What happens when the string is played with force?

[martinbass7750]

Hi Guys,

A bit of advice wanted.

I don't know if this is normal behavior or something that my particular bass does.

When I pluck the strings quite hard the sound becomes limited.

It's the same effect as when I wind the threshold up on the compressor on my amp, i.e the volume doesn't increase but the sound becomes 'hard'.

This is hard finger style playing, not popping or slapping, and the compression is wound completely off.

If it's not normal, is it likely to be a problem with the preamp or possibly the pickups?

I play a Lakland 55-01 with bartolini pickups and bartolini NTMB electronics.

Cheers

Martin

[Fraktal]

Thats one of the reasons I hate active basses. Active electronics have a certain headroom and if you reach the ceiling, you either distort or limit the sound.

Of course you can also limit the sound physically, if you set a fairly low action, the string vibration could be limited, but then you would hear a lot of fret buzz.

You say you play hard with your fingers, mind if I ask you where exactly you hit the strings? Usually, the closer to the bridge you pluck the strings, the less the string vibrates, helping to prevent fret buzz/string vibration limits.

Anyway, if you dont notice a lot of fret buzz while playing your bass (unplugged) that means your electronics may have a limiter circuit.

I sold all my active basses because of several reasons. One of them was that limiting effect you might be noticing, but there were several others, such as high frequency hiss, sound coloration and sound degradation. It doesnt really matter how good a built-in preamp is, whenever the pickup signal passes through an electronic circuit, and specially through chips, something is lost. Thats why I try to limit integrated circuits as much as I can, usually relying exclusively on the bass amplifier or PA.

Edited June 27, 2008 by Fraktal

[wulf]

Playing hard does give a different sound. You could try moving the pickups further away from the strings. It might be better just to play a bit softer, turning up your amp if necessary. That saves wear on the strings, bass and fingers.

Wulf

[martinbass7750]

[quote name='Fraktal' post='227992' date='Jun 27 2008, 01:25 PM']Thats one of the reasons I hate active basses. Active electronics have a certain headroom and if you reach the ceiling, you either distort or limit the sound.

Of course you can also limit the sound physically, if you set a fairly low action, the string vibration could be limited, but then you would hear a lot of fret buzz.

You say you play hard with your fingers, mind if I ask you where exactly you hit the strings? Usually, the closer to the bridge you pluck the strings, the less the string vibrates, helping to prevent fret buzz/string vibration limits.

Anyway, if you dont notice a lot of fret buzz while playing your bass (unplugged) that means your electronics may have a limiter circuit.[/quote]

The action is set to Lakland's recommendations, and there's no fret buzz.

I move around the strings, depending on the sound I want. Sometimes near the bridge to get more punch, and sometimes near the neck to get more of an upright bass sound. Generally about halfway between the bridge and the neck, between the two pickups.

[martinbass7750]

[quote name='wulf' post='227995' date='Jun 27 2008, 01:30 PM']Playing hard does give a different sound. You could try moving the pickups further away from the strings. It might be better just to play a bit softer, turning up your amp if necessary. That saves wear on the strings, bass and fingers.

Wulf[/quote]


And sometimes the change of sound is welcome.

I tend not to use compression as I'd rather have more control over my dynamic range, and I guess I'm trying to play louder when I get the compression effect.

I might pop into my local guitar shop and try out some of their basses against mine - that should show me if mine has a problem.

[Fraktal]

You should really try a good bass with 100% passive electronics. There is virtually no limits to your dynamics and sound headroom on one of those. MEC brand crafts some incredibly nice passive pickups. Full of detail, whole frequency spectrum, superb dynamics and you can listen to the slightest nuance of your playstyle.

[martinbass7750]

[quote name='Fraktal' post='228017' date='Jun 27 2008, 01:48 PM']You should really try a good bass with 100% passive electronics. There is virtually no limits to your dynamics and sound headroom on one of those. MEC brand crafts some incredibly nice passive pickups. Full of detail, whole frequency spectrum, superb dynamics and you can listen to the slightest nuance of your playstyle.[/quote]


that would probably rule out my local shop then - nothing over £350 in stock!

But I take your point about active/passive. It's finding somewhere inside a reasonable traveling distance where I can try a decent bass.

[bnt]

The Lakland web page says that bass uses Bartolini MK1 electronics, which I can't find on the Bartolini page... do you know if you have the option of going to 18V (2 batteries) for more headroom?

I don't know Bartolini stuff that well, but I know that EMG say you can go 18V for more headroom, and I did it for a while on my bass with EMG 35- P & -J soapbars. I didn't notice any difference, so I eventually stopped, but it's something to consider if the circuit is designed for it.

[Fraktal]

[quote]that would probably rule out my local shop then - nothing over £350 in stock!

But I take your point about active/passive. It's finding somewhere inside a reasonable traveling distance where I can try a decent bass.[/quote]

You might suffer a shock if you hear some modern basses under 350 pounds. I have a Warwick Rockbass Streamer Standard, completely passive with 2 MEC humbucker pickups and its one of the best basses I have ever tried (sound wise). It was fun when I bought it cos I badly needed a relatively cheap bass to save my other expensive basses from intensive road gigging, and to make completely sure I wouldnt fool myself with personal brand preferences and look styles, I went into my local shop and used a cloth to blind myself, then the shopkeeper handed me all the basses in stock, around 25 of them, anywhere between 300 and 1200 pounds. This was by far the better sounding one, then I was shocked when I removed the cloth from my eyes... A cheap line warwick around 300 pounds? I couldnt believe it, I dont even like warwicks much sound wise. I would have never tried this bass if I werent blinded. Of course, this one could be a particularly good one and I suppose the quality checks for such a cheap line of basses might end up with some horrible basses reaching the shop stocks, but in my experience they are worth a try.

Also, people speak highly about Vintage Modified Fender Squier jazzbasses, fretted and fretless, and these are even cheaper and passive too! Too bad I havent tried one of those yet. Certain OLP models have also very good comments, but Im afraid those are mostly the active ones.

[SJA]

I think even on passive basses the level of the actual note played is limited somewhat as your plucking/picking attack gets harder-

you get more percussive sound of the string hitting the frets, but beyond a point the actual fundamental won't get louder, and may actually get choked.
when recording last year, using my passive Warmoth P, watching the signal Leds on the desk fade out on the last note on songs, I found that the note sustained longer when I played fingerstyle compared with when I played hard with a pick.

I read on Soundonsound an interview with the guy who produced the Jam, who said that Weller & Foxton played very hard, and sometimes he got Foxton to overdub individual notes in places to get more of the fundamental.

Edited June 27, 2008 by SJA

[The Burpster]

off to tech for you.....!

[martinbass7750]

[quote name='bnt' post='228090' date='Jun 27 2008, 03:18 PM']The Lakland web page says that bass uses Bartolini MK1 electronics, which I can't find on the Bartolini page... do you know if you have the option of going to 18V (2 batteries) for more headroom?

I don't know Bartolini stuff that well, but I know that EMG say you can go 18V for more headroom, and I did it for a while on my bass with EMG 35- P & -J soapbars. I didn't notice any difference, so I eventually stopped, but it's something to consider if the circuit is designed for it.[/quote]

I don't know - but it was something I wondered about as well. I've tried contacting Bartolini in the past from their website and not had a response, might try again.

[martinbass7750]

[quote name='SJA' post='228144' date='Jun 27 2008, 04:23 PM']I think even on passive basses the level of the actual note played is limited somewhat as your plucking/picking attack gets harder-

you get more percussive sound of the string hitting the frets, but beyond a point the actual fundamental won't get louder, and may actually get choked.
when recording last year, using my passive Warmoth P, watching the signal Leds on the desk fade out on the last note on songs, I found that the note sustained longer when I played fingerstyle compared with when I played hard with a pick.

I read on Soundonsound an interview with the guy who produced the Jam, who said that Weller & Foxton played very hard, and sometimes he got Foxton to overdub individual notes in places to get more of the fundamental.[/quote]


'begin choked' is g odd description of what I hear - maybe I'm just playing too hard!

[lowhand_mike]

i dont have a lakeland but my ibanez does have mk1 electrics and pickups. can't say i have ever heard the note sounding choked but then i don't play a very hard finger style. it may just be the hard plucking is causing the string to cancel its own vibration (not sure how to explain it) so the sound doesnt 'ring' as long.
also i have found playing too hard actually slows you down as you get too much of the string, play over the string not into it.
let the amp do the work not your fingers, they'll thank you for it in the long run.

[thinman]

I'm really just guessing here - someone who understands the physics of springs etc may be able to give an authoritative view - but is there some law that means the further a string is initially pulled the faster the initial energy will be lost?

I'm just thinking that the harder a string is initially plucked the more it is stretched/tensioned so the faster it will want to retract thus dampening the extra movement, i.e. some sort of law of diminishing returns dictating the amplitude of movement?

Probably a load of baloney but just a thought.

[chris_b]

How hard are you pulling the strings? Maybe you're pulling them beyond the limit of the pole pieces and affecting the pickup responce as a result.

[lowhand_mike]

[quote name='thinman' post='228658' date='Jun 28 2008, 06:14 PM']I'm really just guessing here - someone who understands the physics of springs etc may be able to give an authoritative view - but is there some law that means the further a string is initially pulled the faster the initial energy will be lost?

I'm just thinking that the harder a string is initially plucked the more it is stretched/tensioned so the faster it will want to retract thus dampening the extra movement, i.e. some sort of law of diminishing returns dictating the amplitude of movement?

Probably a load of baloney but just a thought.[/quote]

er thats what i ment

[bnt]

[quote name='thinman' post='228658' date='Jun 28 2008, 06:14 PM']I'm really just guessing here - someone who understands the physics of springs etc may be able to give an authoritative view - but is there some law that means the further a string is initially pulled the faster the initial energy will be lost?[/quote]

Something like that, though other factors will come in to play, such as the coupling with the body etc. Here's how I understand it, after studying springs a bit last year
- the amount of energy stored in a spring is proportional to the square of the displacement (the distance it's stretched by) - so there is a law of diminishing returns in that sense. Pulling it twice as far takes four times the energy.
- the string is vibrating at a given frequency, so if you pull it further off centre, it has to move faster to cover the distance at that frequency. Air resistance is proportional to the square of its speed, and I think the same is true of magnetic field resistance (over the pickups, especially if they are too close).

This is all very theoretical, though! I imagine huge differences between e.g. an old Fender P-bass (wood, dead spots, strong magnets) vs. a neck-through Modulus Graphite with EMGs (extremely rigid construction, weak magnetic fields).

[thinman]

[quote name='bnt' post='228707' date='Jun 28 2008, 08:25 PM']Something like that, though other factors will come in to play, such as the coupling with the body etc. Here's how I understand it, after studying springs a bit last year
- the amount of energy stored in a spring is proportional to the square of the displacement (the distance it's stretched by) - so there is a law of diminishing returns in that sense. Pulling it twice as far takes four times the energy.
- the string is vibrating at a given frequency, so if you pull it further off centre, it has to move faster to cover the distance at that frequency. Air resistance is proportional to the square of its speed, and I think the same is true of magnetic field resistance (over the pickups, especially if they are too close).

This is all very theoretical, though! I imagine huge differences between e.g. an old Fender P-bass (wood, dead spots, strong magnets) vs. a neck-through Modulus Graphite with EMGs (extremely rigid construction, weak magnetic fields).[/quote]
Sounds reasonable to me. In reality it seems pretty obvious that you can't easily get louder and louder by hitting/plucking the strings harder and harder - some limits start to have an effect.

[SJA]

the main limiting factor is the string's vibration cycle being upset when it bangs against the neck-
at some point the string will start contacting the frets/fingerboard.

you could raise the action up very high to get more space for the string to vibrate, but that'll be at the expense of playability on the left hand.

Edited June 28, 2008 by SJA

[Mokl]

martinbass, where abouts do you live? I live in the Gloucester area and used to own a 55-01 with NTMB. If you want to hook up one evening and try some comparisons against some of my motley selection you'd be more than welcome. I could probably tell you whether I think the Lakland is behaving properly compared my experience with one as well, if that would be any use to you?

[martinbass7750]

[quote name='chris_b' post='228679' date='Jun 28 2008, 07:07 PM']How hard are you pulling the strings? Maybe you're pulling them beyond the limit of the pole pieces and affecting the pickup responce as a result.[/quote]
I don't think its excessive - I'm ' digging in'

I played a passive fender tonight (not sure if it was a P or J, excuse my ignorance) and if got muchmore dynamic range than I do on the Lakland, and thais what I'm after.
Th action was a bit higher than mine so I'll try raising it a bit to see what that does. Have to say that I did like the sound of the fender.

It had two very slim pickups - does that identify which it was?

Edit:

Aah - it was an American Jazz, haven't a clue which one as there are so many, but it was silver

I wonder what the 5 string USA Jazz's are like? Have to start another thread!

Edited July 1, 2008 by martinbass7750

[martinbass7750]

[quote name='Mokl' post='228884' date='Jun 29 2008, 09:40 AM']martinbass, where abouts do you live? I live in the Gloucester area and used to own a 55-01 with NTMB. If you want to hook up one evening and try some comparisons against some of my motley selection you'd be more than welcome. I could probably tell you whether I think the Lakland is behaving properly compared my experience with one as well, if that would be any use to you?[/quote]


Hey that would be great. I'm in churchdown, where are you?

[Mokl]

That's funny, I used to live in Churchdown until about 5 months ago! I live just the other side of Newent at the moment. PM me if you fancy meeting up at some point (one of us will have to brave the A40 road works lol!). Can't promise I'll be a lot of help, but I do have a Bart-equipped bass, a good passive Jazz (w/Seymours) and a few other bits and bobs.

[martinbass7750]

I visited Aroundabout Sound in Cheltenham this afternoon, Mark had a play and agreed with me that all was not well. He suggested a new set of strings, and guess what - it's now sorted.

But I tried out a passive Jazz, and that gives me exactly the sound I've been yearning for - so I now own one.

So the Lakland will probably be up for sale once I'm completely convinced the Jazz is what I want.

Thanks for all your suggestions and advice

Cheers

Martin