Struggling to get clean

[brensabre79]

[quote name='Iheartreverb' timestamp='1385556176' post='2289548']
sh*t, How big are those poles!
once you factor in cost on top for correct bridge mount and cover they're only about £15 cheaper than actual Ric's.

But honestly, thanks for showing me these and your advice. If these sound better I'd go for them anyway.
[/quote]

Bridge mount? not sure I follow ya there. I got a set for my Rockinbetter, fitted the bridge pickup onto the Rockinbetter base - it's just particleboard or some such - but it came supplied with one too so I have a spare. It took about 10 minutes to fit.
They sound awesome. I went for the classic sounding one.
Depending on what brand of copy you have you may have to modify the pickguard / mount anyway. For a Rockinbetter the hole for the neck p/u was a bit small so i enlarged it.

I also put the capacitor mod on mine, and yes it does make a difference to the 'mid-scoop' but i prefer the neck pickup alone anyway.

[Iheartreverb]

[quote name='brensabre79' timestamp='1385558552' post='2289598']
Bridge mount? not sure I follow ya there. I got a set for my Rockinbetter, fitted the bridge pickup onto the Rockinbetter base - it's just particleboard or some such - but it came supplied with one too so I have a spare. It took about 10 minutes to fit.
They sound awesome. I went for the classic sounding one.
Depending on what brand of copy you have you may have to modify the pickguard / mount anyway. For a Rockinbetter the hole for the neck p/u was a bit small so i enlarged it.

I also put the capacitor mod on mine, and yes it does make a difference to the 'mid-scoop' but i prefer the neck pickup alone anyway.
[/quote]

I mean one of these [url="http://www.rosetti.co.uk/Product/Rickenbacker-4000-Series-Treble-Pickup-Surround-Ch"]http://www.rosetti.co.uk/Product/Rickenbacker-4000-Series-Treble-Pickup-Surround-Ch[/url]
the one on mine (very similar to rockinbetter) is a slightly smaller completely flat surround. I would want to get this and the cover too.

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='Iheartreverb' timestamp='1385543610' post='2289398']
Yes the middle position is both pickups together although I dont blend them and just have all pots on full. [b]It's true that it sounds very guitar like at this point[/b] but this tone through a clean mid heavy amp is exactly how I want it to sound....just louder.
[/quote]

Worth quickly checking the pickup phase given the volume drop you describe...but I don't know why or how you expect this to cut through against two other guitars through thick-sounding setups. When two or more very similar sounds play together, then the brain really struggles to pick them apart and typically the one that is quieter (even by a tiny bit) and/or starts later gets lost. This is called frequency masking and temporal masking respectively, and is how mp3s are able to throw away 90% of the sound and still sound kind of good. When you mix a band live or in the studio and you want everything to be heard, then you have to find frequency pockets for each voice to sit in. Think of volume across the frequency spectrum like water in a bucket - once a 'bucket' is full, then it's full - you can't just add more water, you can get a bigger bucket but you just hit the same problem only everything's louder (wetter? ).

[quote name='Iheartreverb' timestamp='1385543610' post='2289398']
Surely the only way for me to be heard isn't to play with the exact opposite to the sound I want? You wouldn't say this to a jazz or soul band..."yeah just grind the hell out of the amp". Plenty of bands I like achieve this balance and live this shouldn't be a issue as everything will go through a sound desk and pa so the mix will be there. Its just getting a practice tone right.
[/quote]
If you are playing a sound that's incompatible with the other sounds, then something has to give. And from a mix point of view I can only do so much with the sound a band gives me. If the sound is s**t to start with I can't magically undo that, only mitigate. Loud amps on stage make this problem a lot bigger because I can't suck bad sound out of the air. The bands that achieve the balance you describe normally do so by having instrument sounds that in isolation would each sound a little rough, dull or thin, depending on which area(s) of the spectrum they focus on for each. Heavy but very expensive compression is the other part of the solution in the studio, keep everything at practically identical volumes to minimise the masking effect. Take your example of a jazz band: jazz guitar voicings often leave out the root note entirely, plus they will comp on a rhythm with lots of gaps, Leaves plenty of room for other instruments to fill up both in terms of frequency and in terms of time.

[quote name='Iheartreverb' timestamp='1385543610' post='2289398']
Is there anything else that could help such as a clean boost in my chain that will increase my input before power amp?
[/quote]

Without hearing you these suggestions are all guesses, based on previous experience of common problems - but if the problem is a mix issue then by going louder you will just shift the problem to another instrument, and probably break each others' ears in the process. Unless you're saying that your output is so weak that you can't get the amps close to maximum output even with the master volume on full, then all a clean boost will do is make it easier to overdrive the preamp section that you say you're trying to avoid doing.

[Iheartreverb]

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1385562817' post='2289669']
Unless you're saying that your output is so weak that you can't get the amps close to maximum output even with the master volume on full,
[/quote]

I'm saying I dont want the max output (and gain it brings) but cant hear myself or be heard any other way.

Thanks for your advice, I'm pretty new to playing in this kind of situation.

[gjones]

I would turn your bass volume to zero but jump about as if you're actually playing. See if anybody notices. If nobody does then your guitarists have hogged all the bass frequencies and your playing is superfluous to the overall sound.

In which case I recommend you join a Level 42 tribute band, where your contribution will be appreciated.

[Iheartreverb]

[quote name='gjones' timestamp='1385567634' post='2289741']
In which case I recommend you join a Level 42 tribute band, where your contribution will be appreciated.
[/quote]

the funk makes me uncomfortable

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='Iheartreverb' timestamp='1385564125' post='2289691']
I'm saying I dont want the max output (and gain it brings) but cant hear myself or be heard any other way.
[/quote]

You may fully understand this already but just to be clear, maximum output volume is not the same as high preamp gain. The amplifier section has a maximum output determined by a (fixed) gain multiplier and the rail voltage. You have no control over these and in terms of peak output it doesn't get louder than this whether the signal is clean or dirty. All you can change is the preamp signal and the degree of attenuation of the preamp signal before it hits the amplifier section. Sometimes you get a problem where the preamp peak clean output doesn't allow you to get maximum voltage swings from the amp even with the master volume (the amp input attenuator) on maximum (ie zero attenuation), but that's normally more of an issue with a separate preamp driving a PA-type power amp and this is the situation where a clean boost inserted at the right point in the signal chain can help.

The preamp is normally where the obvious 'dirty' gain is, driving valves, FETs, whatever into saturation and clipping. Dirty sounds louder because the average (but not peak) signal level is increased, and it adds extra harmonics to the signal. A 'clean' compressor also increases the average signal level in relation to the peak, but in a way that doesn't sound so obviously distorted. The only ways you can get more peak volume are by using a more powerful amplifier or by adding extra speakers. But an 810 driven by a hundred plus watts should be capable of absolutely deafening volume, which is why people are suggesting you consider your EQ and that of the guitarists. Your ears hit their limits before that kind of kit will unless you're feeding it lots of subsonic signal. If the main signal content of the sound you like is in the same zone as the guitarists', then whenever you are playing at the same time you will get in each others' way. There is no way round this, but sometimes a small change of frequency centre is all that's needed, not necessarily anything like as drastic as switching to neck pickup alone.

A pickup change, if it helps (and it may well), will do so by changing the sound of the bass much like EQ - a pickup is a filter, same as an EQ module. Hence in a studio, with powerful enough EQ and compression it's possible to get close to all sorts of pickup sounds and configurations with a single input signal, which is more-or-less how Line 6-type emulations work.

It's a lot easier to troubleshoot this kind of thing in person so if you know anyone with experienced ears then get them along to a practice.

Edited November 27, 2013 by LawrenceH

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='bassmachine2112' timestamp='1385541554' post='2289374']
Guitarists in the know use 50 watt or less versions so they can get the sound without destroying buildings [/quote]They also use 112s that can be pushed to break up with 1/4 the power that it takes to do so with a 412. 112s also have twice the dispersion angle of a 212 or 412, with no comb filtering of the highs. The trouble is that the vast majority of guitarists aren't in the know, and buy amps based on what they see their heros using, who use what they're paid to use: the biggest, ie., the most expensive, rigs. This guy, however, is in the know:

[Iheartreverb]

People seem to be losing track of my question a little bit.
I genuinely really appreciate this much advice though, so please don't think I do. This is a great community.

Anyway,

The issue is, I can't get the tone I want at a decent volume. What are my options?

I could get folk to turn down a bit (strangely the guys at the rooms say we are one of the quietest bands they have)

I could DI straight into a mixing desk/pa as all our practice rooms have these. Just find the tone and then turn it up?

I just like a slightly under gained cleaner tone that these amps don't seem to want to do

[JamesBass]

[quote name='Iheartreverb' timestamp='1385637197' post='2290443']
People seem to be losing track of my question a little bit.
I genuinely really appreciate this much advice though, so please don't think I do. This is a great community.

Anyway,

The issue is, I can't get the tone I want at a decent volume. What are my options?

I could get folk to turn down a bit (strangely the guys at the rooms say we are one of the quietest bands they have)

I could DI straight into a mixing desk/pa as all our practice rooms have these. Just find the tone and then turn it up?

I just like a slightly under gained cleaner tone that these amps don't seem to want to do
[/quote]
Firstly do get them to turn down, you're rehearsing, not playing at Wembley, there's no need to be overly loud.

Secondly for your sound if you're in middle position, both pickups selected, turn down the volume knobs just a touch, it often brings both out clearer, I find that on my Ric anyway, or if you'd like a more neck position sound, turn the bridge pickup down just enough to give you a more bass-y tone. Then with your EQ find where your gain breaks up, turn some treble down boost a bit of mid and turn the bass down as well, you'll have more cut that way, remember don't push your volume too much either, you'll break up the signal in the power section of the amp.

Exactly what tone are after? That might refresh some peoples minds

[Conan]

[quote name='Iheartreverb' timestamp='1385502528' post='2289132']
In simpep terms my one is less of a bumm and more of a burrrr

Any advice on how to help my tone? [/quote]

Not sure your description is terribly helpful...

Do you play with a particularly light touch? That will lower your volume for any given setting.

BTW, when people suggest that you change your tone a bit (add more mids, run predominantly on one pickup rather than both on full) it is not because they are criticising your tone choices, but trying to give you the benefit of what has worked for them (and others) in similar situations.

That said, you do seem to have a LOT of problems in your current situation! Two loud guitarists, borrowed gear (which may not be maintained very well, or at all!), a particular tone on your head that may only really work at home, solo, at low volume...

[Conan]

[quote name='Iheartreverb' timestamp='1385567814' post='2289746']
the funk makes me uncomfortable
[/quote]

Quote of the week!

[Iheartreverb]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1385642398' post='2290538']


Not sure your description is terribly helpful...

Do you play with a particularly light touch? That will lower your volume for any given setting.

BTW, when people suggest that you change your tone a bit (add more mids, run predominantly on one pickup rather than both on full) it is not because they are criticising your tone choices, but trying to give you the benefit of what has worked for them (and others) in similar situations.

That said, you do seem to have a LOT of problems in your current situation! Two loud guitarists, borrowed gear (which may not be maintained very well, or at all!), a particular tone on your head that may only really work at home, solo, at low volume...
[/quote]

Yeah I know. I genuinely can't be more thankful for the advice. My description is cack, I know. I just meant I have more gain in my tone than a clean sound.

I do play fairly lightly but more importantly I play fairly high up the body (just slightly off the neck pickup) rather than at the bridge. I've developed a hatred for all these modern gain-y trebly bridge tones.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Iheartreverb' timestamp='1385637197' post='2290443']
The issue is, I can't get the tone I want at a decent volume. What are my options?
[/quote]Either they turn down, or you turn up. In your case that means adding another 810.
In their case they'll invariably whine "But I can't get my tone if I turn down". That's true, because getting their tone means pushing the drivers to break-up. That brings us right back to the same point: to get the same break-up with four twelves versus one means playing 12dB louder. If you're regularly playing at Wembley or the Royal Albert then 412s are justified. Using a 412 in an average club, let alone a rehearsal space, is like using a sledgehammer to swat at a fly.