wrist/hand strength.

[timbo1978]

Just wondering if anyone has employed any particular methods for building strength in their wrists/arms/hands?

Was thinking of getting one of those power ball things? I still get achy after playing for a couple of hours, despite trying to improve my technique - really want to start the new year by shaking off this problem!!!

[Fionn]

You've got the right idea. A gyroscope powerball is a great training aid for building wrist/ forearm/ grip strength. I'm not an upright bass player, but I use a gyroscope almost daily to maintain and develop forearm and grip strength for rock and ice climbing. I use mine when I'm sitting around watching tv, etc. Be persistant and you'll notice a huge difference, really.

[Cat Burrito]

Plus one on the powerball... exactly what I used to get me up to match strength and when I haven't practiced for a while. You can get them on Amazon cheaply enough.

[EssentialTension]

I can't see the point of a powerball or anything similar. I'd say, the best thing to do to build strength in wrist, arms, or hands for playing bass is to play bass.

[icastle]

[quote name='Fionn' timestamp='1387234820' post='2309831']
You've got the right idea. A gyroscope powerball is a great training aid for building wrist/ forearm/ grip strength. I'm not an upright bass player, but I use a gyroscope almost daily to maintain and develop forearm and grip strength for rock and ice climbing. I use mine when I'm sitting around watching tv, etc. Be persistant and you'll notice a huge difference, really.
[/quote]

I use one for the exact same reason.

It's benefit for bass playing is a welcome added bonus.

[Fionn]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1387236430' post='2309852']
I can't see the point of a powerball or anything similar. I'd say, the best thing to do to build strength in wrist, arms, or hands for playing bass is to play bass.
[/quote]

You'd understand if you used one, really.

Sure, playing bass all the time will gradually make you stronger. However, using a training aid like a gyrpscope will make you [b]much[/b] stronger, [b]much[/b] faster, and in a way which meets the physical requirements of bass playing. This is not a replacement for bass playing. It's a means by which to gain some physical advantage. I've been using a gyroscope as a conditioning aid for rock climbing for the last 5 years or so, almost daily. A gyroscope will give you forearm, wrist, and grip strength that playing bass simply wont.

[Fionn]

[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1387239222' post='2309870']
I use one for the exact same reason.
[/quote]

Have your axes seen battle yet this season?

[icastle]

[quote name='Fionn' timestamp='1387239705' post='2309874']
Have your axes seen battle yet this season?
[/quote]

Unfortunately not.

I can't justify the trip on my budget at the moment, but I'll be up there next season.

[ubassman]

[quote name='Fionn' timestamp='1387239486' post='2309872']
You'd understand if you used one, really.

A gyroscope will give you forearm, wrist, and grip strength that playing bass simply wont.
[/quote]

I have used them before. They have a strong pulling motion as you try to stabilise the spinning motion of the ball. Gyroscopes definitely challenge the muscles in the hand and the forearm (in particular) and will develop strength no shadow of a doubt.

Although been there, done it, seen it , I dont use one. For me good though they are, they are not bass specific and dont challenge the exact muscles needed for playing. There are plenty of exercises that do target the specific muscles and give refinement to ones playing, and develop fine muscle memory at the same time. Building up strength whilst making controlled movements on the fingerboard is important and very rewarding.

Edited December 17, 2013 by ubassman

[ubassman]

Try looking up Max Dimoffs warm ups, or Duncan McTiers daily exercises. The key with all of these is to improve technique whilst developing strength. It means that the muscles are being trained to perform and fire in a very specific way rather than to just be strong.

To illustrate heres a simple receptive 8 note pattern ( dubbed "Rings Way") by Ring Warner that I find physically is a real workout for the left hand, when played at speed :-

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________[list]
[*]Start with the 1st finger on the F of the low E string.
[*]Play the following 8 note finger pattern getting good definition with intonation 1242 1424 ( i.e. F, F#,G,F#, F, G, F#, G )
[*]Remember the pattern and then slide up a half step to F# and repeat the 8 note pattern with accuracy.
[*]Carry on chromatically next starting the pattern on the G note , then G# and finally the last pattern starting on the note A .
[/list]
Now, heres the test of your skill - continue the pattern on the A string with the first finger starting on the Bb. If you have climbed successfully with accurate intonation on the E string and have hit the A perfectly then when you move to the Bb on the next string , it will sound spot on. If you havent climbed the E string successfully and your A is actually a bit sharp or flat (compared to the open A string as a reference ) then start again until your intonation and finger positioning is spot on. You can keep on going sliding up the A string then onto the Eb on the D string etc up to Ab on the G string etc.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The exercise needs to be played slow at first but then working to a fast tempo its a real workout for the fingers. The idea in the low positions is that you train your muscles to gain strength by elongating and contracting specifically to hit the right notes. There are plenty of other drills that strengthen and condition the specific muscles that you use when playing the double bass. Look up Clarks Thumb position drills, Gary Karrs "Vomits" etc

A gyroscope has its place but develops muscles to withstand the forces generated by a gyroscope. Granted, may be of value to some players but wont make you a better player in the process!

[Bilbo]

I am no expert on this but do feel able to refute the suggestion that power and strength are what is needed here. I prefer to use the term 'grace' in that you need to get the muscles in your hands, which are already plenty strong enough to do the job, to work together efficiently to allow you to execute your ideas without tensing up and gripping too hard.

One of the issues I have identified is the [i]psychological[/i] impact of playing on your hands. I can play for hours at home on my own without any difficulty but the minute I get to play with a band at higher volumes (without any reall attempt to soundchecks etc), I tense up and play harder, thereby wearing myself out quicker. This is not going to be improved by powerballs and weights but by learning to get the best out of my bass set-up, pick-up configuaration and amp/cab set-up, to learn to control my unconscious impulse to dig in in an effort to compete with the other musicians and to consider other issues such as speaker placement etc.

Personally, I feel that the strength that you need to climb rocks is not the same as the muscular dezxterity and finese you need to play our chosen instrument. Good warm ups and a sensible approach to the differing demands of practice, rehearsal and live work work for me.

I also advocate for proper rest, fluids, a working knowledge of Alexander techniques and an ergonomic keyboard (to allow you to rest your wrists)!!

[Hector]

I'm with UBM on this one - there are plenty of calisthenics/exercises that you can do on a bass to tune your muscles. I'm a huge fan of this book, which I've gone back to to get in shape after time off: [url="http://www.davidgage.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=98"]http://www.davidgage.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=98[/url] But I appreciate there are other exercises out there which are likely just as good.

I would say on a related note, that I have decided that I think that the whole idea of never practising "unmusical" technical exercises is tosh. I used to agree, but have changed my tune a bit. I think of it in terms of cognitive load - you can only focus on a few things at a time. Exercises are good for fine-tuning your technique and being able to totally focus on micromanaging the movements of your fingers. What does everyone else think?

[ubassman]

+1 on the Alexander Technique Bilbo. The idea of 'gorilla grip' strength isnt something that I feel is part of my playing either - quite the opposite really. My touch feels always nimble and light using my whole arm and shoulder. At the same time stamina in the fingers is important and thats where building up exercises really are very valuable as well. I seem to have a lot of runs in low positions in my orchestral work where the fingers are wide apart and my hands are good and strong to deal with having to play the dots on the paper.

Hector, not come across Dr Mortons book - I do have a lot of time and respect for his work at the U.S. School of Double bass and interestingly enough have been working through his triangulation fingering method along with Tom Gale's etudes. At only $7.00 I think this may well slip onto the Christmas List !

[Marc S]

Some useful hints and suggestions here folks
Personally, I find as a relative newbie to the wonderful world of DB playing,
my left arm aches quite a lot, after playing a while

This has lessened a bit as I'm playing more DB than bass guitar lately
I's probably just playing, and doing some bass exercises will help me here

Let us know what works for you timbo

[mtroun]

[quote name='Marc S' timestamp='1387291290' post='2310315']
Personally, I find as a relative newbie to the wonderful world of DB playing,
my left arm aches quite a lot, after playing a while
[/quote]

To echo Bilbo, the best cure for arm ache is not stronger arms but less wasted energy. Just spending 15 minutes at the start of a practice session working each hand separately (I go with bow, left hand with bow, then right hand pizz) and using the least amount of pressure/effort necessary to produce a sound does wonders to my projection, volume and quality of sound. The fact that I'm using much less energy is just a bonus.

[FLoydElgar]

Lift iron drink whey! Get swole as fk

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Fionn' timestamp='1387239486' post='2309872']
You'd understand if you used one, really.
[/quote]
No, I wouldn't.

[quote name='Fionn' timestamp='1387239486' post='2309872']
Sure, playing bass all the time will gradually make you stronger. However, using a training aid like a gyrpscope will make you [b]much[/b] stronger, [b]much[/b] faster, and in a way which meets the physical requirements of bass playing. This is not a replacement for bass playing. It's a means by which to gain some physical advantage. I've been using a gyroscope as a conditioning aid for rock climbing for the last 5 years or so, almost daily. A gyroscope will give you forearm, wrist, and grip strength that playing bass simply wont.
[/quote]
It's bass playing not rock climbing. Bass playing simply does not require forearm, wrist and grip strength in the way you portray it.

[timbo1978]

Thanks for all your comments!

Yes, I can see how playing the bass is the best exercise for bass playing. I guess because it is the bass that is causing the discomfort I was looking for something else for a solution. I have heard of the Alexander technique but will read into it some more, and will try those exercises in the first instance.

A good motivator to practice more frequently if nothing else!

[oggiesnr]

When I broke my wrist my physio included a moldable putty (think kid's silly putty) which comes in several strengths (I have the medium and the hard ones) which I was meant to knead for half an hour a day. It worked. I'm still using it to try and keep my fingers and wrist moving in cold weather.

Steve

[ubassman]

Timbo, if you are interested , this is quite a good kindle edition resource for AT specific for Double Bass http://www.amazon.co.uk/Alexander-Technique-Approach-Double-Bass-ebook/dp/B004JKMSSE

Alternatively you can buy it as a PDF here http://www.ethankind.com/ebooks.html ( when you pay via PayPal you need to state what book you are after - as Ethan Kind has written on many subjects!). Well worth the read.

[ubassman]

Hasten to add that the title is :-

[b] An Alexander Technique Approach to Double Bass Technique[/b]

[timbo1978]

[quote name='ubassman' timestamp='1387321149' post='2310794']
Hasten to add that the title is :-

[b] An Alexander Technique Approach to Double Bass Technique[/b]
[/quote]

Got it!

[jakenewmanbass]

Grip strength is one of the most overrated ideas that people seem to (IMO falsely) hold about playing DB
It's not about grip, its about finger strength and dexterity supported by forearm, upper arm, shoulder, lats, deltoids, and ultimately all core muscles.
Using muscles in a grip specific way is likely to hamper the finesse required for DB playing, I was a caver (with a little climbing) in my youth and the type of strength encouraged by those activities was in my experience unhelpful, creating tightness and lack of flexibility, so much so that I gave that (and Ju Jitsu) up because I could feel the restrictions they placed on my playing and I also worried about the injury risk.
Playing bass is THE best exercise for playing the bass and no amount of gadgets will replicate that, general strength can be achieved with other types of exercise which is [i]potentially[/i] beneficial, but I would monitor any developments for evidence of restrictions to playing mobility and always seek to remain flexible.
Yoga!

Edited December 22, 2013 by jakenewmanbass

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='Hector' timestamp='1387281380' post='2310114']
I'm with UBM on this one - there are plenty of calisthenics/exercises that you can do on a bass to tune your muscles. I'm a huge fan of this book, which I've gone back to to get in shape after time off: [url="http://www.davidgage.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=98"]http://www.davidgage...?products_id=98[/url] But I appreciate there are other exercises out there which are likely just as good.

I would say on a related note, that I have decided that I think that the whole idea of never practising "unmusical" technical exercises is tosh. I used to agree, but have changed my tune a bit. I think of it in terms of cognitive load - you can only focus on a few things at a time. Exercises are good for fine-tuning your technique and being able to totally focus on micromanaging the movements of your fingers. [b]What does everyone else think?[/b]
[/quote]

I agree Hector, there is a nice place that can be found by just doing things right, forgetting about whether you're playing a good line etc can allow you to focus on the purity of execution, which can be most enjoyable, especially when it becomes part of you as a player and you then see it come out in your playing...

[fatback]

[quote name='jakenewmanbass' timestamp='1387738794' post='2315115']
I agree Hector, there is a nice place that can be found by just doing things right, forgetting about whether you're playing a good line etc can allow you to focus on the purity of execution, which can be most enjoyable, especially when it becomes part of you as a player and you then see it come out in your playing...
[/quote]

In relation to this, how do you get the right balance in practice time between the various demands?

I'm terrible for getting things out of kilter, so a few weeks on scales and my right hand speed goes to pot. Partly stubbornness I think. I'm inclined to battle at a thing until time runs out.

Any suggestions about how to balance out practices so that strength, dexterity, musicality, ear, reading etc all get attention but don't get spread too thinly either?

Not too far from the OP I hope, as we need all of the above and more. And if anybody has got a tip for living to be 120, please include in your reply.

Edited December 24, 2013 by fatback