unique to them in that the bass does not roll off when you turn the tone pots up, it stays on unlike most basses and this can overwhelm amps.
I find precisions cut much sharper as they have a fuller sound, almost the perfect output signal in that it is not scooped Like the Rick and the bass roll off with the tone up makes them cut through far better.
[/quote]

this is my old bass at the minute. I see your point though, when i had a precision and plugged it in my amp on the settings I had my Ric copy on I could barely keep the walls on my flat. soooo much more output and low end!

With regards to the pickups I just loose volume and low end in the middle pos. Looking at Ric pickups to put in it at £220 a set!!!!

[StephenYork]

[quote name='Iheartreverb' timestamp='1385543610' post='2289398']

Is there anything else that could help such as a clean boost in my chain that will increase my input before power amp?

[/quote]

This is not a bad idea as a cheap fix. You could put a booster pedal in the effects loop and that would increase the volume into the power amp section. A cheap one for this job could be the Joyo Booster, LPB-1 or a TC Spark Mini.

But if you are having trouble hearing yourself maybe look into changing how the practice room is set up. If you are facing each other across the room you are going to get blasted by guitar, maybe set up in a gig-like setting and see how it sounds then.

[brensabre79]

[quote name='Iheartreverb' timestamp='1385548169' post='2289457']
this is my old bass at the minute. I see your point though, when i had a precision and plugged it in my amp on the settings I had my Ric copy on I could barely keep the walls on my flat. soooo much more output and low end!

With regards to the pickups I just loose volume and low end in the middle pos. Looking at Ric pickups to put in it at £220 a set!!!!
[/quote]

You can probably get quite a boost from your compressor pedal as a quick fix.
You could try [url="http://geminipickups.co.uk/"]Gemini pickups[/url], they do a nice Ric set for £130. Or there's [url="http://www.kentarmstrong.com/"]Kent Armstrong[/url] - Neck pickup is lovely, even though it's for guitar (like the early Ric's had) I think it might be a special order though, or in the guitar section..

the mid position will always scoop the sound - not just on Rics or copies because the frequencies picked up by the two pickups interact and cancel out in the mid-range. The further apart the pickups are on the bass the more scooped the sound can be.

Edited November 27, 2013 by brensabre79

[Iheartreverb]

[quote name='brensabre79' timestamp='1385552364' post='2289520']
You could try [url="http://geminipickups.co.uk/"]Gemini pickups[/url], t
[/quote]

sh*t, How big are those poles!
once you factor in cost on top for correct bridge mount and cover they're only about £15 cheaper than actual Ric's.

But honestly, thanks for showing me these and your advice. If these sound better I'd go for them anyway.

[Conan]

[quote name='Iheartreverb' timestamp='1385543610' post='2289398']
Its worth mentioning that the silly loud Marshall's aren't ours either. One guitarist uses a Fender twin, the other a Selmer head.
[/quote]

Using unfamiliar gear is always likely to cause sound problems. Is there a good reason why the guitarists can't bring their own?

That said, one of the guitarists in my band uses a Fender Twin, and they can be [i]seriously[/i] loud - especially if you stand right in the throw of the speakers (which is quite narrow and directional).

[Iheartreverb]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1385556552' post='2289553']
Using unfamiliar gear is always likely to cause sound problems. Is there a good reason why the guitarists can't bring their own?
[/quote]

Just logistics.People getting on trains to the practice room in city centre would be a lot more difficult with a twin.

[Beer of the Bass]

Has your bass got the bass-cutting series capacitor on the bridge pickup like the the 4001 does? If not, that might be worth a try for an alternate two-pickup sound with less scooped mids. I have one on a push-pull switch on my bass (even though it's not a Rick) and it removes a lot of the interaction between the two pickups in the mids and lows, leaving you with similar low-end to the neck pickup alone but a lot more high mids and treble.
It would be a lot cheaper than trying new pickups, so I think it would be worth experimenting with.