Avalon U5 - Worth the money?

[shizznit]

I'm starting to see these DI boxes sat on top of bass amps quite frequently over the past couple of years. A close friend of mine who is a pro FOH engineer has worked with several acts that use them and quite bluntly told me to get one!

I often get complaints that my DI signal from my EBS are very hot and a bit of a swine to manage on the desk. I have a cheap Behringer DI that is use from time to time, but after reading up on the Avalon it has way more flexibility.

I was almost set to buy one this morning up until I saw the prices! Are they worth the money? Is there a cheaper alternative brand that does more or less the same thing that someone can recommend?

[jimbobothy]

If you like the passive 'old skool' vibe the Radial JDI is supposed to be pretty good, and being passive needs no power

Edited December 9, 2013 by jimbobothy

[EBS_freak]

Get one of these [url="http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/XLR-BALANCED-ATTENUATOR-IN-LINE-VOLUME-20dB-/190680441716?pt=UK_MusicalInstruments_Other_Pro_Audio_Equipment&hash=item2c6570a374"]http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/XLR-BALANCED-ATTENUATOR-IN-LINE-VOLUME-20dB-/190680441716?pt=UK_MusicalInstruments_Other_Pro_Audio_Equipment&hash=item2c6570a374[/url] and a short XLR cable. Plug the short XLR cable into your head, the other end into this attenuator, then get the sound guy to plug into the attenuator. Job done.

EBS heads cab be a bit of an enemy to desks which haven't got a wide reaching pre or a pad to engage.

To be honest, live, I would be very impressed if people could tell the difference through the FOH system between a DI straight off the head and a dedicated DI. I would only be looking at serious DI boxes like the Avalon if you are recording.

This will solve all your problems and put thoughts of an expensive DI out of your head.

I carry one around with me all the time incase there's any unhappy desks out there.

Same with some Orange heads - they have a very hot DI too.

Hope this helps.

[shizznit]

Cheers EBS_Freak. I'm pretty sure you suggested these attenuators to me a while a while ago when I was having similar problems with my Reidmar amp. At the cost of a KFC meal, I think that is a cracking suggestion.

I totally agree with you about noticing the difference between a DI box or from the amp. You know how nerdy FOH engineers can be about the signals they receive into the desk. We're no different. Other musicians can't tell the difference between nickel or stainless steel strings!

[mike257]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1386612660' post='2302186']
To be honest, live, I would be very impressed if people could tell the difference through the FOH system between a DI straight off the head and a dedicated DI. I would only be looking at serious DI boxes like the Avalon if you are recording.
[/quote]

This is it really - I've used a U5 in the studio and it sounds great. To really get the difference at a gig though, it'd have to be a big enough room that the audience are hearing much more from the rig than they are from the stage and also be a good enough PA to reproduce the signal with sufficient dynamics and clarity. For most of us, that's rarely the case!

I know of at least one BC member who has used the U5 into a power amp as his bass rig and spoke highly of the result, but if you're just looking to augment your live sound you could probably get most of the way there for a lot less cash with the suggestions above!

[tayste_2000]

Had one and it's a lovely sound but overkill unless you're in a touring act.

I'd roll with the Radial JDI, it's better known in sound engineer circles and it's a just a clean passive DI box.

[EBS_freak]

Overkill even if you are a touring act! Only reason why I could think why you would want one on tour, is if you are recording the performances. Otherwise, go straight from the DI on the amp - any serious gigs will usually have the PA guys insisting on you plugging straight into a DI anyway, with a through to your amp - just so front of house/recording remains uneffected if your amp goes AWOL. Less chance of a DI death than an amp death... and it means that if you choose to mess with the dials on your amp, it won't effect the PA engineers mix or the recording... (you'll just pee everybody off when you touch the preamp on your bass)

If you do want a great sounding DI, that is great for recording and live use, at a bargain price, you could do a hell of a lot worse than this - [url="http://www.orchid-electronics.co.uk/classic_DI.htm"]http://www.orchid-el.../classic_DI.htm[/url] - I've got a batch of his mini DIs too, they are superb also - and always get interest from the AV teams that I have worked with.

Edited December 11, 2013 by EBS_freak

[shizznit]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1386758861' post='2304036']
If you do want a great sounding DI, that is great for recording and live use, at a bargain price, you could do a hell of a lot worse than this - [url="http://www.orchid-electronics.co.uk/classic_DI.htm"]http://www.orchid-el.../classic_DI.htm[/url] - I've got a batch of his mini DIs too, they are superb also - and always get interest from the AV teams that I have worked with.
[/quote]

£36 sounds a lot more appealing than £400!

I have also looked at the Radial DI's. The more research I do the more I am steering away from the Avalon. I agree with you EBS_Freak. I think that the Avalon would be great if I was being recorded into a Pro Tools rig every night, but beyond that it's a luxury I could probably live without. Yeah, it would be nice to use at my home studio too, but I am getting by very comfortably without one currently.

It would be nice to be able to control the gain level because of my hot headed EBS amps. My old EA iAmp 500 had that feature and was very useful when using a powerful active bass. An attenuator is a great solution, but -20db sounds like quite a big cut to me.

[shizznit]

Just called Orchid Elextronics. A Classic DI is on its way to me! I'll take a punt for £36.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1386758861' post='2304036']
Overkill even if you are a touring act! Only reason why I could think why you would want one on tour, is if you are recording the performances. Otherwise, go straight from the DI on the amp - any serious gigs will usually have the PA guys insisting on you plugging straight into a DI anyway, with a through to your amp - just so front of house/recording remains uneffected if your amp goes AWOL. Less chance of a DI death than an amp death... and it means that if you choose to mess with the dials on your amp, it won't effect the PA engineers mix or the recording... (you'll just pee everybody off when you touch the preamp on your bass)
[/quote]

Why as bass players are we so ready to give away control of our sound and seemingly so paranoid about our equipment failing?

Just look at the typical guitar set up: An instrument far more likely to break a string and might even be fitted a device that is going to test rapid changes in string tension to the limits. This in turn is fed into a floor full of pedals which add many extra metres of wiring to the signal path as well as introducing cables and power supplies of varying levels of reliability into the mix. This then connects to an amp which will be either all valve or packed full of micro-circuitry, and then right at the very end of the signal path a microphone is stuck in front of one of the speakers. This is all perfectly acceptable practice, and if as a PA engineer you suggested anything different you'd be met with downright hostility.

Even as a guitarist when I tried to get the PA to use the RedBox DI on the back of my H&K amp to reduce microphone clutter on stage (and I knew from experiments in the studio that the difference in sound was negligible over a decent mic) I was greeted with puzzled looks.

There is so much more to go wrong in the average guitar rig, yet sticking a microphone on the final component in the signal path is done without thinking. Why can't bass players be treated in the same way?

[Chrismanbass]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1386937602' post='2306584']
There is so much more to go wrong in the average guitar rig, yet sticking a microphone on the final component in the signal path is done without thinking. Why can't bass players be treated in the same way?
[/quote]

it depends entirely on context of the gig and what you have to work with for certain types of music or gigs using a clean DI signal is the easiest way to get the bass to come through in a general band mix unfortunately bass mic'ed means that you will pick up a lot of noise from other sources which you would eq out of any other mic which you can't from a bass mic because you'd be cutting at the frequency you actually want to hear the problem is magnified on a small stage because of how close everything is.

a mic on a bass cab can work well if there is decent separation between sound sources this is why you would see big touring bands using mic'ed bass cabs on stage as the bass rig is sufficiently far away from other noise sources that the majority of the sound is actually bass, also if there is something specific you want to get out of it for example if the bass player is using lots of effects then they are generally translated better through a mic than a di signal.

If and engineer is worth his salt he will speak to you about whats going on in your sound and what equipment your using before soundcheck i've found from experience players generally know their equipment better than i do but i know what works in that room to make the band sound good. i've argued with players before about what to use generally with double bass players about mic/DI signal use, but at the end of the day its the players sound

but anyway we're getting back into the pre/post di territory from a few months ago

hope that helps to explain why some engineers have an aversion to mic'ing bass cabs

Edited December 13, 2013 by Chrismanbass

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1386937602' post='2306584']
There is so much more to go wrong in the average guitar rig, yet sticking a microphone on the final component in the signal path is done without thinking. Why can't bass players be treated in the same way?
[/quote]

Because bass players are far more easy going.

[Chrismanbass]

I figured i should probably try and be helpful on topic as well

i've not had any practical experience of the Avalon, however we use Radial DI's at my venue and they're lovely nice and transparent and i've never had a problem with one

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='shizznit' timestamp='1386934999' post='2306544']
An attenuator is a great solution, but -20db sounds like quite a big cut to me.
[/quote]

There's loads out there -10db for example. I carry round a -20db because I know without fail that all desks are going to be able to work with the signal, even if it is on the low side.

[molan]

[quote name='mike257' timestamp='1386719868' post='2303800']
This is it really - I've used a U5 in the studio and it sounds great. To really get the difference at a gig though, it'd have to be a big enough room that the audience are hearing much more from the rig than they are from the stage and also be a good enough PA to reproduce the signal with sufficient dynamics and clarity.

[/quote]

I saw a band, The Sway Orchestra with Nick Owen on bass, with precisely this setup last night and it sounded seriously good.

U5 DI into the PA and a little 2x10 cab on stage as a monitor.

Top notch PA and at least 1,000 people.

Sway are one of the very best functions bands in the country - rammed the dance floor from start to finish!

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1386941572' post='2306651'] I saw a band, The Sway Orchestra with Nick Owen on bass, with precisely this setup last night and it sounded seriously good. U5 DI into the PA and a little 2x10 cab on stage as a monitor. Top notch PA and at least 1,000 people. Sway are one of the very best functions bands in the country - rammed the dance floor from start to finish! [/quote]

I don't despite that the U5 is a good piece of kit... but I would wager that a lot of that tone shaping was coming from the desk still... and of course, the fingers!

Where did you see them? Aren't these guys playing at your daughter's wedding?

[molan]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1386943374' post='2306669']


I don't despite that the U5 is a good piece of kit... but I would wager that a lot of that tone shaping was coming from the desk still... and of course, the fingers!

Where did you see them? Aren't these guys playing at your daughter's wedding?
[/quote]

I can't say how much of the tone was coming from the U5 but Nick is a fine player

It was a big ball at The Great Room, Grovsenor House, Park Lane. Should have been with Alexandra Burke but she couldn't make it so Lamarr took the first set.

It was the full 12 piece band, seriously impressive. We can only afford half of them for the wedding, lol.

[EBS_freak]

Absolutely - you don't get with bands like that without cutting the mustard! Man can't survive on an Avalon U5 alone!

The Great Room is on my hotel venue bucket list. Got the Savoy ballroom checked off this year so maybe next year for the Great Room. I saw your check in at the Grovsner on FB and wondered if you were in the Great Room!

Big bands like that are hard work - had a 13 piece for a while - but we agreed there's little point at the moment because the amount of gigs for them are rare... and getting more so... People haven't got the cash to splash and it's the same names that are already established and got a foot in the door that are picking these gigs up. The 5-7 piece is working wonders for us... this year has been a record year and next year is already looking to beat this year.